Hurricane Sandy - LIVE - Impacts

[dan11295]

Thats with wealth normalization (i.e. factoring in development of an area and not just adjusting damages at the time for inflation).

[Hoosier]

US death toll now over 100.

[andyhb]

Deadliest non-tornadic natural disaster in the US now since Katrina I believe.

[thewxmann]

Deadliest non-tornadic natural disaster in the US now since Katrina I believe.

You mean since Hurricane Ike.

[Sunny and Warm]

Interesting article out about the hybridization of Sandy from UCAR.

http://www2.ucar.edu...idization-sandy

[Amped]

Interesting article out about the hybridization of Sandy from NCAR.

http://www2.ucar.edu...idization-sandy

If 1938 was moving 70mph and Sandy was moving 30 that would almost explain the difference in windspeed observed by itself, no need to say "1938 had a better core" I've heard estimates that range from 45-70mph.

[andyhb]

You mean since Hurricane Ike.

Ah, yes, but perhaps not for long.

[NorthNJwx]

I was looking at the data from my station on the south end of Long Beach Island (it kept reporting until after the power went out and my netbook's battery died, during the early morning hours of 10/30) and found that my lowest pressure measurement was 27.94", which is 946 mb. My station is 10-15 miles NE of Sandy's approximate landfall point in the vicinity of Atlantic City. My barometer is calibrated, and should be quite accurate. Here is my data: http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KNJLONGB3&month=10&day=29&year=2012

I checked the NHC's landfall advisory from 8pm 10/29, and saw that it listed Sandy's minimum central pressure at 27.93"/946 mb. I was wondering if any stations with accurate data got a lower reading than mine. I was able to find one - an official station, at that - from Atlantic City. I believe this is the station that houses the AC tide sensor: http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=acyn4

It measured a minimum pressure of 945.5 mb at 6:24 pm. My station's minimum pressure came at 7:32 pm, indicating that northward jog the center took just after it made landfall. Here's the data from Atlantic City, showing the 945.5 mb minimum pressure:

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_menu.shtml?bdate=20121029&edate=20121029&metinterval=&unit=1&shift=g&stn=8534720&type=Meteorological+Observations&format=View+Data

The NHC nailed Sandy's minimum pressure at landfall, based on the obs from my station and the AC station.

[BeauDodson]

Posted all of my photographs over here - in case some of you missed the thread in the Middle Atlantic Forum

http://beaudodson.sm...76895&k=nfqPNmS

It was, to say the least, one of the most spectacular events I have ever witnessed (when it comes to snow). The snow had a blue tint - because of the water content. When know it snowed more than 3' - we just don't know how much more than that. I would guess over 40 inches. At some point the weight of the snow caused compacting.

[bobbutts]

Posted all of my photographs over here - in case some of you missed the thread in the Middle Atlantic Forum

http://beaudodson.sm...76895&k=nfqPNmS

It was, to say the least, one of the most spectacular events I have ever witnessed (when it comes to snow). The snow had a blue tint - because of the water content. When know it snowed more than 3' - we just don't know how much more than that. I would guess over 40 inches. At some point the weight of the snow caused compacting.

These two you took in particular were impressive to me. I can't get over the volume and consistency of that snow!

--------------------------

Also wanted to post this opinion from Brian Norcross' blog

And then there's the HELP WANTED sign in the Mayor's window.

I didn't really see the sign, but clearly the Chief of Common Sense position is vacant. I lived in New York up until a couple of years ago, and always thought Mr. Bloomberg was a terrific mayor. But something has gone seriously wrong. From the amateur meteorology before the storm to the marathon fiasco in the aftermath, the flagrant fouls and unforced errors have tarnished what I'm sure is an all-out effort to do what's best for the city and its people. Hopefully they can right that ship.

When the crisis has past and the people are taken care of, the time will come to figure out how the mayor of America's greatest city was so misinformed or misguided that he told people they didn't have to evacuate and then changed his mind 24 hours later... while the storm didn't change at all. In truth, even the various governors who had the right message were late into the game. There's something broken here that needs an urgent fix.

[isohume]

Not sure if this was posted anywhere...but good article on the NWS's efficiency and worth.

http://theweatherguru.com/2012/11/national-weather-service-pays-for-itself-again/

[CT Rain]

Just saw that the NWS is going to have Mike Smith co-lead the Sandy service assessment.

