#NoPoles Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'm not even sure anyone will entertain this, and if it gets deleted, I'm fine with that...but I have a request of a personal nature. I have USMC (veteran Sergeant) friend whom I have a lot of respect for. We served together in Okinawa, and he's not just some oo-rah motivator meathead/jarhead. After finishing a few enlistments, he and his family moved to the Glens Falls, NY area to take over the family farm that has been around for over 6 generations...it's getting to the point, now, where climate change will probably put his farm out of business. He became very distraught over watching his family farm go under and started doing his own research into why the climate/weather was changing at an alarming rate. Unfortunately, he has seemed to have fallen in with the crowd who believes our government is secretly geo-engineering our weather/climate. We have kept in touch over FB, and since he knows how much I love the weather, he is always posting links to "research that supports the govt climate conspiracy", and scientific studies about "gov climate engineering" every time I post about the weather... i have visited some of those links to try to understand where he is coming from...my thoughts are that his failing farm is a constant emotional drain and since it is obvious that our climate is changing, he really wants/needs to know why... i've also noticed that purely scientific and unbiased science/experiments are written/published in a way that it is difficult for the common person to read and comprehend...while the climate conspiracy theorists websites/research are written so that any jo-schmo can understand the language... i would like to know if any of you would like to volunteer to correspond with my friend and try to help him understand the scientific reasons behind why our climate is changing at an abnormally and an alarmingly fast rate... i know this request seems silly, and i really don't know if my friend still has an open mind, or if he has taken the conspiracy theory hook, line, and sinker all the way to the bank...but my friend is intelligent and i have a lot of respect for him so i figured i'd throw this out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isohume Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Have him review these public friendly informational videos from the National Science Foundation. Some of the best scientific minds in the nation associated with climate change are featured. If he already has a conspiracy bias, you probably wont change his views, but this may give him something to think about and bounce his convictions off.http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/degree/how_do_we_know.jsp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#NoPoles Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Have him review these public friendly informational videos from the National Science Foundation. Some of the best scientific minds in the nation associated with climate change are featured. If he already has a conspiracy bias, you probably wont change his views, but this may give him something to think about and bounce his convictions off. http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/degree/how_do_we_know.jsp thanks, i shared that link with him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 A good starting point would be what exactly in the weather is causing the farm to struggle that he believes is a conspiracy? Drought? Flood? There are many good scientific papers out there that explain drought and flood patterns. We've been relatively lucky with droughts since the 1950s, but history shows we will begin enduring them again and this past summer or two may have been the start of that. The southwest US has been in a general longer term drought since the early 2000s. There have to date been no abnormal drought or flood patterns in the United States due to climate change, but it is believed that some of these patterns are already being altered in other parts of the globe and that going forward, drought and flood patterns could become more intense due to climate change. The regional orientation of this is unknown however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#NoPoles Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Have him review these public friendly informational videos from the National Science Foundation. Some of the best scientific minds in the nation associated with climate change are featured. If he already has a conspiracy bias, you probably wont change his views, but this may give him something to think about and bounce his convictions off. http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/degree/how_do_we_know.jsp well guess i got my answer to how intensely he believes in conspiracy theories...i posted your link on his FB wall and this is the comment he responded with: funny NSF grants pay for alot of the "scientific expirements". They also committed treason with the 9/11 report...not a very crediable sourse in my opinion....but read it I will. sadly, i guess he is well beyond the point of reason, and appears to subscribe to every conspiracy theory out there...what a bummer, such a cool guy when i knew him...wonder what made him "snap"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isohume Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Yeah, he's deep. I'd just let him be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 What exactly is he farming? I haven't heard of any widespread crop failure in the lower 48 because of weather outside of the western drought. Michigan is upstream of New York and crops