Knightking2018 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 hours ago, tamarack said: Many years ago I read a book called Minus 148 (old scale, obviously), about an attempted winter ascent of Denali during which the climbers were pinned for days by very strong winds. Don Sheldon, the famed Denali-region bush pilot, flew to the mountain during the winds to check on those men, and he recounted a near hover above the same spot while his airspeed indicator was at 140 knots. Wow, did any of them survive? Wind chills that cold will freeze your exposed flesh in seconds. The wind chill would be -115F on todays scale. It does not sound any less extreme. My dad worked for the railroad back in the 1980s and he would sometimes get frostbite by wind chills of likely 50 to near 80 below on the old scale. About -35F to low -50s on the new scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 On 6/5/2018 at 3:06 PM, beavis1729 said: Good catch...and it's mentioned again here...although it (incorrectly?) says February instead of January. http://www.unionleader.com/Not-a-record,-but-windchill-on-Mount-Washington-hits--97 Since the modern wind chill algorithm went into use in 2000, the coldest wind chill atop Mount Washington was minus 107 in February 2004 when the air temperature was minus 44. Also, this link (see Slide 14 of 16 of the slideshow embedded in the article): http://www.wmur.com/article/photos-mount-washington-extreme-weather-facts/5133412 However, on Wikipedia and in a separate article, it mentions -103: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Washington_(New_Hampshire) http://knowbefore.weatherbug.com/2015/01/21/mount-washington-home-worlds-worst-weather/ On January 16, 2004, the summit weather observation registered a temperature of −43.6 °F (−42.0 °C) and sustained winds of 87.5 mph (140.8 km/h), resulting in a wind chill value of −102.59 °F (−74.77 °C) at the mountain I also saw Tamarack's post about the possibility of even colder wind chills on 1/8/1968 or late Dec. 1962...but I haven't been able to verify the WC at any moment on these dates. Here is a note about 1/8/1968 (the -150 WC estimate is on the old scale): http://articles.courant.com/1999-01-16/features/9901180664_1_chris-uggerholt-mount-washington-wind-chill/2 Jan. 8, 1968, is considered one of the worst weather days on record. The wind averaged 92 mph while the temperature ranged from 38 below zero to 46 below zero. That translated to an estimated still-air temperature of minus 150. An observer who went up in the tower that day to tend to the instruments returned with his eyelashes frozen shut. The -107°F came from an observer so I presume it was an in-between hour reading considering the -44°F temp was in-between as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 37 minutes ago, Knightking2018 said: Wow, did any of them survive? Wind chills that cold will freeze your exposed flesh in seconds. The wind chill would be -115F on todays scale. It does not sound any less extreme. My dad worked for the railroad back in the 1980s and he would sometimes get frostbite by wind chills of likely 50 to near 80 below on the old scale. About -35F to low -50s on the new scale. There were 4 in the party, and one was lost in a crevasse at relatively low elevation prior to the windstorm. The others continued, and all 3 survived. I can't remember if they retained all fingers and toes. (I read the book during the mid 1970s.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightking2018 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 10 hours ago, dendrite said: The -107°F came from an observer so I presume it was an in-between hour reading considering the -44°F temp was in-between as well. So wind chills that are colder may not be recorded. Like on wunderground where they typically go hour by hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 On 6/9/2018 at 2:39 AM, Knightking2018 said: So wind chills that are colder may not be recorded. Like on wunderground where they typically go hour by hour. Yeah...before automation you had mainly hourly obs. MWN had all analog recording instruments and a thorough climate record so they had all of the paper charts of instantaneous obs saved. The 1-min ASOS data archive goes back to the early 2000s so if there’s a record wind chill since then you could look up those and find the precise coldest minute. You’re pretty much stuck with the hourlies before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Knightking2018 said: Caesars Head, South Carolina. Temp -19F winds 20 mph wind chill -47F. Wind gusts up to 25-30 mph would put the wind chill in the low -50s. That is extremely impressive for South Carolina. The temperature is South Carolina's all time record low for the state. Also the state's highest point, not surprisingly. On a visit there 10-12 years back, I noted a hardwood forest more typical of NNJ, or even CT - altitude/latitude mix. I'm still not impressed with that "record" for Maine. Given the dozens of -40 or colder readings, it would be surprising if not a single one had even the 5 mph breeze that would kick WCI colder than -52. Van Buren, former holder of the state record at -48 (in 1925 - almost certainly no wind data), has had mornings -44 to -47 on 4 days 1984 onward - 1/22/84 -47; 1/11/95 -47; 1/16/09 -44; 1/26/09 -45. Fort Kent had -42 on 1/14/57 (maybe no wind data, either) and -30 on CAR's -52 morning. Clayton Lake, 70 miles WSW from CAR, dropped to -31 on 1/18/82 and probably was just as windy as CAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/7/2018 at 11:51 PM, Hoosier said: Looks like that was intrahour. That's the thing... these wind chill records are almost always going to be hourly readings since I don't think it's possible to find intrahour observation archives from long ago. Agree...but in this case, it seems to be actual reliable measured information...as opposed to an interpolated estimate or a guess based on mean winds (which some other numbers in this thread are based on). I'll go with -60 for the IL record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 3:04 PM, dendrite said: The -107°F came from an observer so I presume it was an in-between hour reading considering the -44°F temp was in-between as well. Yep, good point. I'll go with this number, as it appears to be reliable based on an actual measurement, as opposed to an estimate/interpolation based on mean winds at the time of the lowest temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 9:31 PM, Knightking2018 said: Like the January 1985 outbreak I had to take a conservative or fair estimate of what the wind chills were likely based on the temperatures and winds at nearby weather stations. Winds were typically between 20-25 mph where the coldest temperatures were recorded. Here is a reading from the airport in Emporia, Kansas on January 20, 1985. https://www.almanac.com/weather/history/KS/Emporia/1985-01-20. Temperature near -15F with winds of 19.1 to 26.35 mph with gusts to 40.28 mph The northeast part of Emporia usually got several degrees colder as it was 8 to 10 miles northeast of Emporia's airport. Lebo, Kansas which is about 15 miles east established a record low of -23F . http://www.intellicast.com/Local/History.aspx?month=1. If you take the -23F with 19.1 mph winds you get -52F on the new scale or a -70F on the old scale. If you take the -23F with 26.35 mph you get a -55F on the new scale or a -79F on the old scale. If you use gusts around 30 mph with a -23F temperature it puts the wind chill at -57F on the new scale or -83F on the old scale. So I used the more conservative value to estimate. My dad once told me the wind chills were 70 to near 80 below(old scale)back in the 1980s around the Emporia area. This is great information and probably mirrors the general conditions in the area on these dates...but for purposes of WC records, I don't think it's good "quality control" to use estimated/mean #'s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 11 hours ago, Knightking2018 said: It is like Wisconsin's coldest temperature is -55F in Couderay but the coldest wind chill I found was -57F in La Crosse. I know Wisconsin has had colder wind chills than that as well as Maine. The NWS in Caribou on Twitter told me they do suspect it would be around -60F or maybe a little bit colder than that. Records were poorly kept for those areas. If you look at Caribou, Maine on Wunderground on January 17, 1982 wind speeds ranged from 24.2 to 28.8 mph from 1:00 pm to 10:00 pm at 11:00 pm the temp is -23F with no wind data that goes into January 18, 1982 till 5:00 am then at 6:00 am it picks back up at 16.1 mph with a temp of -25F making the wind chill -52F. However I am not buying that. In between that period with no data there had to have been winds of at least 15-20 mph in each of those hourly slots. So I am going to go with a more fairer estimate. Caribou, Maine January 18, 1982 temp -28F winds 20 mph wind chill -59F. Not to mention the gusts were up to 43 mph. https://www.almanac.com/weather/history/ME/Caribou/1982-01-18 This is how I had to figure out Muncie, Indiana and I thought around -55F is a fair estimate. You put it as -57F and I think that is ok as well. I also found a better estimate for Wisconsin. Superior, Wisconsin January 10, 1982. Temp -31F winds 24 mph wind chill -65F. https://www.almanac.com/weather/history/WI/Superior/1982-01-10 The Farmer's Almanac data is actually using Duluth MN as an estimate for Superior WI, as it's the closest nearby station with reliable data. So, I only consider this an estimate for Superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 23 hours ago, tamarack said: Also the state's highest point, not surprisingly. On a visit there 10-12 years back, I noted a hardwood forest more typical of NNJ, or even CT - altitude/latitude mix. I'm still not impressed with that "record" for Maine. Given the dozens of -40 or colder readings, it would be surprising if not a single one had even the 5 mph breeze that would kick WCI colder than -52. Van Buren, former holder of the state record at -48 (in 1925 - almost certainly no wind data), has had mornings -44 to -47 on 4 days 1984 onward - 1/22/84 -47; 1/11/95 -47; 1/16/09 -44; 1/26/09 -45. Fort Kent had -42 on 1/14/57 (maybe no wind data, either) and -30 on CAR's -52 morning. Clayton Lake, 70 miles WSW from CAR, dropped to -31 on 1/18/82 and probably was just as windy as CAR. I agree that WCs in Maine have dropped lower than -52...but I haven't been able to find a measured hourly/intra-hour number that can be verifiable. I looked at the locations and dates you mentioned, but no luck yet. Will keep looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 14 minutes ago, beavis1729 said: Agree...but in this case, it seems to be actual reliable measured information...as opposed to an interpolated estimate or a guess based on mean winds (which some other numbers in this thread are based on). I'll go with -60 for the IL record. Agree... go with the reliable info when you have it. I just meant that the data to pick from is a bit limited by not having public access to the intrahour obs from many years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 