400 ppm

[the moors in england]

http://bluemoon.ucsd.edu/co2_400/mlo_one_week.png

 

Discuss

[ORH_wxman]

Well its not the first time in the history of the earth as the subtitle suggests.

[Snow_Miser]

Well its not the first time in the history of the earth as the subtitle suggests.

 

Yeah, it's happened many times in Earth's history. Over the last 500 million years or so, we're in a period of fairly low Carbon Dioxide concentration overall:

 

[icebreaker5221]

It's certainly a significant event, as CO2 hasn't exceeded 400 ppm (or 350 for that matter) for at least the last 400k years. 

 

However, it wasn't exactly unexpected based on any linear extrapolation from the last 30 years. 

[tacoman25]

What were people saying 15-25 years ago about 400 ppm and the significance for our climate?

[ORH_wxman]

 

What were people saying 15-20 years ago about 400 ppm and the significance for our climate?

 

Its a nice round number is what it is. A thread could have been made for 397.5 ppm too and its the same thing.

On an annual average we're at about 395ppm right now since spring/early summer usually sees a seasonal spike. We'll hit 500ppm by about 2050.

[tacoman25]

 

 

Its a nice round number is what it is. A thread could have been made for 397.5 ppm too and its the same thing.

On an annual average we're at about 395ppm right now since spring/early summer usually sees a seasonal spike. We'll hit 500ppm by about 2050.

 

Oh, I know. I just figured since it was a nice round number, perhaps there were predictions from back then about what it might mean for our climate.

[bluewave]

The significance of the number is that it was associated with higher sea levels in the past.

But the good news for our generation  is that it will take a very long time for the sea levels

to catch up.

 

http://noc.ac.uk/news/new-study-documents-natural-relationship-between-co2-concentrations-sea-level

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/03/1216073110.abstract

 

By comparing reconstructions of atmospheric CO₂concentrations and sea level over the past 40 million years, researchers based at the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton have found that greenhouse gas concentrations similar to the present (almost 400 parts per million) were systematically associated with sea levels at least nine metres above current levels.

 

 

Professor Rohling said, “Sea level rises to these high values will take many centuries, or even millennia, but the implications from the geological record are clear – for a future climate with maximum warming of about two degrees Centigrade, that is with CO₂ stabilized at 400 to 450 parts per million, sea level is set to steadily rise for many centuries, towards its natural equilibrium position at around 24 ⁺⁷/_-15metres, at 68 per cent confidence. In Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change terms, this is a likely rise of at least nine metres above the present. Previous research indicates that such rises above present sea level may occur at rates of roughly one metre per century.”

Based on these results, which document how the Earth system has operated in the past, future stabilization of CO₂ at 400-450 parts per million is unlikely to be sufficient to avoid a significant steady long-term sea level rise.

[salbers]

Yeah, it's happened many times in Earth's history. Over the last 500 million years or so, we're in a period of fairly low Carbon Dioxide concentration overall:

 

 

Maybe the first in 10 million years, thus covering the period of hominid evolution.

[The_Global_Warmer]

Maybe the first in 10 million years, thus covering the period of hominid evolution.

 

 

truth.

 

Humans did evolve with the Mega-beasts. 

 

Then the Mega beasts went extinct when our species attained the mantle of sentience. 

 

Obviously sentience is not tied to this climate exclusively.

 

But we need vast regions of ideal conditions to feed 9-12 billion humans.

 

We can't even come close to feeding 7 billion now.  But that is also in part due to human selfishness.  The ideal that we have a right to resources millions of times more than we need on a daily basis.  Is a horribly misguided ideal.  Since the majority of people supporting it do not have anywhere near that in resources at their disposal. 

 

We have lost over a trillion tonnes of ice annually in 2010-2012. 

 

4.3 trillion from 2002-2010 not counting GIS and the South Pole.

 

 

The global temperature scheme has surely given folks who might normally find a trillion+ tonnes of ice mass loss as a problem or a precursor to disaster as a right off.  They blame it on pattern mostly and think it's just going to stop or even reverse.

 

Like the entire scientific community is wrong and it's all a bad dream. 

 

Thanks to the super nino then PDO and sun the illusion of security can once again be attained by those who wish to deny the reality.

 

 

Professor Rohling said, “Sea level rises to these high values will take many centuries, or even millennia, but the implications from the geological record are clear – for a future climate with maximum warming of about two degrees Centigrade, that is with CO₂ stabilized at 400 to 450 parts per million, sea level is set to steadily rise for many centuries, towards its natural equilibrium position at around 24 ⁺⁷/_-15metres, at 68 per cent confidence. In Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change terms, this is a likely rise of at least nine metres above the present. Previous research indicates that such rises above present sea level may occur at rates of roughly one metre per century.”

Based on these results, which document how the Earth system has operated in the past, future stabilization of CO₂ at 400-450 parts per million is unlikely to be sufficient to avoid a significant steady long-term sea level rise.

 

 

 

Since we are headed to way higher methane and Co2 closer to 600-700 PPM when it peaks if not higher.

 

Damn.

[Jonger]

Maybe the first in 10 million years, thus covering the period of hominid evolution.

truth.

Humans did evolve with the Mega-beasts.

Then the Mega beasts went extinct when our species attained the mantle of sentience.

Obviously sentience is not tied to this climate exclusively.

But we need vast regions of ideal conditions to feed 9-12 billion humans.

We can't even come close to feeding 7 billion now. But that is also in part due to human selfishness. The ideal that we have a right to resources millions of times more than we need on a daily basis. Is a horribly misguided ideal. Since the majority of people supporting it do not have anywhere near that in resources at their disposal.

We have lost over a trillion tonnes of ice annually in 2010-2012.