have been the same today as they were the day I was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I would be more concerned with fungus and mold infestations than weather issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binovc Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Michigan lost all the apple and cherry crop and some others this past year due to the early warm up and freeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#NoPoles Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 i appreciate the responses... i engaged my friend in conversation so i could try to understand where he was coming from and this is what i got... he is familiar with the pan evaporation rate and understands that since records have been kept, it has decreased by 20%, or as he phrased it, the amount of sunlight reaching the earth has decreased by 20%...he believes this decrease is caused by contrails and that the govt is secretly aerosol spraying aluminum into the atmosphere via jet engines... he has a small farm with livestock...he has ag fields which he uses to grow food for his livestock...he says this reduction in sunlight correlates to his ag fields not being able to produce enough food to sustain his livestock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsutherland1 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 well guess i got my answer to how intensely he believes in conspiracy theories...i posted your link on his FB wall and this is the comment he responded with: funny NSF grants pay for alot of the "scientific expirements". They also committed treason with the 9/11 report...not a very crediable sourse in my opinion....but read it I will. sadly, i guess he is well beyond the point of reason, and appears to subscribe to every conspiracy theory out there...what a bummer, such a cool guy when i knew him...wonder what made him "snap"? I was going to suggest that one needs to further examine why the family farm might be failing. It might be on account of the economic reality that larger commercial enterprises can leverage economies of scale that put smaller farms at a disadvantage, have better ability to leverage agriculture support programs, etc. It might have to do with recent weather. It might have to do with other factors. Probably, there's a combination of factors involved. Sadly, his reply to you indicates that he appears to be caught in the kind of monological perspective that makes it difficult for him to trust objective information that runs counter to his hypotheses. Hence, he believes such information is manipulated or originates with those who don't have the nation's interests and its citizens at heart or even have played a role in bringing about the circumstances he faces. I suspect that an accumulation of stresses has led him to adopt the seemingly "simple" explanation that others [government] are behind the events that undermined the success of his family farm. That stress probably goes back much earlier in time than just the recent difficulties of his family's farm. One possibility is that the military provided a lot of structure and support. Leaving the military put him in a situation with less structure coupled with the need to build a new network of support. That post-military situation might have exacerbated his level of stress, which escalated as his family's farm began to experience difficulties. Occasionally, in such circumstances, some people find it less painful to try to evade objective realities, even as those realities or aspects of them are beyond one's control. Indeed, acknowledging that there are circumstances beyond one's control might lead some to perceive that they are somehow weak or incapable. That's far from true, but some view things in such a fashion. Hence, they construct a narrative that things are beyond one's control only because powerful actors [usually those in authority or the government] have made them so. This does not make him a less good person nor one less deserving of empathy. Indeed, he probably needs empathy more on account of his situation. One can empathize with his difficulties--indeed maintaining a friendship in spite of his embrace of conspiracy theories might take away some of the pain/stress he must be feeling--without endorsing his conspiracy theories. Friends can hold honest differences of opinion, but one needs to be sensitive of how one manages the differences in opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Michigan lost all the apple and cherry crop and some others this past year due to the early warm up and freeze. Yup, was the biggest loss in years... I doubt a +14 degree March will become common in either of our lifetimes... More common would be sporatic +5 to +10's... But even a +10 wouldn't get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#NoPoles Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 I really am not so sure that it isn't something else entirely. I don't believe any of the global warming alarmism. I believe any warming (this is from a nasa newsletter I found on NOAA's website) since 1971 can be attributed to contrails. that is when they started adding sulfur to the fuel. It also made a contrail form at -40 instead of -70. Now according to Dr. David Kieth speaking before the Royal Society stated they now use aluminum oxide because it is 4x more reflective and lighter so it floats longer. I don't think Dr Kieth would lie to the Royal Society whom paid for some of his research. The CFR also has been involved the topic was a project covered on thier site but it is no longer there. I have read about this in many levels of our govt. Congress, GAO, Dept