For Maine...I know FVE had at least a -54F on 1/14/2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 hours ago, dendrite said: For Maine...I know FVE had at least a -54F on 1/14/2004. Good catch - verified on wunderground hourly obs. I don't remember that cold snap - must have targeted New England instead of the Midwest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 These WC records are intended to be actual measured readings of temperature and sustained winds (even if intra-hour), not interpolated estimates based on winds at nearby areas, and not to fill in missing data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightking2018 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 I know a lot of people who live in the Emporia and surrounding areas. I know a lady I worked with in Emporia who knows someone who has lived in Lebo their whole life. I also know someone who lived in Cassoday, Kansas in 1985 which had a record low of -20F with winds around 20 to 25 mph. I may even go to a historian and look for newspaper records. I will look under the sun if I have to find records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherbo Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 This is the most ridiculous sh*t ever! Point taken, Beavis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 56 minutes ago, weatherbo said: This is the most ridiculous sh*t ever! Point taken, Beavis! Ha...got to fill the summer downtime!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 hours ago, Knightking2018 said: You know it's because wunderground is a poor site in giving temps and wind chills. They dont keep records worth a crap. You also can't put Muncie, Indiana as -55F as there is no wind data on wunderground. I think old farmers almanac is more reliable than wunderground. Some of those others ones are also estimated. However you took Lebo, Kansas off as -52F. The Peters Sink, Utah one is not actually verifiable either. Ok, come on...this is not meant to be personal. All I'm trying to do is have a good list based on verifiable numbers. I'm a scientist, so it's important to have quality control of the data. It's not a personal vendetta. If others are estimated besides IN and KS, you're right that they shouldn't be on there either. It's a work in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone77 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Knightking2018 said: I am trying to contact Christopher Burt a historian and I know several the morning record lows in Kansas on January 20, 1985. They are Lebo, Waverly, Melvern, and Lyndon which were all -23F. Lebo and Waverly are in Coffey County. The other two are Cassoday and Matfield Green which both had record lows of -20F. Cassoday is in Butler County and Matfield Green is in Chase County. All of these places are near the I-35 corridor and winds were likely blowing between 15-25 mph. All of these are within a 35 mile or less radius of Empoia, Kansas. That would put the wind chills between -45F and -55F. So sorry for being a butt. Also Kirksville, Missouri can go back to -50F because I couldn't very the colder temp or stronger winds. Man, every time I see your user name this always pops in my head lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightking2018 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 32 minutes ago, cyclone77 said: Man, every time I see your user name this always pops in my head lol. My dogs name is Knight King. That is a cool picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloWeather Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, cyclone77 said: Man, every time I see your user name this always pops in my head lol. I cannot wait for the final season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/11/2018 at 12:38 PM, tamarack said: Also the state's highest point, not surprisingly. On a visit there 10-12 years back, I noted a hardwood forest more typical of NNJ, or even CT - altitude/latitude mix. I'm still not impressed with that "record" for Maine. Given the dozens of -40 or colder readings, it would be surprising if not a single one had even the 5 mph breeze that would kick WCI colder than -52. Van Buren, former holder of the state record at -48 (in 1925 - almost certainly no wind data), has had mornings -44 to -47 on 4 days 1984 onward - 1/22/84 -47; 1/11/95 -47; 1/16/09 -44; 1/26/09 -45. Fort Kent had -42 on 1/14/57 (maybe no wind data, either) and -30 on CAR's -52 morning. Clayton Lake, 70 miles WSW from CAR, dropped to -31 on 1/18/82 and probably was just as windy as CAR. I put in a request for data from Limestone (and some other sites) and had no luck with beating the -52F or -54F. If you want to look at the data for the fun of it (while it's temporarily still available) here are the links. HULhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72703399999-1943-02_4293847657710dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72703399999-1943-02_3085127657709dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72703399999-1943-02_5776307657714dat.html PQIhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72713014604-1943-02_1867547657715dat.html BGRhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72607099999-1943-02_7875057657716dat.html LIZhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1957-01_3553737658774dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1982-01_9431147658772dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1984-01_757727658775dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/99999994645-2009-01_7434377658776dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/99999994645-2009-01_6307047658777dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1980-12_791517658784dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1981-01_8358887658786dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/72712514623-1988-01_839277658787dat.htmlhttps://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/orders/isd/99999994645-2004-01_8407227658804dat.