4.3 trillion from 2002-2010 not counting GIS and the South Pole.

The global temperature scheme has surely given folks who might normally find a trillion+ tonnes of ice mass loss as a problem or a precursor to disaster as a right off. They blame it on pattern mostly and think it's just going to stop or even reverse.

Like the entire scientific community is wrong and it's all a bad dream.

Thanks to the super nino then PDO and sun the illusion of security can once again be attained by those who wish to deny the reality.

Professor Rohling said, “Sea level rises to these high values will take many centuries, or even millennia, but the implications from the geological record are clear – for a future climate with maximum warming of about two degrees Centigrade, that is with CO2 stabilized at 400 to 450 parts per million, sea level is set to steadily rise for many centuries, towards its natural equilibrium position at around 24 +7/-15metres, at 68 per cent confidence. In Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change terms, this is a likely rise of at least nine metres above the present. Previous research indicates that such rises above present sea level may occur at rates of roughly one metre per century.”

Based on these results, which document how the Earth system has operated in the past, future stabilization of CO2 at 400-450 parts per million is unlikely to be sufficient to avoid a significant steady long-term sea level rise.

Since we are headed to way higher methane and Co2 closer to 600-700 PPM when it peaks if not higher.

Damn.

Why not blame humans that reproduce in conditions they can't afford to raise a child in? I personally waited until I was 27 before having children, stop blaming myself and ancestors for migrating when it was time to migrate and positioning ourselves for success.

A trillion tons of ice sounds like a lot, until you realize there is probably a million times this on earth. It's going to take a few hundred years before sea level rises enough to really matter and by then fossil fuels will be Long gone and co2 will be in decline.

[The_Global_Warmer]

Why not blame humans that reproduce in conditions they can't afford to raise a child in? I personally waited until I was 27 before having children, stop blaming myself and ancestors for migrating when it was time to migrate and positioning ourselves for success. A trillion tons of ice sounds like a lot, until you realize there is probably a million times this on earth. It's going to take a few hundred years before sea level rises enough to really matter and by then fossil fuels will be Long gone and co2 will be in decline.

 

 

Migrate?  our ancestor's left the fertile lands of Europe.  Essentially committed genocide to native Americans and enslaved African's.  That is conquest, not migration.  I am not even sure what you mean by that really.

 

Secondly.  You are privileged.  I bet you grew up with shelter, food, water.  Bet you love the social services like hospitals, police, fire protection, schools, roads and so on. 

 

I would give up all of my security right now for a shot to give everyone the same security we have if it was feasible.

 

You sound like the typical privileged Man who can't fathom a life barely able to obtain water, food, and shelter.  To not live in fear everyday of rape and murder.  It does nothing to help anyone to talk about oneself with such hubris.

 

I bet you wouldn't know what a snow mobile is if you grew up in the darkest ghetto's in Detroit or St. Louis.  Which is a 10000000 times better than growing up than another 2 billion humans face world wide if not 3 billion.

 

You speak as if the folks living on Java, the Sudan, Jews in 1943 decided to be where they were from birth.  Like they should take some sort of responsibility.  That is not always the case. 

 

you nor I did anything to deserve this easy kush life. We should be focused on how? and helping bring all of humanity to this level of living vs blaming anyone for what or who they are.

 

 

You need to read about positive feedback's and understand that this is about to get so much worse.  Going from collecting ice or a slow burn off to the current trillion tonnes per year was easy.  Easier than going from today's ice melt to 3 or 4 or 5 trillion tonnes per year.

 

And the arctic is going to continue to warm much faster than the mid and lower lats.

 

 

I am not trying to argue with you.  But I believe it's our responsibility to help other humans who have less than we do.

[Jonger]

Why not blame humans that reproduce in conditions they can't afford to raise a child in? I personally waited until I was 27 before having children, stop blaming myself and ancestors for migrating when it was time to migrate and positioning ourselves for success. A trillion tons of ice sounds like a lot, until you realize there is probably a million times this on earth. It's going to take a few hundred years before sea level rises enough to really matter and by then fossil fuels will be Long gone and co2 will be in decline.

Migrate? our ancestor's left the fertile lands of Europe. Essentially committed genocide to native Americans and enslaved African's. That is conquest, not migration. I am not even sure what you mean by that really.

Secondly. You are privileged. I bet you grew up with shelter, food, water. Bet you love the social services like hospitals, police, fire protection, schools, roads and so on.

I would give up all of my security right now for a shot to give everyone the same security we have if it was feasible.

You sound like the typical privileged Man who can't fathom a life barely able to obtain water, food, and shelter. To not live in fear everyday of rape and murder. It does nothing to help anyone to talk about oneself with such hubris.

I bet you wouldn't know what a snow mobile is if you grew up in the darkest ghetto's in Detroit or St. Louis. Which is a 10000000 times better than growing up than another 2 billion humans face world wide if not 3 billion.

You speak as if the folks living on Java, the Sudan, Jews in 1943 decided to be where they were from birth. Like they should take some sort of responsibility. That is not always the case.

you nor I did anything to deserve this easy kush life. We should be focused on how? and helping bring all of humanity to this level of living vs blaming anyone for what or who they are.

You need to read about positive feedback's and understand that this is about to get so much worse. Going from collecting ice or a slow burn off to the current trillion tonnes per year was easy. Easier than going from today's ice melt to 3 or 4 or 5 trillion tonnes per year.

And the arctic is going to continue to warm much faster than the mid and lower lats.

I am not trying to argue with you. But I believe it's our responsibility to help other humans who have less than we do.

The poorest region on earth, which I'm sure we are both discussing is Africa. The problem isn't that they aren't getting help, its that warlords are dictating where the resources go and use starvation against rival tribes. I really think the UN should just govern Africa, this would probably reduce much of the ills you are referring to.