Of Commerce, DHS (hurricane aerosol microphysics program)..and others This is no conspiracy. Normal aircraft fly on IFR routes. These guys fly all over often making grids ect. the above are his exact thoughts via copy/paste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FL510 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 At times I work with ex-Marines and I have found (as a generalization) they tend to believe in extreme ideologies and they have a difficult time understanding viewpoints that contradict their previously determined world view. They also tend to be overcome with emotion about said beliefs, to the point where they sometimes can not do their duties with efficiency. They also seem to be oblivious to their own emotional needs and behavior stemming from their subconscious. I can honestly say as a group they have massive denial and suppression issues. I don't know what it is about their armed service experience, but they are polar opposites vs. Air National Guard or Air Force pilots; these types seem to in general be well rounded, competent and professional. I think getting into political discussions with Marines is a waste of time. I'm sure there are outstanding Marines out there, but I have yet to meet them in my professional life...intelligence is not a guarantee of rational thought, as Nate Silver would be happy to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmartin49 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Probably ought to lock this one up before it goes nuclear..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skierinvermont Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 At times I work with ex-Marines and I have found (as a generalization) they tend to believe in extreme ideologies and they have a difficult time understanding viewpoints that contradict their previously determined world view. They also tend to be overcome with emotion about said beliefs, to the point where they sometimes can not do their duties with efficiency. They also seem to be oblivious to their own emotional needs and behavior stemming from their subconscious. I can honestly say as a group they have massive denial and suppression issues. I don't know what it is about their armed service experience, but they are polar opposites vs. Air National Guard or Air Force pilots; these types seem to in general be well rounded, competent and professional. I think getting into political discussions with Marines is a waste of time. I'm sure there are outstanding Marines out there, but I have yet to meet them in my professional life...intelligence is not a guarantee of rational thought, as Nate Silver would be happy to explain. My roommate is an ex-marine. 3 tours Iraq and Afghanistan as a Sergeant. He fits your description perfectly. He is perfectly intelligent, but readily adopts extremist views, has a hard time seeing viewpoints that contradict his world-view, very emotional. I think a lot of the stuff comes from marine contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Global_Warmer Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Extremely Ironic. I know 3 Ex-Marines and 1 Active. the One active Marine is a pretty normal dude. the three Ex-Marines are very intelligent but extreme. Like conservative extreme but different, like they have some sort of sense of self viewpoint that is completely separate from reality that rests on them being "superior" in regards to this knowledge than others. they eat up whatever fits it. Two of them obsessively post stuff on Facebook that makes their family and friends think they are insane, like literally insane. Scary to the point that these guys don't date, because most woman sense danger quickly. But as far as I know I haven't seen the violence with women or anything but they give off this it's there way or the I would kill you over it if it came to it in some extreme circumstance vibe. Yet both have job, but one has big time issues at his workplace(my former workplace) but he would have issues with our bosses that did not exist. I assumed it was PTSD. But maybe it's more to do with their training that they are better and more superior that everyone else, makes sense to help a Man survive in combat but not civilian life. I hate to generalize and I apologize for it, but it's something that has always stood out to me vs folks I've known in other armed services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonger Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Well by occupation they are "Shock Troops"... They are the lead ground attack and heavy hitting soldiers, I'm not surprised that this carries over to personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 From wikipedia about Contrails and Climate: "overall the magnitude of the forcing is not well known" I'd guess lack of reliable information makes this particular subject ripe for poor theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeffsvilleWx Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Extremely Ironic. I know 3 Ex-Marines and 1 Active. the One active Marine is a pretty normal dude. the three Ex-Marines are very intelligent but extreme. Like conservative extreme but different, like they have some sort of sense of self viewpoint that is completely separate from reality that rests on them being "superior" in regards to this knowledge than others. they eat up whatever fits it. Two of them obsessively post stuff on Facebook that makes their family and friends think they are insane, like literally insane. Scary to the point that these guys don't date, because most woman sense danger quickly. But as far as I know I haven't seen