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimetree Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I have a distinct memory of a report on NBC nightly news from some time in the 80s where they said Mount Washington recorded a wind chill of -200. I'd have to think the -107 is more likely but maybe I'll try to find it in the archives somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, rimetree said: I have a distinct memory of a report on NBC nightly news from some time in the 80s where they said Mount Washington recorded a wind chill of -200. I'd have to think the -107 is more likely but maybe I'll try to find it in the archives somewhere. Old scale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 5:07 PM, beavis1729 said: Good catch - verified on wunderground hourly obs. I don't remember that cold snap - must have targeted New England instead of the Midwest. I suspect this was a Northeast-based cold wave. The winds never quit during the coldest days (Jan 14-15), suggesting backside winds from a strong LP. Many record low maxima were measured during those two days. Seeing all the Jan 1985 WCI records reminds me that NNE missed the worst of that huge polar dome, catching only the fringes. Lows for that month in N. Maine were in the -20 neighborhood, modest for that area. However, we never sniffed 32; most locales had month's "warmest" in the mid - or even low - twenties. Dendrite's links included the brief but shockingly cold Feb 1943 blast. The cold for that one was centered well south of places like PQI. NYC touched -8, their 3rd coldest morning on record and 6° colder than anything since, and PWM - a stone's throw from salt water - reached an amazing -39, probably in flat calm. Their coldest WCI for that period would more likely have been the evening before. After a subzero afternoon (about -5, though the day's high was -2 at 12:01 AM) the temp plunged to -32 at 11:59 PM. Their 3rd coldest day was -26, in Jan 1971. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 36 minutes ago, tamarack said: I suspect this was a Northeast-based cold wave. The winds never quit during the coldest days (Jan 14-15), suggesting backside winds from a strong LP. Many record low maxima were measured during those two days. Seeing all the Jan 1985 WCI records reminds me that NNE missed the worst of that huge polar dome, catching only the fringes. Lows for that month in N. Maine were in the -20 neighborhood, modest for that area. However, we never sniffed 32; most locales had month's "warmest" in the mid - or even low - twenties. Dendrite's links included the brief but shockingly cold Feb 1943 blast. The cold for that one was centered well south of places like PQI. NYC touched -8, their 3rd coldest morning on record and 6° colder than anything since, and PWM - a stone's throw from salt water - reached an amazing -39, probably in flat calm. Their coldest WCI for that period would more likely have been the evening before. After a subzero afternoon (about -5, though the day's high was -2 at 12:01 AM) the temp plunged to -32 at 11:59 PM. Their 3rd coldest day was -26, in Jan 1971. I poked around and looked for hourly temp/wind obs in Maine during late Feb 1943, but no luck so far. The -39 in Portland is even more shocking because, not only does it blow all other low temp readings out of the water in Portland...but it occurred relatively late in the season...on 2/26/1943. A cool 58 degrees below the 1981-2010 normal low of 19. Yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 hours ago, beavis1729 said: I poked around and looked for hourly temp/wind obs in Maine during late Feb 1943, but no luck so far. The -39 in Portland is even more shocking because, not only does it blow all other low temp readings out of the water in Portland...but it occurred relatively late in the season...on 2/26/1943. A cool 58 degrees below the 1981-2010 normal low of 19. Yikes. The -39F was on 2/16 along with the CON record of -37F. Maybe you just had a typo though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 49 minutes ago, dendrite said: The -39F was on 2/16 along with the CON record of -37F. Maybe you just had a typo though. Oops. I got it from this article...I guess they missed it. https://www.pressherald.com/2014/01/04/how_low_can_portland_temperatures_go__/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Knightking2018 said: I know on December 22, 1989 Colby, Atwood, Brewster, and Oberlin, Kansas had record lows in the -30s .However I can't find any wind data because either it is not there, it is missing hourly slots, or it just doesn't go back that far. I know winds in the area were likely around 5-10 mph but even the light winds would put the wind chills into the -50s. https://www.weather.gov/gld/climate-cwa-records Goodland had a temp of -26F or -27F with winds of 8 mph with a wind chill of -46F or -47F. https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KGLD/1989/12/22/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo= Have you tried here for hourlies? https://www7.ncdc.noaa.gov/CDO/cdoselect.cmd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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