Anyhow, this is way off topic. Not much action in this forum to begin with, I'm obsessed with alternative power sources and future society as much as anyone here. I spent much of last night reading up on nuclear fusion.

[bluewave]

The poorest region on earth, which I'm sure we are both discussing is Africa. The problem isn't that they aren't getting help, its that warlords are dictating where the resources go and use starvation against rival tribes. I really think the UN should just govern Africa, this would probably reduce much of the ills you are referring to. Anyhow, this is way off topic. Not much action in this forum to begin with, I'm obsessed with alternative power sources and future society as much as anyone here. I spent much of last night reading up on nuclear fusion.

 

If the technology progresses as hoped, we may be looking at a gradual transition away from fossil fuels during the

second half of this century. The research that they are doing on hydrogen looks like it has a similar timeline. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/one-giant-leap-for-mankind-13bn-iter-project-makes-breakthrough-in-the-quest-for-nuclear-fusion-a-solution-to-climate-change-and-an-age-of-clean-cheap-energy-8590480.html

 

http://www.slb.com/~/media/Files/resources/oilfield_review/ors05/spr05/03_hydrogen_a_future_energy.pdf

[Jonger]

If the technology progresses as hoped, we may be looking at a gradual transition away from fossil fuels during the

second half of this century. The research that they are doing on hydrogen looks like it has a similar timeline. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/one-giant-leap-for-mankind-13bn-iter-project-makes-breakthrough-in-the-quest-for-nuclear-fusion-a-solution-to-climate-change-and-an-age-of-clean-cheap-energy-8590480.html

 

http://www.slb.com/~/media/Files/resources/oilfield_review/ors05/spr05/03_hydrogen_a_future_energy.pdf

 

I'm guessing when either of these technologies are utilized 100%, we should be able to decrease co2 levels with burying bio-char. Slash and cook entire tracts of northern hemisphere forests and replant. The current problem with bio-char is trying to use a zero emission heat source in order to convert wood pulp to char. 

 

http://forecast.uchicago.edu/Projects/archer.2009.ann_rev_tail.pdf

 

Interesting paper on co2 lifespan.

[bluewave]

I'm guessing when either of these technologies are utilized 100%, we should be able to decrease co2 levels with burying bio-char. Slash and cook entire tracts of northern hemisphere forests and replant. The current problem with bio-char is trying to use a zero emission heat source in order to convert wood pulp to char. 

 

http://forecast.uchicago.edu/Projects/archer.2009.ann_rev_tail.pdf

 

Interesting paper on co2 lifespan.

 

I am just hoping that we don't get so bogged down with global economic issues that scientific research gets cut back

that would lead to a gradual transition away from fossil fuels. Asia is burning more coal now and Germany will add

more coal plants to replace their nuclear reactors when they go offline. But maybe places like China and India

will think about turning more toward natural gas over the next 20 years or so as they are having serious air pollution

problems now.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-27/germany-to-add-most-coal-fired-plants-in-two-decades-iwr-says.html

[The_Global_Warmer]

I apologize to jonger for being so harsh. But talking about things like 925 million humans per day going hungry are very upsetting.

Its inexcusable at this point.

[PottercountyWXobserver]

I apologize to jonger for being so harsh. But talking about things like 925 million humans per day going hungry are very upsetting.

Its inexcusable at this point.

Capitalism will find ways of keeping people hungry if AGW doesnt

[The_Global_Warmer]

Capitalism will find ways of keeping people hungry if AGW doesnt

 

 

 

The amazing part is how the people with the money and with money comes perceived power have gotten so many intelligent people manipulated into thinking the world can't go round without capitalism.

 

People hear words like socialism and freak out like their 2300 ft home is gonna be taken or something or taxes will be raised to the point that they have no money, yet they do not seem to grasp or can't let go of the fear that if we eliminated the money system or went to a much higher tax system we could reshuffle our federal government with the United States Military's help to open some new departments, for example:

 

1.  A department to oversee that every American, every single one starting with the people born here to feel out how it would work. Would be in charge of making sure every American had their "card" or vouchers for an allotment of water or other safe consumable liquids for our survival and that we recieve enough food as well for whatever general diet scheme they come up with.

 

I would start with lowering sugar in American Foods.  Go with say 150-200g carbs, 60-75G fat and 75-100g protein for adult males.  And a bit less for females, maybe more carbs and a bit less protein.  That comes out to near 200 calories.  I am going off the top of my head.  Alcohol would be separate, will get to that in a minute.  but essentially every American citizen attm and every one who is born will go into this system at the start every outlet for water, liquids, food would have access to a country wide data base with our information on our personal ration supply.  This is separate from folks still making money to buy luxery items like say a 5 buck starbucks vs say the govt ration of 2 cups of coffee per day for anyone 16 or older.  Just an example.  It wouldn't be in place to end the choice of free market to ensure no one goes hungry in our Country, no one, it's a start.

 

2.  A department overseeing substance abuse.  First off we legalize marijuana across the board.  Again folks will be allowed to personally grow a certain amount or can purchase it for a very fair price at one of a thousand or so dispensaries.  These places will be open during daylight hours.  By charging for the govt grown and highly regulated marijuana it will help off-set the cost.  People who choose not to work or can not find work can volunteer at these places for possibly a low wage or free marijuana as compensation.  We would also have to release all people from jail solely in the can for marijuana crimes as well as reduce sentences to folks with other crimes but drop the marijuana penalty's.  Given the laid-back nature of this substance, current social establishments such as bars, bowling alleys, sporting events, restaurants, parks and so on will be able to decide on their own if use at their facility is allowed.  People will be 100 percent responsible for their actions in public under the influence.  People will clearly be allowed to use at home or anyone's home that says it's fine.  Like alcohol a panel will deeply review how to punish high drivers who disturb the safety of the societal public.

