NorEaster27 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Insurance companies have a higher hurricane deductible with most policies. Its just the opposite effect of this post, not being a hurricane at landfall (some policies may have hurricane force gusts, not sure about that part) prevents the higher deductibles from kicking in. If you had a hurricane clause in your policy but didnt have flood insurance you are screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If you had a hurricane clause in your policy but didnt have flood insurance you are screwed. Everyone is Zone A and most of Zone B is under the FEMA federal flood zone. If the property has a mortgage, then it's required to have had Flood Insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainshadow Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 As an FYI, its also based on actual observations, not what NHC advisory statements say or don't say. We went through this with Irene even before the post assessment downgrade to tropical storm at landfall. There were no hurricane force gusts on land in NJ with Irene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 It was a great way to save face. Several good points have been made already by others. It is clear from below that the NHC continues to question when Sandy transitioned. More likely than not, shore areas were being affected by tropical storm conditions prior to the landfall and before the transition. I suspect that the NHC should have explained (just as they did below) in their tropical/hurricane watches and warnings that Sandy would be transitioning into a non-tropical entity, but that the timing would be unclear. I saw many people interviewed on the news that simply stated "There's no hurricane warnings for this one, so I'm going to ride it out." Another issue is this: all of these products are very nice and all, but honestly, who views them? The word warning has a lot of meaning to people, a long paragraph of expected conditions and other meteorological dribble does not hit home with folks. The NHC packages and SPC's by the NWS, etc. are detailed and well thought, but I don't feel that they reach the masses the way a warning does. "THE CONVECTIVE STRUCTURE OF SANDY HAS DETERIORATED TODAY...EVEN AS THE CENTRAL PRESSURE HAS CONTINUED TO SLOWLY FALL...SUGGESTING THAT THE CONVECTION IS NO LONGER DRIVING THE BUS. THE INTENSIFICATION OBSERVED THIS MORNING WAS ASSOCIATED WITH STRONG WINDS OCCURRING TO THE SOUTHWEST OF THE CENTER...OUTSIDE OF THE CENTRAL CORE...AND WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY DUE TO BAROCLINIC FORCING. IN ADDITION...AIRCRAFT DATA INDICATE THAT THERE ARE STRONG TEMPERATURE CONTRASTS VERY NEAR A MODEST RESIDUAL WARM CORE. WATER VAPOR IMAGERY INDICATES THAT SANDY IS BECOMING ABSORBED WITHIN A LARGE MID-LATITUDE CYCLONIC CIRCULATION. ALL OF THESE CONSIDERATIONS LEAD US TO CONCLUDE THAT THE MOST APPROPRIATE CLASSIFICATION AT ADVISORY TIME IS EXTRATROPICAL. HOWEVER...FOR CONTINUITY OF SERVICE NHC WILL CONTINUE TO ISSUE ADVISORIES THROUGH LANDFALL. A POST-STORM ANALYSIS WILL RE-EXAMINE THE TIMING OF EXTRATROPICAL TRANSITION." As an FYI, its also based on actual observations, not what NHC advisory statements say or don't say. We went through this with Irene even before the post assessment downgrade to tropical storm at landfall. There were no hurricane force gusts on land in NJ with Irene. Unfortunately some people don't believe that, Tony (see above)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunny and Warm Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If you had a hurricane clause in your policy but didnt have flood insurance you are screwed. I know of no home insurance policy that covers flooding. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorEaster27 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Everyone is Zone A and most of Zone B is under the FEMA federal flood zone. If the property has a mortgage, then it's required to have had Flood Insurance. Not correct zone b is not a federal flood zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorEaster27 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I know of no home insurance policy that covers flooding. None. Flood insurance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Not correct zone b is not a federal flood zone Some of it is. Christie said just now that FEMA funds are available to all people with damage in NJ. I'm sure it's the same in NY. Disaster declarations allow for FEMA to release money to people without insurance also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I know of no home insurance policy that covers flooding. None. Correct. Only a separate flood insurance policy covers it. FEMA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainshadow Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Unfortunately some people don't believe that, Tony (see above)... Just to be clear, I was responding to how the determination for hurricane deductibles is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan11295 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I wonder if the NHC ever planned for this contingency, an (ultimately damaging) hurricane transitioning into a post-tropical storm while heading to the coast like that. I am trying to think of any other, less significant obviously, storm that did this. Obviously this happens in the Canadian maritimes not too infrequently. CHC just used to issue generic wind/rain warnings for TC's, until Juan. Then in years following they began issuing TS/Hurricane Warnings. I think I have seen CHC leave TS warnings up for storms after NHC declares it post-tropical rather than take them down (or not issue them at all). Dont know if the CHC has a set procedure in that specific situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorEaster27 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Some of it is. Christie said just now that FEMA funds are available to all people with damage in NJ. I'm sure it's the same in NY. Disaster declarations allow for FEMA to release money to people without insurance also. yes FEMA will be providing money to everyone affected I think anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag3 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 yes FEMA will be providing money to everyone affected I think anyway. I heard FEMA is providing money to anyone who is declared in a disaster area. And they're also providing unemployment benefits for someone who can't work in those areas. People need to apply. It's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mempho Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 In fact, Sandy was NOT a tropical entity at landfall based on imagery and HH's in there at the time. It appears to have disintegrated a couple hours prior to landfall. Most of the damage we see along the Jersey coast and NYC/LI was caused by a sting jet brought to the surface by a MAUL. The MAUL itself was precipitated by the dissolution of the tropical entity. It just so happened that all this occurred near a population center. I think everyone involved at the NWS did a fantastic job. Did an active tropical entity bring tropical Storm conditions to any portion of coastline that was not under warning? Landfall of a tropical entity is not a prerequisite for issuing a warning. It's all about conditions experienced at the coast. U say this because the call was not even technically correct based on the preliminary best track. I say this because the primary defense people are using is that the decision wad technically correct. I don't buy that the decision has to be technically correct in the first place, but how can the defense be that you were technically correct if, by the book, you were incorrect.? Sent