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Late December Discussion and Christmas um Event


Cold Rain

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snow western NC, Atlanta, GA north, all of TN,

Just to clarify this in GA it would at best be token flakes similar to flurries on the far back side of an exiting low pressure system. All the moisture is confined to 850mb and lower which pretty much means partly to mostly cloudy with passing flakes in far N GA.

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1) The NOGAPS isn't even worthy of being followed. It is a terrible model and isn't important. That's not just my opinion. That is an opinion shared by many met.'s. It may be as bad as the DGEX.

2) The 12Z Ukie is not idential to the 12Z CMC. The low goes over central GA about 150 miles west of Savannah. That track would easily be too far north/west for snow for the bulk of N GA outside of the mountains (and maybe even the mountains), which is the area I was addressing.

3) So, as far as I'm concerned, you have the 12Z CMC vs. all of the other credible models and with the more credible GFS/Euro runs being quite a bit further NW. So, it is close to a nobrainer which way to bet as of now and it certainly isn't the CMC.

I agree on the nogaps, I was just using it as another model weak and east compared to the two that are west of the apps Euro and GFS. The ukie is a miller A. While the track is inland, It is in the miller A camp compared to the miller b camp of the GFS Euro. Verbatim, the ukie would be a good run for the mtns based off that track. Let's see if both of those models hold tonight, or move to a miller B solution.
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1) The NOGAPS isn't even worthy of being followed. It is a terrible model and isn't important. That's not just my opinion. That is an opinion shared by many met.'s. It may be as bad as the DGEX.

2) The 12Z Ukie is not idential to the 12Z CMC. The low goes over central GA about 150 miles west of Savannah. That track would easily be too far north/west for snow for the bulk of N GA outside of the mountains (and maybe even the mountains), which is the area I was addressing.

3) So, as far as I'm concerned, you have the 12Z CMC vs. all of the other credible models and with the more credible GFS/Euro runs being quite a bit further NW. So, it is close to a nobrainer which way to bet as of now and it certainly isn't the CMC.

I'm not saying the CMC is right or wrong, but as I said earlier it was the first model to correctly figure out the stream separation with the February snow event this year. It isn't nearly as bad of a model as it's made out to be. The ECMWF overphases things like crazy, and the GFS is just bad in so many ways it's hard to name them all. Just because the CMC may over-deepen cyclones doesn't make it's flaws any worse than other models IMO.

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To me, the 00Z GFS looks pretty similar to its 12Z run, except it trended a little in its surface low and the way its wrapping up toward the 12Z EC. Its surface low positions are now almost identical to the EC, although not as deep. The GFS was not being aggressive enough in wrapping moisture and cold air around the center, and has trended toward the EC in this regard, though still not as much. It is important to recognize there are still substantial differences between the GFS and all the other models with the strength of the lead wave that moves through Monday, with the other models slower and more amplified. The GFS has trended toward that slower/deeper solution every run. It is likely that at least part of the reason the EC is stronger with the Christmas/Wed system is that it has an overall more amplified pattern and stronger baroclinicity in place because of the stronger lead system. If the 00Z EC holds serve with intensity and track, one would guess the GFS will continue to trend toward it - but given that this is a complex pattern that is certainly not a given.

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To me, the 00Z GFS looks pretty similar to its 12Z run, except it trended a little in its surface low and the way its wrapping up toward the 12Z EC. Its surface low positions are now almost identical to the EC, although not as deep. The GFS was not being aggressive enough in wrapping moisture and cold air around the center, and has trended toward the EC in this regard, though still not as much. It is important to recognize there are still substantial differences between the GFS and all the other models with the strength of the lead wave that moves through Monday, with the other models slower and more amplified. The GFS has trended toward that slower/deeper solution every run. It is likely that at least part of the reason the EC is stronger with the Christmas/Wed system is that it has an overall more amplified pattern and stronger baroclinicity in place because of the stronger lead system. If the 00Z EC holds serve with intensity and track, one would guess the GFS will continue to trend toward it - but given that this is a complex pattern that is certainly not a given.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I agree........I don't believe we have seen the final solution as of yet.

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I'm not saying the CMC is right or wrong, but as I said earlier it was the first model to correctly figure out the stream separation with the February snow event this year. It isn't nearly as bad of a model as it's made out to be. The ECMWF overphases things like crazy, and the GFS is just bad in so many ways it's hard to name them all. Just because the CMC may over-deepen cyclones doesn't make it's flaws any worse than other models IMO.

1) What % of the time has the GGEM scored a coup? Was that just an exception?

2) Based on my recollection of previous storms, I think that the CMC has a tendency for a bit of a too far south storm track bias on average. I can't prove this, however and don't know if it is documented anywhere.

3) It is genuinely very difficult for me to go with the CMC when the GFS/Euro have been a good bit further NW on run after run. I'm not saying it is nearly impossible,,,that's why I'm saying 5% chance as opposed to, say 1%. I'd certainly want 20:1 odds if I were betting on the CMC here.

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1) What % of the time has the GGEM scored a coup? Was that just an exception?

2) Based on my recollection of previous storms, I think that the CMC has a tendency for a bit of a too far south storm track bias on average. I can't prove this, however and don't know if it is documented anywhere.

3) It is genuinely very difficult for me to go with the CMC when the GFS/Euro have been a good bit further NW on run after run. I'm not saying it is nearly impossible,,,that's why I'm saying 5% chance as opposed to, say 1%. I'd certainly want 20:1 odds if I were betting on the CMC here.

Actually the CMC has a known bias of cutting storms to quickly actually. Obviously changes could've been made to help that but I'm not sure if changes have been made or not. But I do agree that the GFS/Euro track is more likely at this point.

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I'm not saying the CMC is right or wrong, but as I said earlier it was the first model to correctly figure out the stream separation with the February snow event this year. It isn't nearly as bad of a model as it's made out to be. The ECMWF overphases things like crazy, and the GFS is just bad in so many ways it's hard to name them all. Just because the CMC may over-deepen cyclones doesn't make it's flaws any worse than other models IMO.

Agree, Agree. I think the GFS and Euro are right with this going west of the Apps, but very much agree with the bolded, particularly in the 3-7 day range.

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