The Interior/NW Suburbs Winter Thread

[nzucker]

I have the snow weenie luck to be living at the top of the ridge line over 1400 feet. Not sure how much the higher elvation holds true for a big uptick in snow. Need cold air first & a storm. I just can't picture my elevation holding the same stick living up in VT at 3000 ft etc. Ths is my first winter in Highland Lakes. Although numerous people tell me HighLakes in ground zero for storms typically compared to the Vernon, Franklin, Sussex Valley areas.

According to the friendly person down the street.

Avg snow fall on the block - 60 inches

bad year - 40 or less

epic season - 100 or more

I have noticed on my travels that the decent snow line on rt 23 tends to start around Newfoundland coming from Butler Rt 287.

 

 

I have the snow weenie luck to be living at the top of the ridge line over 1400 feet. Not sure how much the higher elvation holds true for a big uptick in snow. Need cold air first & a storm. I just can't picture my elevation holding the same stick living up in VT at 3000 ft etc. Ths is my first winter in Highland Lakes. Although numerous people tell me HighLakes in ground zero for storms typically compared to the Vernon, Franklin, Sussex Valley areas.

According to the friendly person down the street.

Avg snow fall on the block - 60 inches

bad year - 40 or less

epic season - 100 or more

I have noticed on my travels that the decent snow line on rt 23 tends to start around Newfoundland coming from Butler Rt 287.

This is a really great location...I love Highland Lakes, beautiful area. I really want to move somewhere higher in northern Westchester as well, but I work a lot of hours in the City so it's not practical. 

 

Obviously you can't compare to VT because you aren't high enough, or on a big enough ridgeline, to upslope a lot. Isolated areas with high elevations rarely do as well as solid ridgelines like the Green Mountains because they don't produce the same large-scale lift in the atmosphere. You also are going to be sleet/freezing rain on a lot of storms that Vermont (even valley areas) get snow from...you're so far south that your 850s can easily be above 0C regardless of the colder surface at that elevation. 

 

I lived in Vermont for 4 years (college at Middlebury), and I averaged close to 70" in the Champlain Valley at 350' elevation. However, the averages rapidly increase as you ascend the Greens on Route 125 coming out of Middlebury...Ripton at 1500' averages almost 120", and Mount Mansfield gets close to 300" at 4000' in the Northern Greens. It's beautiful up there, and I love the snowpack retention, especially in the east-facing hills on the other side of the Greens. The Champlain Valley can torch good but the east side of the Green Mountains never warms up. I spent last winter in the Monadnocks in southern NH and that area has some interesting snowfall patterns as well...

[NorthNJwx]

Not sure if there are any records for highpoint. The only point that I can make is that the eastern end of Sussex County can get more snow than the NW&  W part of the county with the right storm track on a coastal low. This could iply that the ridge line from Sparta through Greenwood Lakes may get the same amount of average snowfall as the ridge line out in the western past of the county,

Someone who has lived in the area much longer can most likely confirm or deny snowfall for both ridges.

Having lived in Edison, NJ the past 3 years, I am hoping that this area does well for thunderstorms too.

Edison did not do well due to the close distance to the ocean/bay for storms in my view.

 

I'm not sure where I saw that 65" number - it may have come from the NJ State Climatologist's site, but I can't verify that and am not sure if the number is still out there. I do remember seeing it in multiple places, though. Regardless, it sounds pretty accurate. Certainly, NE Sussex can do better than High Point (and often does); it all depends on the storm. Bergen even does better than High Point on occasion, and by a large margin on 2/12/06 and 12/27/10. I think High Point probably does have the highest average in the state, but those higher parts of NE Sussex (and perhaps the top Bearfort Mountain in West Milford) could certainly average at or over 60. 

 

 

This justifies my average of 37-38" here in Dobbs Ferry. Oakland and Dobbs Ferry are at exactly the same latitude. You are a bit further from the coast, but I am almost 100' higher, so that averages out...My house specifically is around 340', but the woods behind it in the Jurhing Estate peak at 425' on most contoured maps I've seen. 