 

ALCOHOL-  This is a tough one.  While Mary Jane is pretty benign, the truth is, booze effects humans and societal safety big time and tens of millions of Americans are addicted to it and would suffer bad health issues with an immediate withdrawal of the sauce.  I believe over a period of 5 years booze will become a major part of the ration program and will be highly regulated but still legal.  In that time hundreds of new care centers and thousands of new trained helpers will be brought in to help people get there booze issues under control.  Instead of punishing them and taking the booze away, overtime we withdrawal the amount of booze available to them.  So they have a chance to slowly adapt and can get extensive help for the personal repercussions.  For instance if someones issue a 5th of whiskey a day and they don't want to quit that immediately they can continue and over a few years be down to a half a 5th and by year 5 be down to either no drinking or whatever the daily acceptable range is like 2-4 12 oz beer equivalent drinks. 

 

It will take time, but alcohol is basically poison at higher levels and has to be widdled out of our society, it's not like the open to smoke some Mary Jane won't be there and professional help, support, love, hope, and comfort.  Once we are down to the daily 2-4 drink per day personal limit for adults age 21 and up.  While some will get around this buy sharing with others, trading food for it.  Most will be ready to abide, DUIs and alcohol related deaths will nearly vanish.

 

3.  Other drugs.  We currently are in the middle of a pharmaceutical drug crises.  The fact is opiate based pain killers are ruining millions of lives, likely teens of millions.  They are their own horrible black market.  Home-made super speed like Methamphetamine is also out of control.  But even any progress on that is being ruined by the insane jump in prescription based stimulants like Adderall(Amphetamine Salts), Methylphenaldate, which is Ritalin, and lots of other newer time release technological brands.  These drugs are rampantly replacing caffeine and ephedra(banned). 

 

Time to UN-ban Ephedra and regulate again how much 18 yr olds and up can purchase or pick up with voucher rations per day, week, or month.  But it should be legal and a personal choice, given it has a very low impact on society safety. 

 

We also have to legalize Adderall, Ritalin and others all low impacts on society safety unlike booze which is a horrible killer.  If booze wasn't so dangerous to others beside the user it wouldn't be so bad.  These stimulants can also be easy made for cheap and rationed out and under strict safety protocols. 

 

Caffeine would be regulated more but still widely legal with small amounts in certain drinks under the Food and water program or folks if they have the money or credit can go to Starbucks.

 

Heavy drugs like Crack, Coke, Heroine, Meth and others will not be legal unless they can be proven as not a threat to society.  There will be far far far more places, programs, social help for addictions and the United States truly closes off the entry of these in the County. Of course the line between personal freedom will be tough to tow but we have to make changes.

 

 

4.  Healthcare will be completely free to all Americans.  Two major things will make this possible.  The cost of becoming a care giver(Doctor, Nurse, specialist whatever) will be greatly reduced or eliminated.  We will help compensate the teachers and such who help train these professionals in some way if needed.  Maybe even train many military people who qualify and want to practice medicine.  Obviously more medical facility's will be opened to accommodate the American population. 

 

5.  The Auto industry and transit will see amazing overhauls to smart roads, smart cars, but smart mass transit, rail, plane, boat, shuttle systems, and long range travel. 

 

We will create a huge network of smart roads/train cylinders that will connect the entire US like the highways, but instead of folks driving as non communicators on highways traveling 80 MPH.  We will tare up a ton of the current mass transit roads and roads in large urban areas and innovate smart roads not everywhere but sections, the roads will be much safer in any weather, some will be imbedded with solar panels, all with fiber optics or other information transitory networks that will have access to all vehicles on them to help auto guide certain needs.  Maybe even be able be like temporary long range battery systems transferring electricity possibly to cars or homes or storing daily solar intake to help power the Country at night.  These roads will have the ability when its 10F to warm up and not only melt any ice/snow but also dry off the roadway as quickly as possible. 

 

We will add thousands of Shuttles designed to fly from city to city like our current jets but be closer to the ground.  We can innovate a launch pad that will use it's power to launch the shuttle out at high speeds like 500  mph or more.  So say a shuttle is rocketed out of Boston to NYC.  The Shuttle will have an engine with thrusters to supplement it's slow down once its on it's own but it will be super light and aerodynamic so it will be easy to stay in air at high speeds.  this will unclog roads some and create smaller mass transit between cities within 500 miles of each other.

 

The rail system would be revamped nation wide. As of 2012 the maximum commercial speed on most high-speed rail lines was about 300 km/h (185 mph).  With time, technology and a revamp smart energy grid that is tied to all electric uses on the grid I bet we can double that speed.  We can ensure safety with sensors every few meters in the track ensuring structural integrity is good to go.  With the short range shuttle program and the revamped nationwide rail system people can commute for hospital care, work, pleasure in very short periods of time.  A 350 mph train ride from STL to CHI would take 50 min or so. Quite amazing. 

 

6.  WHERE WILL THE ENERGY COME FROM?  It will come from many clean sources all tied into a binary power grid system, over seen by humans controllers and primarily ran by super computers.  We can innovate easily the ability to use massive solar and wind power.  Also look into cleaner Fission and possibly break into fusion, possibly use natural gas and coal for a supplement until we can get off of them for good. 

 

7.  We will recycle freaking everything that can be recycled fairly clean and cheap, everything.  No more dumping any possible recyclables in land fills. 

 

8.  We will give NASA the main goal to build space ships to take us to other planets or local asteroid belts to eventually mine the minerals and elements we can use on Earth.  We will also separate NASA from the weather industry and create a sole department to monitor our climate on a level way beyond now, extremely vigorous to try and keep the Earth as stable and clean as possible.