the violence with women or anything but they give off this it's there way or the I would kill you over it if it came to it in some extreme circumstance vibe. Yet both have job, but one has big time issues at his workplace(my former workplace) but he would have issues with our bosses that did not exist. I assumed it was PTSD. But maybe it's more to do with their training that they are better and more superior that everyone else, makes sense to help a Man survive in combat but not civilian life. I hate to generalize and I apologize for it, but it's something that has always stood out to me vs folks I've known in other armed services. The marines do an excellent job of preparing a man for combat. They do a terrible job of helping him transition to civilian life. Mental health treatment is almost nonexistent, which is unfortunate because so many young combat vets have experienced things that no one should ever have to experience, and the marines do not equip him to deal with that for the rest of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm not even sure anyone will entertain this, and if it gets deleted, I'm fine with that...but I have a request of a personal nature. I have USMC (veteran Sergeant) friend whom I have a lot of respect for. We served together in Okinawa, and he's not just some oo-rah motivator meathead/jarhead. After finishing a few enlistments, he and his family moved to the Glens Falls, NY area to take over the family farm that has been around for over 6 generations...it's getting to the point, now, where climate change will probably put his farm out of business. He became very distraught over watching his family farm go under and started doing his own research into why the climate/weather was changing at an alarming rate. Unfortunately, he has seemed to have fallen in with the crowd who believes our government is secretly geo-engineering our weather/climate. We have kept in touch over FB, and since he knows how much I love the weather, he is always posting links to "research that supports the govt climate conspiracy", and scientific studies about "gov climate engineering" every time I post about the weather... i have visited some of those links to try to understand where he is coming from...my thoughts are that his failing farm is a constant emotional drain and since it is obvious that our climate is changing, he really wants/needs to know why... i've also noticed that purely scientific and unbiased science/experiments are written/published in a way that it is difficult for the common person to read and comprehend...while the climate conspiracy theorists websites/research are written so that any jo-schmo can understand the language... i would like to know if any of you would like to volunteer to correspond with my friend and try to help him understand the scientific reasons behind why our climate is changing at an abnormally and an alarmingly fast rate... i know this request seems silly, and i really don't know if my friend still has an open mind, or if he has taken the conspiracy theory hook, line, and sinker all the way to the bank...but my friend is intelligent and i have a lot of respect for him so i figured i'd throw this out there... what kind of unusual weather has Glen falls NY seen recently to make crops fail?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FL510 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 The marines do an excellent job of preparing a man for combat. They do a terrible job of helping him transition to civilian life. Mental health treatment is almost nonexistent, which is unfortunate because so many young combat vets have experienced things that no one should ever have to experience, and the marines do not equip him to deal with that for the rest of his life. Interesting perspective. A honest question, why are so many Marines unapologetic and proud of the USMC if it doesn't help them transition to civilian life and takes advantage of them after their service is over? Semper Fi, Once a Marine Always a Marine, etc. come to mind. If behaving like a Marine doesn't work in civilian life, in civilian relationships, than why continue to behave that way? Getting back to other branches of military service, I've heard a lot of cynicism from ex-members of the Air Force, ANG, Army, etc., but I rarely (if ever?) heard a Marine criticize his military department. I don't think most humans can deal with the stresses and transitions of military --> civilian life on their own. I'm by no means a expert on neurobiology, but if I understand correctly once the brain creates defense mechanisms like PTSD (or similar) to deal with trauma, it is extremely difficult to recover and re-network functional neural pathways. People get "stuck" constantly reliving and attempting to deal with a specific time in their life that was too traumatic to deal with and there was never adequate closure (dysfunctionally I might ad). Perhaps I just answered my own question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeffsvilleWx Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Interesting perspective. A honest question, why are so many Marines unapologetic and proud of the USMC if it doesn't help them transition to civilian life and takes advantage of them after their service is over? Semper Fi, Once a Marine Always a Marine, etc. come to mind. If behaving like a Marine doesn't work in civilian life, in civilian relationships, than why continue to behave that way? Getting back to other branches of military service, I've heard a lot of cynicism from ex-members of the Air Force, ANG, Army, etc., but I rarely (if ever?) heard a Marine criticize