 

A lot of people think that Westchester is not snowy because they think of urban areas like Yonkers, or worse Mount Vernon and Mamaroneck right along the LI Sound. The interior wooded areas of the County with elevation are very different. It's even more dramatic when you go up the Saw Mill...the higher hills around Katonah definitely average 40-45" per year. 

 

Sounds reasonable to me. I could certainly see those numbers atop the Palisades across the river in Alpine. There is plenty of winter-to-winter variation between here and your area, but the long-term averages are probably close. 09-10 and 10-11 were probably snowier there, whereas 00-01 and other winters where being west mattered frequently were probably snowier here. 

[nzucker]

I'm not sure where I saw that 65" number - it may have come from the NJ State Climatologist's site, but I can't verify that and am not sure if the number is still out there. I do remember seeing it in multiple places, though. Regardless, it sounds pretty accurate. Certainly, NE Sussex can do better than High Point (and often does); it all depends on the storm. Bergen even does better than High Point on occasion, and by a large margin on 2/12/06 and 12/27/10. I think High Point probably does have the highest average in the state, but those higher parts of NE Sussex (and perhaps the top Bearfort Mountain in West Milford) could certainly average at or over 60. 

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable to me. I could certainly see those numbers atop the Palisades across the river in Alpine. There is plenty of winter-to-winter variation between here and your area, but the long-term averages are probably close. 09-10 and 10-11 were probably snowier there, whereas 00-01 and other winters where being west mattered frequently were probably snowier here. 

 

How much did you get in 09-10 and 10-11? I had 68" and 69.5" those years...

[rgwp96]

Hello RGWPG,

Let me clarify my post. I don't imply Butler is not in the NW burbs snow zone. In fact I agree that Buter typically does very well for storms.

Your points about the area on Rt 23 is built up hold merit. I have yet to venture off of rt 23. I have been at the Lowes numerous times, I see what looks to be the town of Butler down the hill from Lowes. The Lowes parking lot does provide a nice view of the hills out to the north and west too.

But to my point, I was away for Chirstmas and came back that Wednesday. I saw no snow on the ground until I was futher west on Rt 23.

When I got home I was a little surprised that Highland Lakes had the most snow on the trip. I think I may have posted a photo or 2 on this board.

I did not venture of any roads either.

Cheers,

Darkstar

Dark star, yes I Remember your post and I actually responded with a pic of my yard which had 3+ when u said in your post the snow pack was 6 miles up 23. Go look back a few pages .

[NorthNJwx]

How much did you get in 09-10 and 10-11? I had 68" and 69.5" those years...

 

56.5" and 63.5". 2000-2001 (the second winter of my recordkeeping) had 58.8", which was a tight NW/SE gradient year. 70.2" in 02-03, easily surpassing 09-10 and 10-11 (though 10-11 is my favorite winter to date, more for being a far windier winter with nearly as much snow). 03-04 and 04-05 were both snowier than 09-10 as well, so in my 13 winters of recordkeeping prior to this winter, 09-10 is only 6th snowiest. It's in the middle of the pack. 

[sussexcountyobs]

Lt. snow falling rite now. Light dusting 21.8

[nzucker]

56.5" and 63.5". 2000-2001 (the second winter of my recordkeeping) had 58.8", which was a tight NW/SE gradient year. 70.2" in 02-03, easily surpassing 09-10 and 10-11 (though 10-11 is my favorite winter to date, more for being a far windier winter with nearly as much snow). 03-04 and 04-05 were both snowier than 09-10 as well, so in my 13 winters of recordkeeping prior to this winter, 09-10 is only 6th snowiest. It's in the middle of the pack. 

I had a lot in 09-10 because I got hammered in the Snowicane storm with 26" on 2/25/10....I was at just enough elevation, and far enough west, to stay all snow, and we had legitimate 3"/hour rates...hardest I've ever seen it snow. Notable snowfalls that year for Dobbs Ferry included 12.5" on 2/10, 8" on 12/19, and 6.5" on 2/16. We missed the 2/5 storm that hit the mid-Atlantic, but still managed an incredibly snowy February with nearly 50" of snow in one month!

