Central PA - Is it really looking like Christmas?

[NortheastPAWx]

Sorry to hear that dude. Which math course is it again? I still think that the calculus used in meteo courses is not as difficult as the pure calc you get taught in the math courses. I've heard from many fellow classmates that math 141 was the hardest course in the meteo curriculum. I think physics 212 should be up there as one of the hardest too.

It was 141 that wound up being my undoing. I actually did all right with stuff like series and sequences, but the integrals took me to hell. I got murdered in chapter 7. Yeah, a lot say 141 was the most difficult, but my adviser said that even if I got past 141, 230/251 would still be a struggle if I had just a waived D. Not to mention the 400-level meteo courses (sans ofc my Wx Comm courses; I still want to finish both 481 and 482 as electives).

Oh, and I barely passed Physics 211. Can't imagine the hell I would go through in 212. x_x

You are not the only one who had to leave meteo due to math. From my freshman year, easily 1/3 of my classmates left meteo within a year due to math. Most stayed in the college though, pursuing less quantitatively demanding majors like geography or EME. You can still apply meteo (or more specifically climatology) to a lot of what is offered in these.

One of my friends actually also dropped out of Meteo this semester. He got double whammied by M140/P211 twice. So, he's moving on as well. One of my mom's friends - her son was a PSU Meteo major but also got killed I think by the physics - he wound up majoring in finance and has actually done quite well for himself. I'm not sure what I want to do, but I think I'll wind up transferring out of EMS entirely. History has been my second calling, but it's a tough market for it...

(ETA: I have thought about climate and geosciences as well.)

[MAG5035]

It was 141 that wound up being my undoing. I actually did all right with stuff like series and sequences, but the integrals took me to hell. I got murdered in chapter 7. Yeah, a lot say 141 was the most difficult, but my adviser said that even if I got past 141, 230/251 would still be a struggle if I had just a waived D. Not to mention the 400-level meteo courses (sans ofc my Wx Comm courses; I still want to finish both 481 and 482 as electives).

Oh, and I barely passed Physics 211. Can't imagine the hell I would go through in 212. x_x

One of my friends actually also dropped out of Meteo this semester. He got double whammied by M140/P211 twice. So, he's moving on as well. One of my mom's friends - her son was a PSU Meteo major but also got killed I think by the physics - he wound up majoring in finance and has actually done quite well for himself. I'm not sure what I want to do, but I think I'll wind up transferring out of EMS entirely. History has been my second calling, but it's a tough market for it...

(ETA: I have thought about climate and geosciences as well.)

I was in pretty much the same boat as you are with 141. That damn class was responsible for half of my late drop credits. After the second time of late dropping 141 I took the 141g course that I had mentioned about the other day and had much better luck with it. I took both physics 211 and 212 when I was still at Penn State Altoona. I actually took P212 and M141 concurrently the first time I took 141 and got through 212 ok but not 141. Not sure if that's something I would recommend but at the time I was stlll trying to get those classes completed cuz M140/141 and P211/P212 were a C or better requirement within your first two years to get into the College of engineering, or at least be considered for it.

I originally started college as a civil engineering major with meteorology 2nd choice of major. Needless to say, I didn't make those requirements in time but I got right into the EMS college. It's kinda funny that I'm pretty sure meteorology ends up having more math than even that (civil engineering doesn't require math 230). Ultimately I'm glad that I ended up in meteorology because that was what I had a lifelong interest in. But it's def not a major for the faint of heart when it comes to the math and physics and I personally struggled a good bit to finally achieve my met degree. As neffsville said, it's not a race and there's nothing wrong with retaking something if need be. But there's also nothing wrong in deciding that it's best in trying something else if you feel that the math/physics is too much.