his military department. I don't think most humans can deal with the stresses and transitions of military --> civilian life on their own. I'm by no means a expert on neurobiology, but if I understand correctly once the brain creates defense mechanisms like PTSD (or similar) to deal with trauma, it is extremely difficult to recover and re-network functional neural pathways. People get "stuck" constantly reliving and attempting to deal with a specific time in their life that was too traumatic to deal with and there was never adequate closure (dysfunctionally I might ad). Perhaps I just answered my own question... A lot of it comes from indoctrination as part of their entrance training. In basic training (army), indoctrination included a call and response where the drill sergeant would ask "what makes the green grass grow?" and we would reply "the blood, the blood, the red, red blood drill sergeant!" also "what is the spirit of the bayonet?" "To kill, kill, kill without mercy!" Hell, I didn't even serve in a combat MOS. The whole point of basic training (and boot camp) is to break people down and mold them into soldiers (sailers, airmen, marines, etc). This is taken to the extreme in the marines, and the pride is just part of it. Pride wasn't part of being a soldier. Let me rephrase, being a soldier (as opposed to a marine, or an airmen) wasn't a reason to be proud. Serving your country was. The continuation of "behaving like a marine" probably exists because that's all that individual knows. Think about it: he most likely left his parents house straight for the marines, who molded them into who they needed. That individual has no adult life experience other than what he was taught in the marines, and what he has experienced afterwards. A good friend of mine from high school ended up joining the marines and did 4 tours in Iraq/Afghanistan. Last I knew, he was an alcoholic and a heroin addict. I met with him a few times after his deployments, and it was painfully obvious that he needed mental counseling. He even acknowledged it. But he had reached his mental counseling limit and the marines wouldn't treat him anymore. It's sick, really. Soldiers/marines/airmen/seamen are merely disposable numbers, tools with which the government does it's dirty work. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabize Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I'm not even sure anyone will entertain this, and if it gets deleted, I'm fine with that...but I have a request of a personal nature. I have USMC (veteran Sergeant) friend whom I have a lot of respect for. We served together in Okinawa, and he's not just some oo-rah motivator meathead/jarhead. After finishing a few enlistments, he and his family moved to the Glens Falls, NY area to take over the family farm that has been around for over 6 generations...it's getting to the point, now, where climate change will probably put his farm out of business. He became very distraught over watching his family farm go under and started doing his own research into why the climate/weather was changing at an alarming rate. Unfortunately, he has seemed to have fallen in with the crowd who believes our government is secretly geo-engineering our weather/climate. We have kept in touch over FB, and since he knows how much I love the weather, he is always posting links to "research that supports the govt climate conspiracy", and scientific studies about "gov climate engineering" every time I post about the weather... i have visited some of those links to try to understand where he is coming from...my thoughts are that his failing farm is a constant emotional drain and since it is obvious that our climate is changing, he really wants/needs to know why... i've also noticed that purely scientific and unbiased science/experiments are written/published in a way that it is difficult for the common person to read and comprehend...while the climate conspiracy theorists websites/research are written so that any jo-schmo can understand the language... i would like to know if any of you would like to volunteer to correspond with my friend and try to help him understand the scientific reasons behind why our climate is changing at an abnormally and an alarmingly fast rate... i know this request seems silly, and i really don't know if my friend still has an open mind, or if he has taken the conspiracy theory hook, line, and sinker all the way to the bank...but my friend is intelligent and i have a lot of respect for him so i figured i'd throw this out there... I've been working climate change into my biology course for non-science majors. I'm not sure if I'm good at it yet, but I do feel the need to try and get out the word. I think the most important thing is to get people to see that the big issue is actually very simple: we are taking in more energy from the Sun than we radiate back out to space. This is largely due to increased CO2, which has been increasing relentlessly in the atmosphere ever since we have been burning coal and oil on a large scale since 1850 or so. This is abundantly clear to scientists. Doubting it is like doubting gravity. Everything else is pretty unimportant............ and it is the unimportant stuff (all the cycles and the details of where the extra heat goes once it gets here) that the scientists are "unsure" about. This is what all the "skeptic" sites and the lukewarmers talk about, and its really a waste of time to get into endless discussions about it. Your friend might be receptive to this viewpoint, especially if he has already seen climate change in action with his own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.