 

9.  Education will be revamped and required for all humans in the US for 17 yr old and under.  They will be prepared to walk into a vocation of any kind if they qualify, or higher education, join the military or homeland military used to make some of this happen.

 

10.  For those who don't want to work. If workers are needed for jobs and they are shorthanded, based on their skills, place of living, gender, age, and so on people will be required to spend a certain amount of time filling in until enough workers are willing.  Everyone who works a job to help our society will get bonus things above the basic needs that are giving to us from birth as inalienable rights. 

 

An example would be time allotted, like a time share credit to take vacations to places for free of course, maybe credits to get luxury items that are not in the basic needs program. Also possible different living arrangements.  Instead of basic needs, they earn to live in a home with a yard with more rooms and better accommodations.  Service to society will be rewarded very well.

 

11.  All Weapons not used for game hunting will be banned and recycled to help build new structures over a couple decades this will strictly enforced to give people plenty of time to adjust. 

 

 

LASTLY FOR NOW- WHAT ARE BASIC LIVING RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS.

 

1.  Adequate supply of water(liquids) and food for life.

2. Shelter- Likely living complexes built for different needs.  A 23 year old single male who doesn't work will be given a 500 sq foot apartment with a bed space, cooking area, living room with Cable/Internet TV, free access to broadband, entry level television/internet device(will be merged to fit all needs).  Entry level communications/information sharing device, think newer cell phones.  Access to educational databases, schooling over these devices to help try to get into different programed for work if wanted. 

 

3. If a person chooses not to work unless called upon for periods of time to meet requirements as long as they don't break societal law/rule they can sit on their ass all day and play video games.  It's there right of free will as a member of humanity.  They will just be living at the entry level standard that all humans should have a birth right too. 

 

Doing this will help eliminate crime, hopelessness, all poverty, and change the culture of our species to one of Freedom, Self Determination and a true pursuit of happiness. 

 

4.  If said person has a child or a mate they will be moved if they choose to a larger living space to accommodate each person in the living space.  Is it fair if a 22 year old woman has 4 kids and gets moved to a 1500 ft living space with multiple technologies?  Maybe not.  But I believe with the full education of all humans under age 18, they will make smarter choices. 

 

5.  Orphans will be taken care of as good as any other child in a family unit.  With the money system gone.  Family's will be able to take care of their own elderly instead of homes.  Tens of thousands of possible new workers can switch to care give for orphans in community living with education as good as any in the Country.

 

6.  We will design computers to help supplement some needs like education, maybe even home health care.

 

7.  All humans will never loose these basic rights, if they are sent to a detention center, upon their release they will have the same basic rights as before. 

 

 

lastly:  No human will be in poverty, starving, dehydrated, and without care, shelter, basic modern technology needs because of the system again.  One way or another I believe we can do this, it may take a full century to complete but we can do this and take off the horrible shackles of capitalism and move on to another level of living for our every expanding species.

 

 

I just wrote this in the last 30 min or so, it's very incomplete and just thoughts, I know I do not have all the answers, it will take thousands of peoples if not millions of opinions and ideas to make this happen, I welcome all thoughts on how we can do this.  if you care to open a dialogue, please engage in open conversation about you're thoughts and idea's so we can have a healthy conversation on how to eliminate the major problems in our Country/World and bring all of humanity to a basic acceptable level of living.  Thank You, I look forward to a dialogue on this.

[ben4vols]

I really think the UN should just govern Africa, this would probably reduce much of the ills you are referring to.

 

The UN isn't filled with choir boys either. 

[ben4vols]

please engage in open conversation about you're thoughts and idea's so we can have a healthy conversation on how to eliminate the major problems in our Country/World and bring all of humanity to a basic acceptable level of living.  Thank You, I look forward to a dialogue on this.

 

Your first step would be to realize there isn't a solution that will eliminate the major social problems in our World nor is there a solution for all of humanity to have a basic acceptable level of living (whatever that means).  Neither Capitalism nor Collectivism are going to solve these problems.  They have both been tried over the last 200 years and neither have proven to be the answer, therefore one must be able to resign themselves that there may not be an answer.  How much money has the US spent on social welfare programs over the last 30 years and where are we today? 

 

Some of our founders were very well educated men.  Very well read in history and philosphy.  Their answer was neither capitalism (being in the form it is today, corporate capitalism) nor collectivism.  The only real answer is to let people be free and let them reap the consequences of that freedom whether they be positive or negative. 

[hazwoper]

Good lord. Can someone move Friv's nonsensical post to off topic please?

[The_Global_Warmer]

Your first step would be to realize there isn't a solution that will eliminate the major social problems in our World nor is there a solution for all of humanity to have a basic acceptable level of living (whatever that means).  Neither Capitalism nor Collectivism are going to solve these problems.  They have both been tried over the last 200 years and neither have proven to be the answer, therefore one must be able to resign themselves that there may not be an answer.  How much money has the US spent on social welfare programs over the last 30 years and where are we today? 

 

Some of our founders were very well educated men.  Very well read in history and philosphy.  Their answer was neither capitalism (being in the form it is today, corporate capitalism) nor collectivism.  The only real answer is to let people be free and let them reap the consequences of that freedom whether they be positive or negative. 

 

Where do you see humans in 100 years? 500 years?  1000 years? 10000 years? 100,000 years? 

 

Our population has exploded because of our ascension into a higher level of manipulating our surroundings.  While you may very well be correct that humans can't/won't come to a better way to fix the problems currently plaguing our species.  I find it terrible hard to believe that we "can't".  Those founders were smart Men. And they gave us one hell of a template to work from, just like the Magna Carta and English Bill of Rights gave them to work from.  With that said, those same Men signed off that African decedents, basically anyone with blackish colored skin were worth 3/5th's of a Man and they allowed them to be owned by other humans, stripped of their freedom and self determination while they wrote up a brilliant document to fortify their own free will.  It seems to be they were enlightened in some ways but in the dark in others.  As great as they were constructing the constitution and staging the most important rebellion in human history they were ignorantly short sided on other things.