It's a bit surprising since Smith has been very critical of the NWS and the service assessment process particularly the NHC's handling of Sandy and the NWS/Service Assessment process following Joplin.

[CT Rain]

Just saw that the NWS is going to have Mike Smith co-lead the Sandy service assessment.

It's a bit surprising since Smith has been very critical of the NWS and the service assessment process particularly the NHC's handling of Sandy and the NWS/Service Assessment process following Joplin.

Service assessment is now dead.

http://meteorologicalmusings.blogspot.com/2012/11/hurricane-sandy-nws-assessment.html

Ironic that the NHC used the Irene SA to justify not issuing warnings... and the SA that would look at their lack of warnings in Sandy will no longer take place.

Not sure what the reason was or if a larger (maybe independent or multi agency?) is now being considered.

[dan11295]

I cannot imagine that some form of review will not be done, given the impact and unusual nature of the event and given the decision to not issue Hurricane Warnings, etc. It is really just a question how how that is going to be handled.

[Southland Wx]

Frist post in eons for me here, but I have to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Smith that this should be an EXTERNAL review. NWS/NOAA needs a major, clear, unbiased understanding of what happened here. An internal/multi-agency review would be of almost no use in my opinion, as it would likely absolve much of the blame for what may have gone wrong here and not tackle questions that need to be answered quickly.

[MGorse]

Frist post in eons for me here, but I have to say, I agree wholeheartedly with Smith that this should be an EXTERNAL review. NWS/NOAA needs a major, clear, unbiased understanding of what happened here. An internal/multi-agency review would be of almost no use in my opinion, as it would likely absolve much of the blame for what may have gone wrong here and not tackle questions that need to be answered quickly.

Are you referring to why hurricane warnings were not issued?

[Ground Scouring]

Are you referring to why hurricane warnings were not issued?

The warnings were not issued because the local WFOs never requested them, right? I heard that claim from a NWS source on another forum.

[MGorse]

The warnings were not issued because the local WFOs never requested them, right? I heard that claim from a NWS source on another forum.

Not completely correct, at least from my understanding. There was internal coordination between the NWS Eastern Region HQ (ERH), the National Hurricane Center and I believe management from the affected WFO's regarding watches and warnings. Basically ERH did not want Eastern Region WFO's having to switch from tropical to non-tropical headlines in the middle of the event as Sandy transitioned and went post-tropical. It was felt that the switch would lead to confusion and also add more work for the WFO's. I do not know all the specifics since I was not on every conference call, however the WFO's went along with this so everyone was on the same page. The line had to be drawn somewhere, therefore a decision was made. The whole idea of hurricane warnings not being issued falling on only the NHC is not correct. There was internal coordination prior to the ultimate decision.

[Southland Wx]

Are you referring to why hurricane warnings were not issued?

Not completely correct, at least from my understanding. There was internal coordination between the NWS Eastern Region HQ (ERH), the National Hurricane Center and I believe management from the affected WFO's regarding watches and warnings. Basically ERH did not want Eastern Region WFO's having to switch from tropical to non-tropical headlines in the middle of the event as Sandy transitioned and went post-tropical. It was felt that the switch would lead to confusion and also add more work for the WFO's. I do not know all the specifics since I was not on every conference call, however the WFO's went along with this so everyone was on the same page. The line had to be drawn somewhere, therefore a decision was made. The whole idea of hurricane warnings not being issued falling on only the NHC is not correct. There was internal coordination prior to the ultimate decision.

Mike, Yes...that's what I am referencing. The local WFOs did saint's work during this storm. And I hope that that is something that comes out in a review as well. But, whatever went on upstairs between NHC and the ERH or whomever...someone dropped the ball on the technical definition, and I think it had a negative impact on the communication and response of people in the path and officials preparing for it. At some point, I think technicalities need to be sacrificed for a better communication message (specifically in extreme cases, such as this)...and that's what I am hoping comes out here because I feel this has been a long-term issue. Any of the technicalities can be handled postseason. But in my opinion (based on my interactions with friends/family impacted and what I read, saw, and witnessed leading up to and after the storm from my perspective), there should have been hurricane warnings because they have substantial impact that other warnings just do not. And that's why I want to see an independent, objective external review (if it's at all possible) to see if this is indeed the case.

