NorEaster27 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 They aren't required to measure at any other interval, but the specification states in the very first line "the greatest accumulation on the board since the previous observation". I feel you are having trouble with "greatest accumulation". Yes, that means that if it snows 1.5" but a half inch melts before ob time, they are supposed to report the 1.5" (and by extension, they should've measured that). The 6-hour rule is for reporting and for clearing the board. Nothing more. except they wouldnt have know of the half inch that melted if they are only measuring snow on the board every 6 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 except they wouldnt have know of the half inch that melted if they are only measuring snow on the board every 6 hours. Yes, and therein lies the problem. Maybe things would improve if, as soon as the ASOS reported a phase change, Upton called the observer for a measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorEaster27 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes, and therein lies the problem. Maybe things would improve if, as soon as the ASOS reported a phase change, Upton called the observer for a measurement. An automated ASOS that uses the laser level for snow depth would be great. The zookeeper just has no incentive to measure more than he has to. At least at the airports they are FAA contract observers and their measurements have a direct effect on air traffic and ground operations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 An automated ASOS that uses the laser level for snow depth would be great. The zookeeper just has no incentive to measure more than he has to. At least at the airports they are FAA contract observers and their measurements have a direct effect on air traffic and ground operations Well yes, ideally snow measurements would be automated. The DEOS network has snowfall measurement sensors which Mt. Holly uses; I think they might even be using them for one of their airports since I was told a snow observer recently passed away suddenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 they should have a 24/7 video of the obs location...If there's a questionable measurement they can go to the video tape... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 when I was a kid all that mattered was how much was on the ground when the snow stopped...It's looks like they measured that way in the past...during snow events you need to be alert for change overs or mixing...When I was measuring snow way way back I cleared the snow board as soon as I heard the pings on the skylight...the February 1995 storm changed to rain in a matter of minutes... I have seen old observational forms which suggest they still measured the same way the guidelines specify today. I've also seen anecdotal evidence suggesting what you say above is correct. Quite possibly, its a mix; some places measured the "right" way and some measured "that" way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowGoose69 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 An automated ASOS that uses the laser level for snow depth would be great. The zookeeper just has no incentive to measure more than he has to. At least at the airports they are FAA contract observers and their measurements have a direct effect on air traffic and ground operations I'm wondering if they can just get rid of Central Park as a snow measuring station, in reality you can use EWR/LGA/JFK just fine, there have been numerous stations across the country dropped over the past 15-20 years. Off memory in this region alone I think official snow measurements used to be taken at BDR/AVP and no longer are, BDR still has snow measurements but I don't think they are taken at Sikorsky any longer. I know someone who used to be an observer at White Plains in the late 80s and 90s, he said the observers were so lazy when taking snow measurements and did not want to go out in the cold so they'd just estimate the depth by looking at footprints in the snow...makes you wonder if thats why HPN is no longer a snow reporting station. I know that the observations are horrendous all around these days, the FRG observer today reported SN several times with the temp sensor generating a temp of 48 or 50. I've also seen JFK/LGA reporting decks at 150, 250 and the EWR and ISP observers decide they are not gonna augment it and it reports CLR. another one that drives me up a wall is when they allow a M1/4SM ob with +SN or FG to go out, its not that hard to go in and put 1/8, 1/16 or 0SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I'm wondering if they can just get rid of Central Park as a snow measuring station, in reality you can use EWR/LGA/JFK just fine, there have been numerous stations across the country dropped over the past 15-20 years. Off memory in this region alone I think official snow measurements used to be taken at BDR/AVP and no longer are, BDR still has snow measurements but I don't think they are taken at Sikorsky any longer. Well of course you *could* but I don't know if that would be desirable. Certainly the long period of record at the Park would