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FORECAST DISCUSSION: "The Storm They Couldn't Punt" 2/7-2/9


HM

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There a chance for dynamic cooling that the models aren't showing?

:graspingatstraws:

 

Good question.  Tom, anyone....should we really be looking at temp profiles at this point when a ccb like the GFS is showing this time of year usually means heavy snow?  seem like the transfer happens early enough for us, but 850s look warm.

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Good question.  Tom, anyone....should we really be looking at temp profiles at this point when a ccb like the GFS is showing this time of year usually means heavy snow?  seem like the transfer happens early enough for us, but 850s look warm.

 

The sooner that ccb gets going the faster we would switch. What you saw on the euro the storm was later in the phase and a little further east which  caused us to miss that and we stayed warm. You need the dynamics for the storm to cool the column. If you don't get the dynamics you will waste precip and will have to rely on the backend of the storm

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In the NYC forum they are saying that under the CCB band, it may be snowing sooner than the GFS shows. What are your thoughts, Tom?

they get on the ccb, we don't, If we did then, yes that is very possible. Remember though, that primary holds on for long so its going to warm up. Need a faster phase, to drag the cold air down.

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I mean, it's not like the model temp profiles aren't responding to the massive frontogenesis

I know you aren't a huge analog past storm guy. But this storm comes to mind for me. Philly started as rain as was predicted to be mainly rain with possibly a switch over at the end. We got into the ccb and the dynamics took over and pasted the region with heavy wet slop (your favorite)... Not saying that happens, but when that frontogenesis and what not goes to town places that get into that ccb are gonna rip...

 

end result

 

020501snowmap.jpg

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I know you aren't a huge analog past storm guy. But this storm comes to mind for me. Philly started as rain as was predicted to be mainly rain with possibly a switch over at the end. We got into the ccb and the dynamics took over and pasted the region with heavy wet slop (your favorite)... Not saying that happens, but when that frontogenesis and what not goes to town places that get into that ccb are gonna rip...

 

end result

 

Any chance back my way, or is this strictly Delaware River east and north of there deal?

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I know you aren't a huge analog past storm guy. But this storm comes to mind for me. Philly started as rain as was predicted to be mainly rain with possibly a switch over at the end. We got into the ccb and the dynamics took over and pasted the region with heavy wet slop (your favorite)... Not saying that happens, but when that frontogenesis and what not goes to town places that get into that ccb are gonna rip...

 

end result

 

020501snowmap.jpg

Loving that 9-12" dot right over our hood Tombo haha. Can easily see this being where the city gets a couple inches and just NW gets slammed while cold air holds on. 

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Loving that 9-12" dot right over our hood Tombo haha. Can easily see this being where the city gets a couple inches and just NW gets slammed while cold air holds on. 

well everyone will flip to rain from abe south, maybe even them. The question is how fast to do we flip back. That's where you would do good with the elevation.

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Those worrying about the thermal profiles, the GFS "catches" the transition at 850 pretty accurately in the heavier CCB at hour 54.  May not have it perfect but it could be a heavy snow, rain, snow type of drive from east to west across NJ as the heaviest band changes over while colder air pushes in from the west, leaving a screw zone in between. 

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I know you aren't a huge analog past storm guy. But this storm comes to mind for me. Philly started as rain as was predicted to be mainly rain with possibly a switch over at the end. We got into the ccb and the dynamics took over and pasted the region with heavy wet slop (your favorite)... Not saying that happens, but when that frontogenesis and what not goes to town places that get into that ccb are gonna rip...

 

end result

 

020501snowmap.jpg

 

How bout MAR 31 / APR 1 1997 - Rain changed to hvy snow around mid-day, ended up with 10-12" locally, don't recall any snow in the forecast that day - Boston ended up getting annihilated, think the key there was a stall south of L.I. - we cashed in big time on wrap around

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How bout MAR 31 / APR 1 1997 - Rain changed to hvy snow around mid-day, ended up with 10-12" locally, don't recall any snow in the forecast that day - Boston ended up getting annihilated, think the key there was a stall south of L.I. - we cashed in big time on wrap around

Yeah that storm came to mind.  I don't have a PHI-area wide map but an NJ map is on my site...

http://www.raymondcmartinjr.com/weather/1997/31-Mar-97.html

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I hear you Tom, I'm just saying the model is handling it accurately. Models in 2013 >> models in 2001. Those type of errors just don't happen anymore since the 2010 radiation upgrade. Now, the only things you really have to worry about are too much/not enough convective feedback affecting the deformation band

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OOoo i agree, i wasn't debating that. I was just saying whoever gets under that ccb, it will get wild and the snow will pile up fast.

Definitely agree. I just don't think that the timing is "wrong" on the gfs. When the def band sets up, the thermal profile will respond appropriately

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I find it interesting the RPM model snow totals the media is showing. Lots could go wrong that! Anyhow, the 18z GFS is rather impressive with the deformation band/wrap around precipitation for our area. The lift ramps up fairly quickly and becomes increasingly deeper in the snow growth zone as the colder air moves in, especially in portions of eastern PA and northern NJ as it pivots eastward. If this were to verify, 2 inches per hour snowfall rates I think would be doable during the height of the storm.

 

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