[MGorse]

Mike, Yes...that's what I am referencing. The local WFOs did saint's work during this storm. And I hope that that is something that comes out in a review as well. But, whatever went on upstairs between NHC and the ERH or whomever...someone dropped the ball on the technical definition, and I think it had a negative impact on the communication and response of people in the path and officials preparing for it. At some point, I think technicalities need to be sacrificed for a better communication message (specifically in extreme cases, such as this)...and that's what I am hoping comes out here because I feel this has been a long-term issue. Any of the technicalities can be handled postseason. But in my opinion (based on my interactions with friends/family impacted and what I read, saw, and witnessed leading up to and after the storm from my perspective), there should have been hurricane warnings because they have substantial impact that other warnings just do not. And that's why I want to see an independent, objective external review (if it's at all possible) to see if this is indeed the case.

A better communication message involves all parties and not just the NWS/NHC.

The NJ Governor ordered evacuations before any watches or warnings were issued. We can argue that hurricane warnings would have made a difference, and they may or may not have. People react differently, and even just because a hurricane warning was in effect or not but also by what state and local officials are saying. I can see this going the other way, hurricane warnings in effect then NHC declares it post-tropical prior to landfall and then some complain why hurricane warnings are up as it is not tropical anymore. I can honestly see both sides of the debate about having or not having hurricane warnings up, but it tends to be frustrating reading comments on different sources when people do not even know what was all involved regarding the decisions.

My intent is to pass along information of how the thought process went down (from what I understand, as I was not involved in all the conference calls). There was a clear reason for no hurricane warnings and that was because there was concern that when Sandy went post-tropical then those warnings would have to be changed to non-tropical ones. This occurring during the event would not only be confusing, but a lot more work for all the affected WFO's, and that is what was to be avoided. Right or wrong, there was intent for the decisions that were made. Looking back, perhaps this is what should have taken place...hurricane warnings issued and then maintain these all the way through despite the storm becoming post tropical (would there be complaints about this? Probably). As somewhat of a side note, I am pretty sure that inland WFO's are not able to issue tropical headlines. This means that my offices forecast area would have been under a hurricane warning but WFO's State College and Binghamton would be under a high wind warning (in the case with Sandy, all were under high wind warnings). I think this would have added some confusion.

I hope that a solid assessment is done for this event, as there are several things that need to be addressed.

[DaculaWeather]

As somewhat of a side note, I believe that inland offices are not able to issue tropical headlines. This means that my offices forecast area would have been under a hurricane warning but WFO's State College and Binghamton would be under a high wind warning (in the case with Sandy, all were under high wind warnings). I think this would have added some confusion.

If that is indeed true, the system should have been handled by the NHC all the way through. What does it matter to the general public that it goes non-tropical before landfall, that doesn't change the fact that we had 80 mph winds or severe storm surge. i don't understand the "big" deal about tropical/non-tropical when the storm didn't changed it's characteristics except for technicalities. Tremendous disservice to the public IMHO. You can quibble about the core characteristics all you want, as far as most people were concerned that lived there, it was a hurricane.

[MGorse]

If that is indeed true, the system should have been handled by the NHC all the way through. What does it matter to the general public that it goes non-tropical before landfall, that doesn't change the fact that we had 80 mph winds or severe storm surge. i don't understand the "big" deal about tropical/non-tropical when the storm didn't changed it's characteristics except for technicalities. Tremendous disservice to the public IMHO. You can quibble about the core characteristics all you want, as far as most people were concerned that lived there, it was a hurricane.

Perhaps I am not following you correctly regarding the bolded text above. If the inland WFO's cannot issue tropical headlines, there would be a mix of tropical and non-tropical headlines up at the same time. That to me would be more confusing. NHC does not issue headlines for inland counties, only coastal, and they were handling it all the way. The NHC was issuing advisories all the way through landfall.

[DaculaWeather]

I've seen tropical storm warnings pretty far inland. How far are you talking about?

[MGorse]

I've seen tropical storm warnings pretty far inland. How far are you talking about?

There used to be inland tropical storm/hurricane wind warnings, however those were done away with.

I will try and give you an example in my local area. My office's forecast area is all under a hurricane warning. Lancaster County, PA on westward which is WFO State College's area would then be under a wind advisory or high wind warning, yet just to the south hurricane or tropical storm warnings would be up. This is because my office and WFO Sterling are coastal offices (issue tropical headlines) while WFO State College is an inland office and cannot issue tropical headlines.