 

Now I understand if those Men were all born between 1970 and 1980 there would be almost a 100 percent chance they would be appalled that such brilliant Men would do such a thing. I know many of them secretly shared thoughts on how bad the bigotry was and some felt they had no choice or the USA wouldn't be formed.  But today such a notion is completely unacceptable.

 

Today's human society is far more tolerant, compassionate, intelligent, empathetic than that one or even the one 100 years ago.  Once again with the birth of the internet another ERA of Post Modern Human Enlightenment is taking place. 

 

Click Here to read about the astonishing rise our species(Human, including neanderthals and others who helped contribute to the diverse gene pool, helping natural selection move along a bit faster, helping modern Man ascend to the Mantle of the biological mammalian Gods.

 

Our species is mortal, but for biological life on EARTH, Humans are essentially GOD'S of the kingdom of all life from the start billions of years ago to now.  No species has ever dominated like us.  No species has ever learned to manipulate their world, but then ASCEND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER TO become more dominate, to make life easier and richer, and better for humans. 

 

When you sit back and just look around and take in the year 2013 and the things we have done. 

How can you then believe we have any limits? 

We are anatomically almost identical to the archaic humans and identical to humans at the end of the Neolithic Revolution. 

 

Everyday after checking for any new research on human genetics and evolutionary changes, Science has found we have evolved our higher cognitive functions essentially twice in the last 5-30K years, but no sign of it going back at least 5K years ago and some say up to 8-10K.  So that would imply we are genetically the same as humans who just learned how to till land to grow crops, who had no cohesion on a medium level or larger, almost no art, no written record, no education, only early and simplistic written language started 5000 years ago or so and certainly was very local and limited.  very slow to change and adapt. 

 

Then the first huge explosion in human awareness/intelligence/technology/social constructs and so on took place.

The trigger like most leaps for humans was fueled by mass education, sharing knowledge, humanity went from 1,000K humans on Earth possessing higher knowledge to millions in a blink of an eye.  The Infamous human adaptation once again showed up, this time more mental than physical. 

Our ability to change our views of our little world around us exploded in many cultures and we pushed to ascend.

Unfortunately we were still not organized enough to hold on to it before we let it crumble by the side of our greatest weakness IGNORANCE.

 

Maybe our species needed to be dethroned and humbled and forced again to go back to our reliance on compassion, empathy, spirituality, love so we could survive.  We were essentially in the dark for nearly a 1000 years, the population graph below show's it well. 

However we still pushed on for change and  better way even in the dull-drums of ignorance.

It only took a few of us to take parts of our understanding of our reality quickly to new levels, we developed new technology like the telescope which gave us proof of how big our reality was, this not only spurred on social change in doctrine it spurred human imagination and curiosity to keep pushing for more.

 

And we did.  In 500 years time after being here for 220,000K years our species ascended to the thrown of Gods.  What we couldn't see was that as we expanded our knowledge, technology, climbed the ladder of science and understand, built machines to let us see the walls of the Universe we slowly started to shed our primal survival ways and slowly started to transform and share on a mass scale never fathomed. 

 

More important that all else is the fact that no step up the ladder of knowledge and understanding has our Data ever become beyond our comprehension. In fact nearly every human alive if properly taught can fathom, construct, and view the massive Universe in their head, concieve 200-400 billion galaxy's and the uncountable Stars.  We have almost traced the entire history of our reality from Heavy Elemental creation in dying super novas to the moment the incomprehensible release of energy apparently helped cause Dark Energy to expand much faster in nano-seconds quickly leaving so much room between the outside walls of the dark matter/energy for the light energy to cool and form particles of matter and anti-matter. 

 

A Human created this graph with the help of other humans showing a simple understanding of the Universe our entire reality as we can see it from our limited scope on Earth.

 

12-30K years ago Man walked with MegaBeast in small nomadic tribes using small scale strategy to migrate and hunt prey to survive.  Those humans are us. 

Today we buy our food at markets, grow it in our back yards, use technology to enhance it, use technology to easily kill it or catch it. 

 

What no water?  No problem, let's build a filtration plant or salt removing plant.  Unreal.

 

From what I understand we have essentially manipulated almost all of the modern large crops to not only yield the max energy we can get give our technology we also played God to create food's that benefit our needs more specifically. 

 

We literally forced almost every large Apex predator in our way 65k-1K years ago into extinction.  Only the ones smart enough and adaptable enough to stay away from where we want to be survived.  but none violent and large as a threat were spared.  We may of only did it on accident out of ignorance during over hunting.

 

However it shows the amazing power of humans to adapt and manipulate the world to fit our needs. 

 

Ironically before even more large apex predators like Lions, whales, our Primate Cousins The Great Apes went extinct by our hand we adapted again to other sources of material, food, we have allocated plenty of land for them to survive, slowly we are leaving them be and slowly as humanity continues to educate itself are we learning respect for life and these amazing creatures instead of not stopping before we annihilate all of them.  It's truly amazing.

 

On top of that we literally created modern domestic dogs and cats.  We took both species in as our "pet's" or companion's" and created entire new species of animal with the Canine's and Feline's that we call Dog and Cat.  We forced hippo-campus growth on early Dog's we transformed on accident from wolf overtime to make them loving and loyal the survival trait's that only a few version of Hominid posses at the level Dogs can love Man. 