 

2010-11 is my snowiest winter in my record-keeping with 69.5". I had 14.5" on 1/12, 14" on 1/27, 13" on 12/26, and 8" on 2/21. That was also my favorite winter because we had snow cover from late December into mid-February, a long stretch of brutally cold and stormy weather. I also picked up 1/2" of ice in the 2/1-2/2 storm, before winter took a break. The winter recovered somewhat with the 8" in late February and two minor snowfalls in late March when the -NAO popped back up. Cold was impressive with a low of 2F on 1/24 and several other low temperatures in the single digits.

 

I didn't measure in 02-03, but the town of Dobbs Ferry (downtown co-op) had around 60"...I probably got a bit more because I live at 350'. Notable snowfalls that year were 15-16" in the PDII storm and 12" in the Christmas event, which I had just enough elevation to get hammered in. I think I might have had just under 65", as my elevation also helped me accumulate about 3" in the early April event. The cold was also impressive...I remember standing huddled outside the HS during January waiting for parents to pick us up from school, and February was cold as well. It's too bad March was a dud that winter or it may have challenged records.

 

03-04 and 04-05 were about equal in Dobbs Ferry with 50" measured downtown...I probably had a little more as there were two storms with marginal temperatures in March 2004, which brings fond recollections of shoveling the tennis courts off to start spring varsity practice. Both of those storms delivered about 6-7" of snow around the spring equinox. I also have fond memories of Jan '04. We picked up three clippers I believe, all in very cold airmasses. None of the clippers did enough damage to cancel school, but there was a steady parade of 2-4" snow events. We definitely had some below 0F nights in January '04. 04-05 was a bit of a similar winter....I have vague recollection of the Jan '05 blizzard but better memories of the Hudson River freezing in the cold weather. Definitely a warmer winter overall than 03-04, but it produced a big January event and several decent snows in March. I know LI did better than Westchester in 03-04 and 04-05, but both were solid winters during my high school years. I preferred 03-04 as it was much colder, but the arctic outbreak in Jan '05 had some teeth to it as well.

[NorthNJwx]

I had a lot in 09-10 because I got hammered in the Snowicane storm with 26" on 2/25/10....I was at just enough elevation, and far enough west, to stay all snow, and we had legitimate 3"/hour rates...hardest I've ever seen it snow. Notable snowfalls that year for Dobbs Ferry included 12.5" on 2/10, 8" on 12/19, and 6.5" on 2/16. We missed the 2/5 storm that hit the mid-Atlantic, but still managed an incredibly snowy February with nearly 50" of snow in one month!

 

2010-11 is my snowiest winter in my record-keeping with 69.5". I had 14.5" on 1/12, 14" on 1/27, 13" on 12/26, and 8" on 2/21. That was also my favorite winter because we had snow cover from late December into mid-February, a long stretch of brutally cold and stormy weather. I also picked up 1/2" of ice in the 2/1-2/2 storm, before winter took a break. The winter recovered somewhat with the 8" in late February and two minor snowfalls in late March when the -NAO popped back up. Cold was impressive with a low of 2F on 1/24 and several other low temperatures in the single digits.

 

I didn't measure in 02-03, but the town of Dobbs Ferry (downtown co-op) had around 60"...I probably got a bit more because I live at 350'. Notable snowfalls that year were 15-16" in the PDII storm and 12" in the Christmas event, which I had just enough elevation to get hammered in. I think I might have had just under 65", as my elevation also helped me accumulate about 3" in the early April event. The cold was also impressive...I remember standing huddled outside the HS during January waiting for parents to pick us up from school, and February was cold as well. It's too bad March was a dud that winter or it may have challenged records.

 

03-04 and 04-05 were about equal in Dobbs Ferry with 50" measured downtown...I probably had a little more as there were two storms with marginal temperatures in March 2004, which brings fond recollections of shoveling the tennis courts off to start spring varsity practice. Both of those storms delivered about 6-7" of snow around the spring equinox. I also have fond memories of Jan '04. We picked up three clippers I believe, all in very cold airmasses. None of the clippers did enough damage to cancel school, but there was a steady parade of 2-4" snow events. We definitely had some below 0F nights in January '04. 04-05 was a bit of a similar winter....I have vague recollection of the Jan '05 blizzard but better memories of the Hudson River freezing in the cold weather. Definitely a warmer winter overall than 03-04, but it produced a big January event and several decent snows in March. I know LI did better than Westchester in 03-04 and 04-05, but both were solid winters during my high school years. I preferred 03-04 as it was much colder, but the arctic outbreak in Jan '05 had some teeth to it as well.