from my Milestone X 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunny and Warm Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Did an active tropical entity bring tropical Storm conditions to any portion of coastline that was not under warning? Landfall of a tropical entity is not a prerequisite for issuing a warning. It's all about conditions experienced at the coast. U say this because the call was not even technically correct based on the preliminary best track. I say this because the primary defense people are using is that the decision wad technically correct. I don't buy that the decision has to be technically correct in the first place, but how can the defense be that you were technically correct if, by the book, you were incorrect.? Sent from my Milestone X 2 Mempho, not trying to be a snot, but can you restate your post. I read it 3 times and still can't figure out some of what your saying. If you are asking did Sandy bring TS conditions north of the area where TS warnings were issued AND while she was tropical, it looks to be a close call, but the answer may be no. I don't know what prelim best track means. Please explain? Overall though, if Sandy had maintained TS status into and through Jersey, I have a hunch the damage into NYC/LI would have been greatly reduced since the sting jet may not have materialized over that area as it did. This may be an example of an either/or situation, where if you change Sandy's status technically, you get a different actual result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famartin Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Did an active tropical entity bring tropical Storm conditions to any portion of coastline that was not under warning? Landfall of a tropical entity is not a prerequisite for issuing a warning. It's all about conditions experienced at the coast. U say this because the call was not even technically correct based on the preliminary best track. I say this because the primary defense people are using is that the decision wad technically correct. I don't buy that the decision has to be technically correct in the first place, but how can the defense be that you were technically correct if, by the book, you were incorrect.? Sent from my Milestone X 2 You should probably review the NHC 5PM discussion on 10/29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stellarfun Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The NHC is well aware of the consequences of categorizing a storm as a tropical storm or hurricane. Insurers cease writing policies for casualty insurance within the state of Florida (or at least for most of the state) when a tropical storm or hurricane enters the 'box'. Image from http://www.sihle.com/blog/hurricane-season-has-begun I don't know whether similar 'boxes' exist for other states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm At Sea Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Sooo....before 5PM there were no tropical storm conditions experienced in MD, DE, or NJ? You should probably review the NHC 5PM discussion on 10/29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewave Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Dennis Feltgen, a spokesman for the hurricane center, declined to comment on AccuWeather's criticisms, but in an interview on Tuesday, John Cangialosi, a hurricane specialist at the center said he doesn't "totally disagree" with AccuWeather's criticisms. "We had a hurricane headed toward the coastline and no hurricane warnings. That confused a lot of people," he said. Cangialosi said the hurricane center issues tropical storm watches and warnings and hurricane watches and warnings. But for other types of storms, the warnings are handled by local Weather Forecast Offices, which issue non-tropical storm warnings. In a conference call with reporters on Tuesday, Dr. Rick Knabb, director of the National Hurricane Center, said he still thought it was "overall the best course" to use local Weather Forecast Office watches and warnings to avoid a switch in warnings midstream. Brian McNoldy, senior research associate at the University of Miami, said overall, the predictions on the storm were excellent, but he does question the decision not to issue hurricane warnings, especially since the storm was basically a category 2 hurricane just two hours before it made landfall. "I think people generally tend to take a hurricane warning more seriously than a high wind warning," he said. But given all the hype about the severity of the storm, McNoldy said word managed to get out anyway. http://www.reuters.c...E8A101K20121102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 While I disagreed with the NHC decision to not issue warnings/watches I thought our local NWS offices did a phenomenal job given a difficult set of circumstances. They went out of their way to communicate with us and their products really nailed the severity of the event. The local NWSFOs should really be proud of the work they did... and from what I can tell the coordination they were doing with state emergency managers... probably saved lives. The biggest issue with the NHC decision was that it just didn't make sense to the average public weather consumer. I made the decision here at my station to just call the thing a hurricane the entire time and not even mention the fact that there weren't hurricane warnings in effect. Others, in the media (and even Bloomberg at his presser), spent precious time explaining the nuances and semantics of the storm's classification. I thought that was a mistake and was likely confusing.... taking time away from relaying just impact-based forecasts. Here in CT we were well prepared especially after what we went through during Irene and the October snowstorm. I'm not sure other parts of the northeast took the warnings as seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellice Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I think many, many people are now grateful for that non-hurricane status. I had no idea there was a "hurricane deductible" in NJ that would require individuals to pay much more if the storm was officially classified a hurricane. http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2012/11/christies_order_makes_it_offic.html And don't think that Christie's order would have held up in that court had that reclassification not taken place. Insurance companies would have argued that it was an illegal seizure of assets. And don't think that private insurance companies would have forgiven the deductible because the situation is so disastrous. Private companies are not around to serve the public but to make money for shareholders. In this case, the strict factual declaration is going to help millions financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I think many, many people are now grateful for that non-hurricane status. I had no idea there was a "hurricane deductible" in NJ that would require individuals to pay much more if the storm was officially classified a hurricane. http://www.nj.com/bu...s_it_offic.html And don't think that Christie's order would have held up in that court had that reclassification not taken place. Insurance companies would have argued that it was an illegal seizure of assets. And don't think that private insurance companies would have forgiven the deductible because the situation is so disastrous. Private companies are not around to serve the public but to make money for shareholders. In this case, the strict factual declaration is going to help millions financially. At least in CT the hurricane deductible only kicks in when there's a hurricane warning issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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