 

Cat's while not evolved to love us and share the great bonds humans can share also evolved to be less aggressive, less intrusive and wild, they have grown a tremendous ability to learn and adapt.  We have found domestic Kitty's behavior is bendable and shape-able., they can learn in their short lifespans unlike there most recent relatives in the wild.  Cat's have even learned to use toilets and flush them after taking a nice big ****.  How convenient.  Ironically even if they evolved this kind of learning ability it couldn't be used until Humans invented plumbing and the use of indoor toilets.  Amazing the level of human influence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there is one thing human's can't ignore, it's simply "Conception & inception".

 

Humans can not, no matter how hard they try to UN-know something.

 

Perfect example...look at the dramatic change in how humans perceived and acted on their view of social rights and concepts.

 

From the moment the first few people became aware of something being ethically wrong like slavery, it may of taken another 100 years or so to end it, but it was inevitable. 

 

Gay marriage is inevitable, deep down every human will eventually accept the simple understanding that not allowing two same sex humans to Marry the one they love would be a direct violation of the concept of Freedom, Free Will, Self Determination.  The most powerful beliefs we hold at our core.  Once those beliefs were taught rampantly accross the Earth.  We power stuggled over them.  See WW1 and WW2, the US Civil War.  One group couldn't come to terms with it as quickly as another but:

 

 

WE ALWAYS PROGRESS EVEN WHEN WE REGRESS FOR A LITTLE WHILE.  HITLER'S LEADERSHIP HELPED US REGRESS AND INFLUENCED SOME HUMANS TO DO INCOMPREHENSIBLE THINGS.  AND WHILE SOME FORMS OF THAT KIND OF INHUMANE GENOCIDE EXIST WE HAVE STILL MADE PROGRESS OF LEAPS AND BOUNDS TO MOVE AWAY FROM THAT EVER HAPPENING ON THAT WIDE OF A SCALE AGAIN. 

 

AMERICAN'S IN LESS THAN 200 YEARS ABOLISHED SLAVERY, CHANGED LAWS TO MAKE ALL GENDERS EQUAL, CHANGED LAWS TO GIVE ALL PEOPLE OF ALL SKIN COLOR EQUAL RIGHTS.

 

AND NOW WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF GIVING ALL PEOPLE OF ALL GENDER OF ALL SKIN COLOR ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF SEXUAL/ROMANTIC EXPRESSION AND WILL. 

 

 

THERE WAS ALWAYS OPPOSITION TO THESE CHANGES BUT THEY ALWAYS SUCCUMB. 

 

IT'S 2013 AND THE GOD'S OF THE EARTH CONTINUE TO EVOLVE THERE SENSE OF MORALITY, ETHICAL UNDERSTANDING, OUR COMPASSION AND EMPATHY CONTINUE TO GROW WHILE OUR AGGRESSIVE HATRED SLOWLY DIES.

 

OH AND OUR WILL AND ABILITY TO MANIPULATE THIS EXISTENCE IS EXPOTENTIALLY EXPANDING AND GETTING FASTER.

 

WE HAVE ONLY SCRATCHED THE SURFACE OF HOW THE INTERNET AND ACCESS TO ALL HUMAN KNOWLEDGE TO 7, 8, 9, 10 BILLION HUMANS WILL CHANGE OUR SPECIES AND PROPEL US TO FURTHER ENLIGHTENMENT AND GROWTH.

 

IF I WASN'T A 30 YEAR OLD MAN LIVNG IN 2013 IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO FATHOM I AM PUTTING DOWN IDEAS IN A WRITTEN LANGUAGE ON A TEMPLETE THAT WHEN I PRESS ADD REPLY BILLIONS OF OTHERS WILL HAVE ACCESS TO MY THOUGHTS, MY WORDS, JUST LIKE I HAVE ACCESS TO THEIRS.

 

 

JUST LOOK AT JONGER AND I.  WE ARE THE EPITOME OF WHAT MAKES HUMANS SO BRILLIANT.  WE CLASH WITH OUR WORLDLY VIEWS AND OTHER THINGS, BUT WE BOTH WAN THE SAME THING.  IF WE WERE TASKED WITH MAKING SOME SORT OF CHANGE HAPPEN, IT WOULD BE HARD AND MIGHT TAKE DECADES TO HAMMER IT OUT BUT OVERTIME WE WOULD ADAPT TO COMPROMISE WITH OUR PLANS AND WORK IT OUT BECAUSE WE WANT THE SAME OUTCOME, THE BETTERMENT OF ALL MAN KIND.

 

 

I apologize for being so long winded, the different colors and font sizes.  It's just how I roll when I put thoughts on paper with passion, or computer screens .

 

It leaves me again to ask you the same question I opened with...considering humanity is on a Warp 9.9 track to more ascending......

 

where do you see humans in 100 years? 500 years?  1000 years? 10000 years? 100,000 years?

[The_Global_Warmer]

Good lord. Can someone move Friv's nonsensical post to off topic please?

 

 

7-15K children are going to die today of starvation, that is like one for every letter I type almost if not even faster.

 

In a year that will be 2.5-4 million.

 

Outside of those, millions of children right now, in the present, in this moment are crying in agony, hopeless, and terrified wondering if they will ever eat another morsel of food again of if they are going to die next.  MILLIONS OF CHILDREN. 

 

Son's and Daughter's of humanity in unfathomable horrible terror just because they don't have access to food and water. 

 

I have 300 gallons of water stored in my shed for the "JustinCase" situation and a few hundred packs of various pasta packages, not to forget 10 huge buckets of whey protein I purchased for super cheap online. 

 

My family income is pretty crappy.  I have no desire to accumulate material wealth.  I live in a land of such plenty that with careful cunning planning I can live a kush life that I get to spend most of my time on learning, entertainment, playing games and spending time with loved ones with no worry on Earth except the safety of the people I love to get threw each day healthy and safe.