[NortheastPAWx]

I was in pretty much the same boat as you are with 141. That damn class was responsible for half of my late drop credits. After the second time of late dropping 141 I took the 141g course that I had mentioned about the other day and had much better luck with it. I took both physics 211 and 212 when I was still at Penn State Altoona. I actually took P212 and M141 concurrently the first time I took 141 and got through 212 ok but not 141. Not sure if that's something I would recommend but at the time I was stlll trying to get those classes completed cuz M140/141 and P211/P212 were a C or better requirement within your first two years to get into the College of engineering, or at least be considered for it.

Last semester at Hazleton I tried P211 and M141 concurrently. Bad decision, never doing it again. I got through 211 but was forced to drop 141. 140 i not a C or better requirement for meteo but i got through it with a C+ (Was actually a B- but then I lost a couple points late in the transfer of the background knowledge probe from one prof to another -_-). But man, CoE...brutal. I think I'd wind up tossing myself off the top of the Old Main bell tower at some point. XD

I originally started college as a civil engineering major with meteorology 2nd choice of major. Needless to say, I didn't make those requirements in time but I got right into the EMS college. It's kinda funny that I'm pretty sure meteorology ends up having more math than even that (civil engineering doesn't require math 230). Ultimately I'm glad that I ended up in meteorology because that was what I had a lifelong interest in. But it's def not a major for the faint of heart when it comes to the math and physics and I personally struggled a good bit to finally achieve my met degree. As neffsville said, it's not a race and there's nothing wrong with retaking something if need be. But there's also nothing wrong in deciding that it's best in trying something else if you feel that the math/physics is too much.

Yeah, EMS obviously is more relaxed with their requirements. Seriously - CE doesn't require M230? That's crazy! But I guess the rest of the pain in the arse math would make up for it. Do engineers have to take M300s? I'm too lazy to look on eLion. And believe me, meteo has been a lifelong interest for me as well - I've been into weather since the '96 blizzard. It's just - it's gotten to be torture for me - 10 months of it and not getting anywhere. x_x So, I just...history is my second passion, primarily Civil War, then 1920s - 1991 (WW2, Soviet era, etc). I've also lost half my late-drop credits to M141 with this drop, so...yeah.

[Rick G]

From a College prof (adjunct): See if you can take the course somewhere else. see if there is an equivilent offering at a another school. Have you tried another instructor? ALso see if you do an independent study. Don't give up! One last thing, Calculus is a tough master, it may be the one thing you think you cannot handle. IF you have to, take a break. At least you know what you don't know.

[MAG5035]

Last semester at Hazleton I tried P211 and M141 concurrently. Bad decision, never doing it again. I got through 211 but was forced to drop 141. 140 i not a C or better requirement for meteo but i got through it with a C+ (Was actually a B- but then I lost a couple points late in the transfer of the background knowledge probe from one prof to another -_-). But man, CoE...brutal. I think I'd wind up tossing myself off the top of the Old Main bell tower at some point. XD

Yeah, EMS obviously is more relaxed with their requirements. Seriously - CE doesn't require M230? That's crazy! But I guess the rest of the pain in the arse math would make up for it. Do engineers have to take M300s? I'm too lazy to look on eLion. And believe me, meteo has been a lifelong interest for me as well - I've been into weather since the '96 blizzard. It's just - it's gotten to be torture for me - 10 months of it and not getting anywhere. x_x So, I just...history is my second passion, primarily Civil War, then 1920s - 1991 (WW2, Soviet era, etc). I've also lost half my late-drop credits to M141 with this drop, so...yeah.

Haha, they need 140, 141, 220 (2 credit course on matrices) and math 251 for their basic math courses. But anyways if you do decide to continue with meteo and give 141 another go I would seriously suggest looking into Math 141g before it fills up for the spring. As I said the other night, it is geared for earth and mineral science students and it has a more favorable format. Not guaranteeing the same, but when I took this course.. the way this was formatted grade-wise was all quizzes. No HW, no big exams, no final. The prof would go through the material during the week and have a quiz day on it every Friday. It was usually pretty short like 5 or 10 questions and as long as you didn't miss more than a couple you would "master" that quiz. The best part is, if you don't master it the first time.. you could retake it during the next quiz day until you finally master it. Can't remember but once you master i'd say probably 70% of the quizzes you were guaranteed at least a C. Then of course your grade goes higher on however many more you can get above that minimum. The final is essentially retaking the ones that you haven't mastered. So yea, not guaranteeing that's still how they do that particular class or if it was just a certain prof that did that.. but I mean I kicked myself in the arse that I didn't see that before I took the regular math 141 the second time at UP.