[DaculaWeather]

Then how do they do it down south here when we have hurricanes?

[MGorse]

Then how do they do it down south here when we have hurricanes?

I am honestly not sure as I do not work down there and there are different regions of the NWS. Has there been hurricane or tropical storm watches/warnings (not the older inland wind ones) issued all the way inland to northern Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.? From what I understand, if a WFO is a coastal one then they are able to issue tropical headlines for their entire forecast area.

[Southland Wx]

A better communication message involves all parties and not just the NWS/NHC.

The NJ Governor ordered evacuations before any watches or warnings were issued. We can argue that hurricane warnings would have made a difference, and they may or may not have. People react differently, and even just because a hurricane warning was in effect or not but also by what state and local officials are saying. I can see this going the other way, hurricane warnings in effect then NHC declares it post-tropical prior to landfall and then some complain why hurricane warnings are up as it is not tropical anymore. I can honestly see both sides of the debate about having or not having hurricane warnings up, but it tends to be frustrating reading comments on different sources when people do not even know what was all involved regarding the decisions.

My intent is to pass along information of how the thought process went down (from what I understand, as I was not involved in all the conference calls). There was a clear reason for no hurricane warnings and that was because there was concern that when Sandy went post-tropical then those warnings would have to be changed to non-tropical ones. This occurring during the event would not only be confusing, but a lot more work for all the affected WFO's, and that is what was to be avoided. Right or wrong, there was intent for the decisions that were made. Looking back, perhaps this is what should have taken place...hurricane warnings issued and then maintain these all the way through despite the storm becoming post tropical (would there be complaints about this? Probably). As somewhat of a side note, I am pretty sure that inland WFO's are not able to issue tropical headlines. This means that my offices forecast area would have been under a hurricane warning but WFO's State College and Binghamton would be under a high wind warning (in the case with Sandy, all were under high wind warnings). I think this would have added some confusion.

I hope that a solid assessment is done for this event, as there are several things that need to be addressed.

Thanks for your honest commentary on this, Mike.

I just feel the whole tropical/non-tropical debate is not worth having until now...I don't think many would have cared when it was very obvious that this was going to be a monster event. The borderline cases? Sure...I understand people's frustration, and in those cases, I don't think NOAA/NHC will ever be able to satisfy everyone...and that's no fault of their own at all. But in a situation such as this, I just really think the ball was dropped somewhere along the line. I just hope the assessment gets done and provides us some good insight as to what went on, why it did, and whether or not it was legitimately a mistake or not.

As an aside, major, major kudos to your office, Mike. Like I said before, you guys did saint's work during this event. You guys did an exemplary job in my opinion. I pointed many friends/family in your direction many times and I think they all came away pleased (and best of all, safe).

[DaculaWeather]

It's been a while since we've had one very far inland Mike, I'll see if I can look back and find out.

And to echo Southland WX, I think everyone up that direction did an outstanding job Mike, thanks for the great work and dedication from you and your entire office.

[MGorse]

As an aside, major, major kudos to your office, Mike. Like I said before, you guys did saint's work during this event. You guys did an exemplary job in my opinion. I pointed many friends/family in your direction many times and I think they all came away pleased (and best of all, safe).

It's been a while since we've had one very far inland Mike, I'll see if I can look back and find out.

And to echo Southland WX, I think everyone up that direction did an outstanding job Mike, thanks for the great work and dedication from you and your entire office.

Thanks, much appreciated! My office even had a forecaster from WFO New Orleans here to help out.

[isohume]

Perhaps I am not following you correctly regarding the bolded text above. If the inland WFO's cannot issue tropical headlines, there would be a mix of tropical and non-tropical headlines up at the same time. That to me would be more confusing. NHC does not issue headlines for inland counties, only coastal, and they were handling it all the way. The NHC was issuing advisories all the way through landfall.

I agree. The coordination on the NHC conference calls accounted for this possibility very well I thought and left no room for ambiguity. Also, the NHC said all long that the transition to post-tropical would not weaken Sandy, rather it would likely strengthen her. This is the message that should have been given to the public via the media etc., moreso than telling folks they disagreed with no hurricane warnings being issued.