 

 

PDII dumped 24" here, and is my only storm larger than Dec 2010 (12/30/00 was 18", #3 on the list). 

 

I had 56.6" in 03-04, and 57.5" in 04-05. 6-7" in each of the March 2004 events you mentioned. My coldest temp to date actually came in January 2005 after that storm; -5 on one of the days. Below zero happens here from time to time, and I had a -3 one morning in Jan 2011. 

 

Most of the 09-10 events didn't fully pan out here, for whatever reason. I was away at college in PA for my freshman year in 09-10, but I transferred to NYU and was back for 10-11. 12/26-27, 2010 was an absolute blast here, with 22" of snow and measured gusts to 40 on my rooftop anemometer. The January 2011 events were not as big here, though, and I wasn't too broken up about that - constant snowcover doesn't really do me any good as a distance runner hoping to get in at least some trail running mileage during the winter. While I do love snow, I'm in the extreme minority in that I like it to melt; and I do prefer a good windstorm in most cases to snow, though blockbuster snow events are really tough to beat for me and in a category of their own. Of course, the snow and wind combo is where it's really at. 

[tamarack]

Records from UCC for the "3 reservoirs" (Oak Ridge, Canistear, Charlotteburg) show an avg of 40-43"/yr, at elev 880, 760, 1040 respectively. My NNJ records, for a location about 4 miles south of rwgp96 and 200' higher, are lost and only covered 8 winters (61-62 thru 70-71 with 64-66 missed due to college), but I can remember some of the data. IIRC, the avg for those 8 was about 55" - for the most part they were fine winters. Can remember the 102" in 66-67, with just over 30/month in Dec, Feb, Mar. (No records for 60-61; it's the winter that got me into measuring, too late alas, but retro-memory plus reservoirs data say about the same as 66-67 or a couple inches more. Fewer but bigger storms.) I'd guess that the long term avg for that spot would be somewhere 35-38", with occasional <10" stinkers along with the bounty years.

[rgwp96]

Records from UCC for the "3 reservoirs" (Oak Ridge, Canistear, Charlotteburg) show an avg of 40-43"/yr, at elev 880, 760, 1040 respectively. My NNJ records, for a location about 4 miles south of rwgp96 and 200' higher, are lost and only covered 8 winters (61-62 thru 70-71 with 64-66 missed due to college), but I can remember some of the data. IIRC, the avg for those 8 was about 55" - for the most part they were fine winters. Can remember the 102" in 66-67, with just over 30/month in Dec, Feb, Mar. (No records for 60-61; it's the winter that got me into measuring, too late alas, but retro-memory plus reservoirs data say about the same as 66-67 or a couple inches more. Fewer but bigger storms.) I'd guess that the long term avg for that spot would be somewhere 35-38", with occasional <10" stinkers along with the bounty years.

only issue is those stations only measure once a day, and also missing some data. I recall morristown averaging 35 i believe so im sure those numbers listed above are a tad higher as well as your old towns average. I estimate my average at 38-40

[snywx]

Isotherm has a nice snowfall map for you guys in NJ.. Seems to be pretty accurate

 

If you continue those contours north into the Hudson Valley and east toward Westchester & NYC you can get idea of their averages as well.. 

 

 

[Guest Patrick]

exactly what i was looking for, thank you!

Isotherm has a nice snowfall map for you guys in NJ.. Seems to be pretty accurate

If you continue those contours north into the Hudson Valley and east toward Westchester & NYC you can get idea of their averages as well..

[sussexcountyobs]

Isotherm has a nice snowfall map for you guys in NJ.. Seems to be pretty accurate

 

If you continue those contours north into the Hudson Valley and east toward Westchester & NYC you can get idea of their averages as well.. 

Great map. I saw one one time from Nj forestry service for Sussex Co. that was much moore detailed. Have no idea where to find it though. But this map looks prettyaccurate, got me right in the heart of that 55" range.

[IntenseBlizzard2014]

The average here is 30-33".

