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March 24-25 Winter Storm Threat


Mitchel Volk

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I don't agree at all, especially when "it's only a matter of time" was backed up with a ton of meteorological reasoning and dismissing it was not.

No offense but there is no amount of "reasoning" (meteorological or otherwise) that could validate a statement like "it's only a matter of time" when discussing a SECS along the coastal plain in late March.

The ugly attitude that comes out here upon any anti-snow suggestion is really a problem and largely unprecedented wrt the other forums here.

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Another :facepalm: thread. Makes me want to hang out in the central PA thread more often.

 

I think what was meant was that some kind of a major low would develop somewhere due to the block, not that it was a matter of time before we got hit. Timing differences/changes are still crucial in how and where a storm can form/track.

 

 

This. People take statements way too literally. 

 

And I'm sorry, after Sandy, the October snow bomb of 2011, and the November 7 snowstorm, I really don't care that much about climo. I mean yes, it's something to consider, but that's about it. The airmass is actually much more sufficient for the medium and long range than it was for the March 8 event. 

 

If we don't get snow from this pattern, it won't be because it's late March. It's always tough to get a snowstorm. But the pattern being progged is much more similar to a February pattern than a late March one, considering how far south we are getting blocking, and the historic magnitude of it. That in itself is already not climo. Not climo patterns usually do not produce climo results. 

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12z JMA has a blizzard for next Monday the 25th.  It has a 988mb low about 100 miles off the NJ Coast with 1-1.5 liquid already having fallen and more to come.  At 168 hrs it has the low near Cape Hatteras, it then gets captured by energy that dives down from central Canada and bombs it out and pulls it north to about 100 miles off the NJ Coast.  The Euro also shows this energy diving down, but has everything delayed until 240 hrs.  The JMA has this setup at 192 hrs, which does fall more in line with our pattern of a Monday into Tuesday storm. It has 850 temps around -5 or -6 and surface temps around freezing. The Euro is usually too slow with the systems in the longer range and the GFS is usually too quick, so this fits nearly perfectly, although even this may be a bit too quick. 

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What did the 12z Euro show? Nothing?

 

 

It continued with the day 9-10 storm as opposed to the one the GFS was focusing on, but it was suppressed. Suppression is certainly a possibility in this pattern, but it does appear likely that a major storm system is going to form somewhere in the day 6-10 period. 

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This. People take statements way too literally. 

 

And I'm sorry, after Sandy, the October snow bomb of 2011, and the November 7 snowstorm, I really don't care that much about climo. I mean yes, it's something to consider, but that's about it. The airmass is actually much more sufficient for the medium and long range than it was for the March 8 event. 

 

If we don't get snow from this pattern, it won't be because it's late March. It's always tough to get a snowstorm. But the pattern being progged is much more similar to a February pattern than a late March one, considering how far south we are getting blocking, and the historic magnitude of it. That in itself is already not climo. Not climo patterns usually do not produce climo results. 

 

well said...much better than my previous post.

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I don't agree at all, especially when "it's only a matter of time" was backed up with a ton of meteorological reasoning and dismissing it was not.

 

A ton?

 

Favorable blocking and an active Pacific being mentioned don't necessarily equal "a ton" of reasoning.  It also does not deserving saying "it's only a matter of time" when many, many other "favorable" patterns have yielded nothing.

 

Granted, climo isn't much to work with either but c'mon...

 

I'm not saying it will or will not snow next week (way too early to commit either way) but most reasonable people are not going to fan the flames of weenie hype based on long range modeling.

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12z Control run of the Euro bombs the low to 976mb about 50 miles NE of Cape Hatteras at 234 hrs, then slides it northeast and out to sea, missing us.  It produces one heck of a storm that just misses us to the south and east. The thing to note here is how much further north and west and how much stronger the storm is than what the operational run of the model shows.  That is what is interesting here.

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Again, 24 hrs ago we were noting the 240 or 216 hr euro. See the problem?

12z Control run of the Euro bombs the low to 976mb about 50 miles NE of Cape Hatteras at 234 hrs, then slides it northeast and out to sea, missing us. It produces one heck of a storm that just misses us to the south and east. The thing to note here is how much further north and west and how much stronger the storm is than what the operational run of the model shows. That is what is interesting here.

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Again, 24 hrs ago we were noting the 240 or 216 hr euro. See the problem?

 

 

No I don't.  I have always focused on the time frame around next Monday night into Tuesday.  I am not hugging models, I am hugging an idea.  The idea is that some time around the beginning of next week a storm will likely be near Cape Hatteras.  The only question in my mind is how far north this storm comes and the exact timing.  The models will always waffle a little on timing and which shortwave will produce the storm, it is the main idea that is important. 

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A ton?

 

Favorable blocking and an active Pacific being mentioned don't necessarily equal "a ton" of reasoning.  It also does not deserving saying "it's only a matter of time" when many, many other "favorable" patterns have yielded nothing.

 

No one here is guaranteeing snow. The good posters are talking about the pattern we have. What we do know is the block is much more favorable than early march, the pacific is improved, the MJO is looping into phase 8, the AO is almost off the charts. This is the type of pattern where it gets hard not to get some sort of snow event.

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AO

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/daily_ao_index/ao.sprd2.gif

 

Rising

 

NAO

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/nao.sprd2.gif

 

Staying negative

 

 

PNA

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/pna.sprd2.gif

 

Rising but staying near neutral to slightly negative. We need the PNA to become positive.

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A ton?

 

Favorable blocking and an active Pacific being mentioned don't necessarily equal "a ton" of reasoning.  It also does not deserving saying "it's only a matter of time" when many, many other "favorable" patterns have yielded nothing.

 

Granted, climo isn't much to work with either but c'mon...

 

I'm not saying it will or will not snow next week (way too early to commit either way) but most reasonable people are not going to fan the flames of weenie hype based on long range modeling.

 

 

 

John has made a ton of good, sound meteorological posts over the past several days illustrating this time period. Out of all the posts in this thread, you chose to call his out? And the phrase "it's only a matter of time" is more so an expression; it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going  to get bombed with snow.

 

And there is a difference between simply a favorable pattern, and one that has blocking of 5 standard deviations above normal. This isn't weenie hype, and it's not just based on an individual long range model showing a threat. 

 

Just dismissing something with an obnoxious tone with no meteorological reasoning has no tolerance. Just as saying "I have a good feeling about this and Upton is stupid and conservative" with no meteorological reasoning also has no tolerance. I've deleted posts of both tones today. 

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By the way, before any panties are bundled up, I'm not calling for any Dec '10 redux. The pattern at H5 going forward is historic for late March and that's the cold hard truth. Whether or not it produces a major event at the surface is yet to be determined.

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