 

It's so good for me that I even put together an emergency stash of resources that would help my family survive if the entire system broke, unless we get killed.  We even have different pain meds and anti-biotic stored up for medical problems.

 

Yet, I can instantly close my eyes and envision a run down village of 10,000K people on the bank of a cesspool river with half of those people about to die of starvation and I have no power to help stop there suffering from my lot in life because it takes the majority of the super privileged like me to change the situation they are in.

 

Discussing ways we can start to make change to end this kind of suffering maybe in the US first but eventually globally is not non-nonsensical.  every human life is precious and as important and valuable as any other hominid to ever exist.

 

Now if they mods think this is off topic, I understand and they can feel free to move this to Off-Topic, I would highly appreciate they don't delete these words but drop them in that thread with the title: Think Tank to End all Human Suffering.

[SVT450R]

I am just hoping that we don't get so bogged down with global economic issues that scientific research gets cut back

that would lead to a gradual transition away from fossil fuels. Asia is burning more coal now and Germany will add

more coal plants to replace their nuclear reactors when they go offline. But maybe places like China and India

will think about turning more toward natural gas over the next 20 years or so as they are having serious air pollution

problems now.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-27/germany-to-add-most-coal-fired-plants-in-two-decades-iwr-says.html

Agreed they need to do something and fast i don't think they really have much of a choice look at Beijing for example it's getting out of hand over there with air quality having to walk around with a mask on it's a shame.

[PottercountyWXobserver]

Good lord. Can someone move Friv's nonsensical post to off topic please?

It is NOT nonsensical!, and it really isn't that off topic. There is no denying that capitalism and consumerism is the main blame for most of the AGW and human issues we face today globally. Capitalism teaches we should compete against each other at all cost and to consume random products that end in the landfill a few months to years later. It is inefficient, it is wasteful, and it promotes inequality. Our political system is to blame for the slow actions taken against AGW!! Yes, individual humans are also to blame, but the system allows for markets to be in control of everything, and if it isn't PROFITABLE, nothing good ever gets done without legislation. People shouldn't even be given a choice between fossil fuels and renewables, it should be RENEWABLES only period! Just like our government shouldn't allow landfills and garbage produced by useless consumerism that drives the capitalistic machine of inefficiency. We destroy ourselves and our environments! Why? because of the system we live in and the economic and social injustices that exist. Sad thing is, it doesn't even remotely have to be like this, we only do it to ourselves

[hazwoper]

Potter, I work for one of the largest renewable energy companies in the world. And I must tell you everyone of them is out to make a profit. Also, everyone at my company would literally fall off their chair laughing at your comment that it should be renewables only. Solar is still well behind as a utility scale generating source. Wind, well as we all know, it isn't always blowing. Renewables are certainly no where near apoint where they can possibly be the ONLY choice. Add to that the increasing difficult permitting landscape with increased cut-speeds at many sites located nearest the load centers to decrease take of federally listed bats and our precious renewable generation plan finds itself in an ever increasingly uncertain world.

Don't fool yourself. Renewable technologies have not made the leaps and bounds they have in the past decade due to companies wanting to save mankind, they made those leaps with legislation put in place to make renewable energy profitable. Without that legislation (a distinct possibility) we will see advancement fall dramatically. The biggest issues besides legislation at this point, natural gas prices.

[hazwoper]

The Federal govt would never be able to take on technological advancement. Just look at the quasi government agency NASA. They have fallen so far behind they are looking to private for profit companies to get them to space.

What Friv is proposing as far as I am concerned is communism. And guess what, it has failed miserably. Sure, Capitalism isn't perfect, but to this point it most certainly has been the best system. Allowing this country, and the world for that matter, to have made the incredible strides we have even in my lifetime.

[nflwxman]

Potter, I work for one of the largest renewable energy companies in the world. And I must tell you everyone of them is out to make a profit. Also, everyone at my company would literally fall off their chair laughing at your comment that it should be renewables only. Solar is still well behind as a utility scale generating source. Wind, well as we all know, it isn't always blowing. Renewables are certainly no where near apoint where they can possibly be the ONLY choice. Add to that the increasing difficult permitting landscape with increased cut-speeds at many sites located nearest the load centers to decrease take of federally listed bats and our precious renewable generation plan finds itself in an ever increasingly uncertain world.

Don't fool yourself. Renewable technologies have not made the leaps and bounds they have in the past decade due to companies wanting to save mankind, they made those leaps with legislation put in place to make renewable energy profitable. Without that legislation (a distinct possibility) we will see advancement fall dramatically. The biggest issues besides legislation at this point, natural gas prices.

 

Hazwoper, I also work for a large renewable company.  Yes, I agree an all renewable energy portfolio (in the next 2 decades, at least) is out of the question.  You have to admit though, it's quite impressive that wind energy has comprised 30-40% of the new power producing facilities in the US over the past 5 years.  This for a technology that was barely applied 20 years ago.  Yes, the permitting landscape has gotten more difficult, but Wind and Solar Energy conversion systems have gotten more exponentially more productive, meaning there will be the need for fewer wind turbines and solar panels for the same volume of energy.  It's really the ultimate defense for our industry against an increasingly hostile permitting environment.  I think we can both agree technology advance in the wind and solar field has been drastic.

[hazwoper]

And yes I do understand that the legislation put in place (production tax credit) would be considered a socialist policy as it is a handout of sorts, but only because the government knows it has no business what-so-ever in advancing technology. They leave it to folks that have something to work for to innovate and help the process by giving tax credits for actual production by MWhr. This further stimulates advancement as folks want to make more money with larger more efficient turbine (for instance) and the cycle continues.

Wow. Capitalism really does work