[IntenseBlizzard2014]

Also, I have recorded 13.5" of snow so far this winter.

[rgwp96]

Great map. I saw one one time from Nj forestry service for Sussex Co. that was much moore detailed. Have no idea where to find it though. But this map looks prettyaccurate, got me right in the heart of that 55" range.

that was the Appalachian trail snow map but its not online anymore.  this map has me in the 38-43, pretty much what i thought

[snywx]

The average here is 30-33".

Sounds about right.. I would think most of lower Westchester falls in that range. Northern Westchester is probably in the 40" range..

[nzucker]

Sounds about right.. I would think most of lower Westchester falls in that range. Northern Westchester is probably in the 40" range..

 

Mt Vernon is probably around 32-33"...they are a bit south of here, close to the LI Sound, and less elevation. My mom taught at Mt Vernon HS for 12 years, and a lot of times she wouldn't get delays/snow days when Dobbs Ferry had one. Definitely a bit milder and less snowy as you get closer to the City and closer to the Sound. 

[tamarack]

that was the Appalachian trail snow map but its not online anymore. this map has me in the 38-43, pretty much what i thought

And my old home might slip into the 33-38" stripe - looks right on the line. However, I'm guessing it to be 2-4" higher than what you'd average, simply because of the greater elevation. For many storms that 200' or so wouldn't make a difference; for a few, a big difference. Not a snow event, but the Jan 1953 ice storm which left us powerless for 6 days and took limbs off every large tree in sight of our house (except for the trees which snapped off completely) was mainly plain rain between Rt 23 and the Pequannock River in Butler. Head up Boonton Avenue hill and it was a different world.

[rgwp96]

And my old home might slip into the 33-38" stripe - looks right on the line. However, I'm guessing it to be 2-4" higher than what you'd average, simply because of the greater elevation. For many storms that 200' or so wouldn't make a difference; for a few, a big difference. Not a snow event, but the Jan 1953 ice storm which left us powerless for 6 days and took limbs off every large tree in sight of our house (except for the trees which snapped off completely) was mainly plain rain between Rt 23 and the Pequannock River in Butler. Head up Boonton Avenue hill and it was a different world.

yes no doubt, ive seen the difference the few hundred feet make many of times. u can see the difference from he bottom of riverdale hill to the top many times.  

[snywx]

Next friday is starting to look interesting for up here.. 

[Guest Patrick]

im out and can't see Any if the good images that everyone is excited about...i know we are the dirty step child of the ny metro, but it would be great if someone could explain what the maps mean for the nw burbs thanks guys n gals.

Next friday is starting to look interesting for up here..

[Animal]

Good evening interior folks,

 

If computer models are correct, we may just have enough snowfall to get decent cold temps near or below zero  later this week.

My true weather weenie is cold temps.  some of the valleys such as Suusex Airport shoud get below zero on Thursay or Frday.

My call is that Sussex airport hits - 5 on Friday morning

Warm day today. went tubing  at Mountain Creek....got knarly at times! 40 F currently

Bonus factor is that we should get 3-5 inches of  snow by next Monday!

 

Cheers,

 

Darkstar

[Animal]

I want to  wish the team(NW NJ/ Orange Rockland County NY) good luck while I am way.

I leave for Jackson Hole, WY for 2 weeks on Thursday this week. 

 

Cheers,

 

Matt

[96blizz]

Oh man Matt --- beautiful!  Hiked 77 miles in the Grand Teton National Park 2 years ago.  Just spectacular. 

 

In other news, the 6z GFS dumps on us.  We look good in this scenario so long as it's not suppressed.  Cutter seems to be less likely than it did yesterday.  Mller B would rock us...

[itsdnice]

Cold front is here ..winds have really picked up over the past 15 mins..

[IrishRob17]

Cold front is here ..winds have really picked up over the past 15 mins..

Nice!

[lab94]

Cold front is here ..winds have really picked up over the past 15 mins..

winds picking up a bit here. 46.8

[denvillenj]

Safe travels darkstar. Hopefully we're encased in 2 foot snowpack when you return

[sussexcountyobs]

Windy here also. Just retrieved my garbage can from the road. Got a high overcast/ filtered sun. 42.3