Another thing to consider, with Math 230.. you can actually split that class in half via 2 credit courses with Math 231 & 232. That way, instead of ramming all the material into one semester...you'll have half the material at once and thus would be a bit easier to grasp. You can take Meteo 300 concurrently with 231 and it'll get you through 411 (synoptic lab) and 431 (atmospheric thermodynamics) as a prerequisite before you need the other half of it (math 232) for meteo 421 (dynamic meteo). I also noticed on the schedule of courses that Meteo 300 is not even offered spring 2013 so technically you wouldn't be losing time in terms of being able to start into your core classes by retaking Math 141 this spring.

So pretty much I don't think your at a point of no return or anything like that with this. It's a setback for sure but I think you would be ok if you decided to stick with it and just work hard to make sure that you grasp those major calc fundamentals. As Jmister alluded to, your not going to see the pure calculus that you get taught in these math courses but eventually you will see the fundamentals of it when you have to derive/integrate/etc atmospheric equations and all that fun stuff.

[MAG5035]

Meanwhile, back on the weather front... it continues to look dry and generally seasonable the next several days. I thought a couple days ago that it was starting to look like models we're honing in on bringing the first winter-like cold shot to our neck of the woods Thanksgiving weekend but lately it doesn't appear that's going to be the case. Thanksgiving day looks quite warm actually right now.. probably 55-60ish verbatim on models. Tonights GFS does eventually get a colder gradient look to it by the end of Thanksgiving weekend and beyond, but it doesn't unleash anything ridiculous yet. 0z Euro to 240 has a northern branch wave cool it off for T-giving weekend but at 240 got a nice midwest storm ready to cut. We're talkin lol range though, so that is of course up to change. I do think it's a matter of time though, as the NAO appears to be trying to make another run at negative in the longer range. The cold air is going to be available, and snowcover in Canada is much improved from last year. Sticking points right now are a continued forecast -PNA and a pretty neutral-somewhat positive AO. Gonna need the AO to make a dive to release the really cold stuff out of Canada.

[NeffsvilleWx]

Sorry to hear that dude. Which math course is it again? I still think that the calculus used in meteo courses is not as difficult as the pure calc you get taught in the math courses. I've heard from many fellow classmates that math 141 was the hardest course in the meteo curriculum. I think physics 212 should be up there as one of the hardest too.

You are not the only one who had to leave meteo due to math. From my freshman year, easily 1/3 of my classmates left meteo within a year due to math. Most stayed in the college though, pursuing less quantitatively demanding majors like geography or EME. You can still apply meteo (or more specifically climatology) to a lot of what is offered in these.

Neffsvillewx: Even as a grad student I RARELY use calculus outside of courses. The obscure parts of calculus (trig substitution, rotation of solids, etc.) I never have used outside of calc 1 and 2. Statistics becomes much more important at least in my experience for research dealing with sea surface temperature. I think in general, unless you are a pure dynamicist, calculus is not as essential after courses as statistics.

As someone who is still trying to get into the field career wise (and still not having much luck), I don't use it at all currently. It kinda makes me glad I kept all my books/notes from the core 300/400 level classes cuz I would need a refresher with some things for sure haha.

It depends on what specific thing your doing within the met field. The high end math would be used most frequently in research type settings and less in operational forecasting/TV broadcasting. I'm sure our grad mets in here (JMister and Mallow) use it regularly for their classes. Either way, anyone achieving a met degree has to go through those required courses that are heavy on the calc/physics to achieve that understanding of how the atmosphere works in a mathematical sense. One obvious importance of that of course is that our computer models apply these complicated atmospheric equations to try to forecast what it will do in advance. It makes it nice from a forecasters perspective because the computer model is doing all the math, but it still helps to have that knowledge of what it's calculating and why.