be a strong argument against it. Because of ASOS and consequential loss of staff at airports, a lot (probably a solid majority) of places where snowfall is still reported are no longer actually measured at the airport itself. Snow at all 4 of Mt. Holly's sites are being measured off-site. Same thing with our 3 sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchel Volk Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 CPK seems to miss report snowfall report often, I was surprise that they got Friday's measurement right, then they turn around and blow it today. They need to keep CPK obs official but somehow get someone who would do a correct measurement. I would suggest that they hire a meteorologist who works in NYC and does the measurement. Meteorologists need jobs and one station in NYC would be helpful to the city during a meteorological crises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 CPK seems to miss report snowfall report often, I was surprise that they got Friday's measurement right, then they turn around and blow it today. They need to keep CPK obs official but somehow get someone who would do a correct measurement. I would suggest that they hire a meteorologist who works in NYC and does the measurement. Meteorologists need jobs and one station in NYC would be helpful to the city during a meteorological crises. That has happened in the past elsewhere, after a fashion; At AVP a local TV station is doing the measurements. A single person who also works a possibly hectic job with a varied schedule is not ideal since the same thing that may have happened today with the zoo staff can still happen. You need someone who has the time to be there and do it right. Like I mentioned, things might improve a lot if a simple phone call was placed at the right time; I think there is always someone there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I know someone who used to be an observer at White Plains in the late 80s and 90s, he said the observers were so lazy when taking snow measurements and did not want to go out in the cold so they'd just estimate the depth by looking at footprints in the snow...makes you wonder if thats why HPN is no longer a snow reporting station. HPN was an airport coop station; essentially not much different than your average coop station except of course they take hourly obs for aviation operations. It was never considered a "first-order" or "local climatological data" site. Current NWS operations fund snowfall observing only at first-order/local climatological data sites. For OKX they include NYC, LGA, JFK, EWR, ISP, BDR. For PHI that includes PHL, ABE, ILG, ACY. For BOX its BOS, BDL, ORH, PVD. Etc. I know that the observations are horrendous all around these days, the FRG observer today reported SN several times with the temp sensor generating a temp of 48 or 50. I've also seen JFK/LGA reporting decks at 150, 250 and the EWR and ISP observers decide they are not gonna augment it and it reports CLR. another one that drives me up a wall is when they allow a M1/4SM ob with +SN or FG to go out, its not that hard to go in and put 1/8, 1/16 or 0SM. Well, that's what happens when you get a machine that does most of the work; some people will let it do *all* the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isotherm Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 You don't need a formal document of guidelines to know that snowfall should be measured before it melts. Simple logic. If we're going to be accurate about keeping a climate record of total snowfall year to year, it would make sense to ensure that every 0.1" gets counted. Weather doesn't operate on man-made, stupid time scales like 6 hour intervals. We've got to get a true weather weenie in Central Park looking out the window, eyes fixed on the sky 24/7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaner587 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Just to let you guys know, manhattan at least from midtown higher had a slushy accumulation especially in the park probably around 0.2-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Yes, but the part he quoted was essentially correct. Particularly for east-coast locations like the park. Repeated snow showers that accumulate and then melt are extremely rare there. What Nor'easter posted was relevant to today's situation, even if he didn't interpret it correctly. Rare, but not unheard of. March 18, 1973 was one such day, although even the old 30 Rock crew seem to have missed that accumulation, which isn't surprising since they were probably watching the snow melt on the pavement at the office. I have an old photo of a snow covered Central Park on that day (newspaper clipping) and I recall that we had snow accumulate and then melt 4 or 5 times during the day at my parent's house on LI. I still remember seeing heavy snow fall down the street before it reached my house a few seconds later and distinctly remember witnessing that twice (maybe more) that day. It was as if they were tropical downpours falling as snow: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KNYC/1973/3/18/DailyHistory.html Edit: Check out LGA from that day : http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/Klga/1973/3/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA ISP shows it too...for fun graph the visibilities: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/Kisp/1973/3/18/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I have seen old observational forms which suggest they still measured the same way the guidelines specify today. I've also seen anecdotal evidence suggesting what you say above is correct. Quite possibly, its a mix; some places measured the "right" way and some measured "that" way. The 17.7" snow depth in Central Park from the Blizzard of 1978 was measured 6 hours before the snow stopped falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsutherland1 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 ...ideally you should measure when the snow ends, at least. As far as what's been going on in Central Park... sometimes I do wonder if it would be better to get someone who would really be interested in doing it, as opposed to the zoo staff. I agree and it's my concern that Central Park is failing to measure the snow when it ends. As a result, the low snowfall amounts are being missed, as the snow has either melted or been washed away. By the time a measurement is attempted, there's nothing left, hence the Park reports a trace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 last night Central Park ended up with 0.1" from 0.02" of melted water...Probably under measured like most of the snowfalls this winter...Here is a list of measurable snow days in NYC for JFK, Newark, LGA, Central Park... location....11/7...11/27...12/24....12/26....12/29....1/16....1/22.....1/25....1/28.....2/2...total..... 0.1"+ Newark......6.2".....0.4".......T.........0.4"......1.5".....0.3".....0.1"......0.7".....0.3".....0.3"...10.2".....10 LGA...........1.1"......T.........0.3"......0.3"......0.3".....0.1".......T........0.7".....0.2".....0.4".....3.4".......8 JFK............4.3"......T..........T..........T........0.4".....0.1".......T........0.8".....0.1".....0.3".....6.0".......7 CP.............4.7"......T.........0.4".......T.........T..........T.........T........1.5".......T.......0.1".....6.7".......4 as you can see Central Park was short changed with the small events...LGA was short changed in November...Newark has ten measurable snowfalls...LGA has 8... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewave Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 last night Central Park ended up with 0.1" from 0.02" of melted water...Probably under measured like most of the snowfalls this winter...Here is a list of measurable snow days in NYC for JFK, Newark, LGA, Central Park... location....11/7...11/27...12/24....12/26....12/29....1/16....1/22.....1/25....1/28.....2/2...total..... 0.1"+ Newark......6.2".....0.4".......T.........0.4"......1.5".....0.3".....0.1"......0.7".....0.3".....0.3"...10.2".....10 LGA...........1.1"......T.........0.3"......0.3"......0.3".....0.1".......T........0.7".....0.2".....0.4".....3.4".......8 JFK............4.3"......T..........T..........T........0.4".....0.1".......T........0.8".....0.1".....0.3".....6.0".......7 CP.............4.7"......T.........0.4".......T.........T..........T.........T........1.5".......T.......0.1".....6.7".......4 as you can see Central Park was short changed with the small events...LGA was short changed in November...Newark has ten measurable snowfalls...LGA has 8... It looks like NYC probably picked up around an inch or so more accumulation on the season than was recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle W Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 It looks like NYC probably picked up around an inch or so more accumulation on the season than was recorded. the 1.5" on 1/25 for Central Park is double the other obs sights...Newark recorded only a trace on 12/24 otherwise it would have eleven days 0.1" or more...it's worse than being nickled and dimed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewave Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 the 1.5" on 1/25 for Central Park is double the other obs sights...Newark recorded only a trace on 12/24 otherwise it would have eleven days 0.1" or more...it's worse than being nickled and dimed... There was a story in the Times back in 2003. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/11/science/flawed-snowfall-data-jeopardize-climate-change-research.html?src=pm UCAR had a more recent article. http://www2.ucar.edu/atmosnews/features/4477/how-deep-snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBG Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I was,until the (forecast) storm of February 8-9 going to call this another "winter of the dustings" similar to 1954-5 (or was it 1953-4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowGoose69 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 They did it again today, T at 1pm meanwhile "Riverbend Houses" in NYCreported 1.4....that is high, may be up in Harlem area but no doubt Central Park had 0.3-0.4 before the switchover to slop late AM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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