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December Forecast Discussion


Wow

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interestingly the gfs ensemble mean has looked similar to this for a few days. a weaker more suppressed solution. the -AO has done some dirty work finally.

Isn't the ensemble mean always weaker? or is that not what you mean by that?

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Isn't the ensemble mean always weaker? or is that not what you mean by that?

Not always no. Often times the operational will trend towards the ensemble mean. Especially as you get closer to a storm. I've always though ensemble forecasting is better to look at when you're in the day 5-7 range.

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The 18z GFS solution has been in my mind the past day or so when the models began trending this system weaker and pulling sort of a weaker versin of march '09 with the lack of a HP over the NE but the secondary low reforms so far south that it allows the 850 temps to crash east.

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Man, it sure is nice to at least see one model run show some snow. But I think we all know deep down that there is no way the 18z GFS is going to pull a coup on this storm over consistent runs of the Euro. BUT .. a glimmer of hope is better than no hope at all!

If the Euro continues the south and east trend tonight, then we might have a viable solution.

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Man, it sure is nice to at least see one model run show some snow. But I think we all know deep down that there is no way the 18z GFS is going to pull a coup on this storm over consistent runs of the Euro. BUT .. a glimmer of hope is better than no hope at all!

Given how the models have flipped and trended either one has about equal weight of being correct. We'll see tonight if the 18z was on crack but it seems just as realistic to me...then again I'm a weenie.

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Just curious, why is the 18z unrealistic in your opinion, especially given the trends?

CMC, Euro ENS, GFS ENS, JMA all show cutting inland and transfer to the coast, only question is how far south can it dig and than how far north it gets before transfer.

Now, maybe GFS is going to the nail this storm and this Op run leads the way...not likely though, IMO.

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There has been more than one ensemble members showing such a solution for numerous runs. It is definitely not out of the question.

Was going to mention that the 18z op is extremely similar to some of the individual ensemble members some folks have posted earlier.

Over and over again.... there is a huge post by a met in the met 101 forum that explains this.

Yes, the old mentality of the 18z GFS being automatically garbage is not correct. In fact, as for me personally, I don't discard the 6z and 18z like some do. A little less accurate? At times. Useless? Absolutely not.

Man, it sure is nice to at least see one model run show some snow. But I think we all know deep down that there is no way the 18z GFS is going to pull a coup on this storm over consistent runs of the Euro. BUT .. a glimmer of hope is better than no hope at all!

18z GFS solution is certainly not likely, but no one solution is likely at this point. All of the models, including the Euro, have struggled mightily in this chaotic pattern.

Do I expect this solution to happen? No. Is it within the realm is possibility? Yes. It's all about the timing and phasing of various disturbances.

The 12z wasn't far away from coming up with a solution like this. As the energy rounds the base of that trough and turns more negative tilt, the upper low closes off. I touched on this in my video this morning.

Nailing down the precise timing and location of that 5-7 days out? Good luck.

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CMC, Euro ENS, GFS ENS, JMA all show cutting inland and transfer to the coast, only question is how far south can it dig and than how far north it gets before transfer.

Now, maybe GFS is going to the nail this storm and this Op run leads the way...not likely though, IMO.

I would agree except just two days ago GFS and Euro had the low going to Chicago and the Lakes area...now here are slowly but surely moving south and east with it. Just look at the solution from the Euro today. Guess we shall see the closer we get to it.

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CMC, Euro ENS, GFS ENS, JMA all show cutting inland and transfer to the coast, only question is how far south can it dig and than how far north it gets before transfer.

Now, maybe GFS is going to the nail this storm and this Op run leads the way...not likely though, IMO.

I agree and like the discussion you bring here.

IMO, the last GFS run was not a trend. It was on the opposite end of the spectrum from other models...and we all want it to be right. Not likely to happen...but its a solution to watch.

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Yes, the old mentality of the 18z GFS being automatically garbage is not correct. In fact, as for me personally, I don't discard the 6z and 18z like some do. A little less accurate? At times. Useless? Absolutely not.

Agree 100% if they are useless why even run them? Why do we always look at them? But I'm not getting excited about this run until we see another run or other models jump on board with this solution.

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I agree and like the discussion you bring here.

IMO, the last GFS run was not a trend. It was on the opposite end of the spectrum from other models...and we all want it to be right. Not likely to happen...but its a solution to watch.

In a sense though it is a trend if you look at what the 12z did compared to what it was showing just a day ago...also look at the 6z .Not saying it will happen but as Matt said above every solution is on the table and credible.

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Huge differences in how the PV is handled between 12z and 18z GFS runs. I've never discounted the Miller A solution but I've never discounted the Miller B either. I think until we see how this system that turns into the PV is going to shape up we aren't going to know how far south this thing is going to go. If our surface low slides south of the CAD wedge, there isn't going to be a secondary low, which is what happened on this run. A very interesting set of 00z runs await us!

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We all know and have experienced storms that were progged to do something great for us 6-7 days out have trended a complete 180 in that timeframe. I throughly believe eventually we will get those trends in our favor for once.

Yes that's not scientific but we are still far enough out that a completely different solution than we haven't seen could easily happen. 18z is likely the extreme south and east solution given none of the ensemble members from previous runs has anything quite that far east. Keep your hopes up fellow southerners

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Looking at the individual ensemble members through 180 for the12z gfs run. It looks like 7 of the 10 members give The northern and especially north western part of the state accumulating snowfall. Some of those 7 have it farther south into NC as well. 18z individual members aren't available yet.

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I would agree except just two days ago GFS and Euro had the low going to Chicago and the Lakes area...now here are slowly but surely moving south and east with it. Just look at the solution from the Euro today. Guess we shall see the closer we get to it.

You have a good point, I think we can rule out the lakes cutter now. The good thing is we are still over 6 days away, and I would expect more changes, hopefully for the better :-)....although its hard to beat the 18z GFS for most of NC.

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Long ways to go, but if i HAD to make a choice...I'd say a piece of energy goes west of the Apps and transfers to the coast somewhere along the Virginia/NC border on the coast. I would say rain in the TN Valley of E TN, mtn snow, Piedmont mix to rain, and a big storm just west of the I-95 corridor and sliding of the coast before NYC gets too much.

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Long ways to go, but if i HAD to make a choice...I'd say a piece of energy goes west of the Apps and transfers to the coast somewhere along the Virginia/NC border on the coast. I would say rain in the TN Valley of E TN, mtn snow, Piedmont mix to rain, and a big storm just west of the I-95 corridor and sliding of the coast before NYC gets too much.

Like the majority of the 18z GFS ensemble members ...there were a few that were similar to the Op, but predominately miller b's.

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