Thanks, that pretty much confirms my suspicion. It's similar to engineering. I've been involved in the electronics field for my entire career and have worked closely with engineers. The amount of math they actually use is slim to none. When asked, not a single one could even integrate a simple equation.

The math is required to graduate, not to do your job (for the most part). You've got software, models and calculators once you graduate. Academia has a very poor grasp of what it's actually like in "the real world."

If you're thinking about switching majors, I'd seriously look into the job market of any potential majors first. I have so many friends who have 4 year degrees who still live at home and work retail because they can't find a job. IMO, there's no point in graduating with a degree in something you love, if you can never find a job doing it.

[Scummyratguy]

Great point about the job market. Got my BS in Met from Millersville, and quite a few that I graduated with ('06) still do not work in Meteorology. I'm among them, but opportunity knocked for me flipping houses and no regrets there. Bottom line about the advanced math is that your ability to perform obscure calculations/derivations does not make you a better forecaster or give you a leg up in the job market.

Onto the weather...I'm looking forward to early Dec for the arrival of winter.

[JamieOber]

Meanwhile, back on the weather front... it continues to look dry and generally seasonable the next several days. I thought a couple days ago that it was starting to look like models we're honing in on bringing the first winter-like cold shot to our neck of the woods Thanksgiving weekend but lately it doesn't appear that's going to be the case. Thanksgiving day looks quite warm actually right now.. probably 55-60ish verbatim on models. Tonights GFS does eventually get a colder gradient look to it by the end of Thanksgiving weekend and beyond, but it doesn't unleash anything ridiculous yet. 0z Euro to 240 has a northern branch wave cool it off for T-giving weekend but at 240 got a nice midwest storm ready to cut. We're talkin lol range though, so that is of course up to change. I do think it's a matter of time though, as the NAO appears to be trying to make another run at negative in the longer range. The cold air is going to be available, and snowcover in Canada is much improved from last year. Sticking points right now are a continued forecast -PNA and a pretty neutral-somewhat positive AO. Gonna need the AO to make a dive to release the really cold stuff out of Canada.

Did you hear about the Euro weeklies? Look cold first half of December.

[JamieOber]

Crazy radiational cooling here right now. Currently 27.3 IMBY, I saw State College is 39. Checked my neighbor's therm, same, 27. Smoke coming out of chimneys is hanging low over town, temp inversion.

[Santa Clause]

November is the blandest weather month ever!!! We can now resume the regularly scheduled program.

[JamieOber]

First teens of the year, lowest temp so far: 18.3

[MAG5035]

First teens of the year, lowest temp so far: 18.3

It hit 22ºF last night down here with heavy, heavy frost. We've definitely been stringing together the cold nights. Clouds holding temps up some tonight but still quite chilly.

I did hear about the Euro weeklies and it appears that this potential cold is starting to show up more in the longer range of the models. After some back and forth for a while a few days ago with whether or not we were going to see a significant cooldown.. models are now focusing a pretty decent cold shot this weekend for PA which is likely to trigger the first lake effect of the season and perhaps getting some snow on the ground just in time for deer season in the higher elevations.

This weekend shot looks transient..as models have it moderating some early next week as the weekend system pulls away. Just beyond that though is when I think we should keep an eye out for a more established winter pattern to start unfolding. We shall also see just how much we moderate as well, though I don't think it is going to be overly warm. Latest AO forecast starting to show more of a pronounced drop with most ensemble members thus indicating that some of this cold air locked up in Canada could get released into the US. PNA still remains negative for now with some spread at the end of the forecast period showing it may try to rise. NAO still forecast to head negative. Pretty much my take attm is that it looks like the cold will probably focus central and west initially with us either on the wrong side of the gradient or right in the battleground before eventually taking over the east. Do think we're shaping up pretty good for some early winter action overall though once we get into early December. Certainly looking a heck of a lot different than last year at this time.. that's for sure.

AO

NAO

PNA

[LVblizzard]

I wonder if the PSU game on Saturday could have some lake effect activity. Even if it's light, it would be an awesome way to end the season.

[EasternUSWX]

Hey guys check this out that I am working on.

[djr5001]

re: the calculus -- it depends ultimately on what you end up doing as to how much you ever use it if ever at all. That is one thing that makes the meteorology field so great (rather than lack of jobs) is there are a number of different directions you could go within it. I rarely ever use calculus and when I do I can easily use excel formulas to simplify things. I would not recommend giving up when you have such a passion following the weather based on one course.

[EasternUSWX]

Nothing else going on, here is a little model porn.

[MAG5035]

And then the 0z GFS just keeps it cold indefinitely after Friday with a snow threat middle of next week.

[EasternUSWX]

And then the 0z GFS just keeps it cold indefinitely after Friday with a snow threat middle of next week.

Somehow with a rocketing AO

[EasternUSWX]

Euro has a snow storm for Central PA. Woot woot. GFS has support.

[MAG5035]

Euro has a snow storm for Central PA. Woot woot. GFS has support.

Hmm yea it does, pretty similar looking to the GFS actually. Precip is mainly below I-80 on Euro. Way out there yet of course... the bigger overall development I see happening in this evenings model runs is that the cold weather is just locking in without very much moderation after the weekend cold shot. Models like the GFS had some pretty cold runs here and there the last few days amidst alot of runs where we warmed back up and cold loaded the west and central. The trend has def been our friend as we're getting closer to next week. Still a bit leery on next weeks evolution yet, but my confidence is pretty high on it getting cold and having some snow flying this weekend for alot of us. Liking the look of things going forward.

[canderson]

We're off to Texas for the Thanksgiving week/weekend, so I want to wish everyone here a safe, fun, relaxing holiday. Eat well and maybe next week we can work on getting a snow event for the region!

[sauss06]

We're off to Texas for the Thanksgiving week/weekend, so I want to wish everyone here a safe, fun, relaxing holiday. Eat well and maybe next week we can work on getting a snow event for the region!

Have a safe trip and enjoy the time with your family!

[EasternUSWX]

Hello. Oh what i'd do for some snow.

[Eskimo Joe]

Looks like another ho-hum Thanksgiving weather wise. But at least it should yield a decent Black Friday for the business owners.

[sauss06]

Looks like another ho-hum Thanksgiving weather wise. But at least it should yield a decent Black Thursday and Friday for the business owners.

Fixed for you!

it'll be a nice day to decorate outside and consume frosty Miller High Lifes too

[JamieOber]

November is the blandest weather month ever!!! We can now resume the regularly scheduled program.

At least there's sun. I remember my freshman year in high school down in York, walking to school with friends in November and thinking man, this cloudy mild weather sucks! Fortunately, that year, 81-82, was a decent winter.

[pasnownut]

Fixed for you!

it'll be a nice day to decorate outside and consume frosty Miller High Lifes too

Where's the like button....

Happy Thanksgiving all.

Nut

[WmsptWx]

At least there's sun. I remember my freshman year in high school down in York, walking to school with friends in November and thinking man, this cloudy mild weather sucks! Fortunately, that year, 81-82, was a decent winter.

This. I'm kinda "traditionalist" in my mind and the weather in some ways makes the environment for holidays more festive and enhanced, in my opinion. I'd prefer for the weather around Thanksgiving time to be cold and overcast with maybe the possibility for snow showers or something like that, but I can handle a sunny environment as long as it's cold. Warm and sunny and (especially) warm and cloudy bum me out.

I've been "ok" with it being sunny this week, though.

[sauss06]

since i most likely won't be on the forum tomorrow, i'd like to wish all you guys a Happy Thanksgiving. And if i'm not on over the weekend, good luck to all those heading to the bush for the tropheys. Signs are looking good for us hunters.