Find your exact elevation here

[powderfreak]

Mayja winta stawm is an awesome name, haha. Definitely from Mass.

[HoarfrostHubb]

Mayja winta stawm is an awesome name, haha. Definitely from Mass.

[Ginx snewx]

Weenies love our threads! Is there any stat that tells us how many folks live above 2500 ft in NNE?

[MarkO]

errors are much larger with GPS units when it comes to vertical. Best bet is probably interpolating USGS maps. Google earth is pretty good as well. That's probably where that site gets its data from.

Also, don't trust topo from plans you find on record. Many times vertical control may be an assumed datum. Some cities and towns have GIS databases tied to a specific datum which can get you within a few feet of vertical. That site had me at 200 here in Lowell and 1100 in NH based on the elevation of where I keep my thermometers (about eye level).

[CapturedNature]

Best difference around here is I-84 from Vernon which is around 200 feet..As soon as yo see the Tolland sign it starts climbing up the hill and you typically go rain/rain snow mix to snow halfway up the hill to accumulating snow at the top of that hill which is right around or just under 900 feet. From there on it's hvy hvy winter

I go from 200' to close to 1000' by Johnson Memorial Hospital on 190 in a just a few miles. I love those days driving into the valley and there's no snow down there but we have snow!

I think Scott mentioned seeing a difference in a few hundred feet and I get that experience occasionally going from the center of town up to my house. I've seen it raining down there and snowing and sticking at my house. I'm convinced that 650' is the magic number to start seeing enhancement around here...lol.

[Sugarloaf1989]

As I'm a bit of a tree geek myself, I found this to be interesting conversation.

As a pioneer species, white (paper) birch typically is one of the first trees to grow in a new forest. They're fast growing and require ample sunlight. Since most of the woodlands around SNE are now becoming older, I don't think white birch is as abundant as it used to be. SNE is also near the southern most point of their range.

A lot of the white birches in the woods around here are older and not too healthy. As the woodlands are generally thick with sugar maple, white ash, red maple, beech, and red oak, there are very few younger white birch trees. There are a lot more young yellow and sweet birch trees, but not white birch for whatever reason.

Here is an image of the woodlands around here and how the paper birches typically appear:

What's weird about the tree species around here is that there seems to be a rather dramatic demarcation line between the typical SNE coastal forests and the NNE acadian forests that you normally find around here. You go from a forest dominated by various oak species (white, black, scarlet, and red), hickory, and red maple to one dominated by sugar maples, aspen, beech, birches (white, yellow, and sweet) and white ash within a matter of about 5 miles. It seems like the transition starts around 500-600' and is complete by 1200-1300'. While there are exceptions and overlap (especially with regard to white ash and red oak), the transition is rather sudden. Above about 1600' you start getting some northern boreal species like black and red spruce thrown into the mix and the red oaks begin to thin out.

There is a renegade population of tulip poplars in the Stockbridge, Great Barrington area. I have no idea how they got there since they pretty much stop in SW CT. Perhaps they were introduced and then naturalized, but these trees look like they grew naturally. There are also some isolated populations of white oak around here too, but we're much closer to their natural range than tulip poplar.

Our White Birch here are nearly all found along road edges and field boarders where they get lots of sun. Since my town was mostly farmland 75 -100 years ago and alot of our forest is about 50 years old or less and subsequently the White Birch here are mostly very young and healthy. They exist here on Grant Hill which is the highest part in town and North into Tolland and east along I-84 in Sturbridge and north of these spots into Massachusetts.

There are little to no White Birch growing in South Coventry and southbound from there. I seem to be near the southern edge of where they like to grow naturally and they seem to like it above about 750' in elevation in Northern Connecticut. I wish that we had Bigtooth Aspen but they don't grow naturally in my part of Connecticut.

Northwestern Massachusetts has some HUGE White Birch growing on the southern slopes of Mohawk State Forest that date from about around 1930. They have trunks with a diameter large enough for a man to hide behind.

[CoastalWx]

I go from 200' to close to 1000' by Johnson Memorial Hospital on 190 in a just a few miles. I love those days driving into the valley and there's no snow down there but we have snow!

I think Scott mentioned seeing a difference in a few hundred feet and I get that experience occasionally going from the center of town up to my house. I've seen it raining down there and snowing and sticking at my house. I'm convinced that 650' is the magic number to start seeing enhancement around here...lol.

Will would agree too, as do I.

I love Rt 190. Such a weenie road.

[weatherMA]

I used to use mapmyrun, but waaaay too many ads now that crash my computer. I use Google Earth/maps/etc.

When we lived in Shrewsbury MA at 630' we often did much better than 3 miles west on the lake. The ice storm in 2008 left our neighborhood with 3/4" radial ice and hundreds of trees down, while just down the hill around 400' there was all rain. I called in to work in Worcester (9 minute drive) and they said "what do you mean you can't get in?"

Now that I live at 5670' the elevations are different but the effect is the same. We typically get 10-20% more snow than downtown Denver at 5300', and Parker (6000', 10 miles SE) gets 20% more than us.

PS- it rained >0.25" here today for the first time since July 7th. Snow over 13K. Yay!

Not "all rain", but still, this is true. I remember school being cancelled and being very confused, as my neighborhood was hardly damaged. Drove up a few 100' to the center of town and it was like a war zone. Wish I would've known about this forum for that storm...wouldve been awesome to hear the obs....

[wxmanmitch]

I'm always fascinated by the tree species up in NH too. I love that spruce look....gives it a colder feel and also those beech and aspen too. We actually used to have a cedar grove in this area...some areas of cedar still around. Otherwise, some of the trees here I think date back to 1900 or perhaps earlier? Huge maples, and trees where I'm unsure of the species.

I know the look you're speaking of. There are a few spruces in the northern lakes region to near Plymouth, especially on colder east facing slopes. They become much more abundant in the White Mountains and Great North Woods.

I'm a bit too warm for that north woods spruce look around here, but up near 2K in Peru and points north along and near the crest there are quite a sizable population of them. 2K+ in the northern Berks and southern Greens looks a bit like interior Maine or Coos county NH with that mixed spruce, hardwood forest.

Our White Birch here are nearly all found along road edges and field boarders where they get lots of sun. Since my town was mostly farmland 75 -100 years ago and alot of our forest is about 50 years old or less and subsequently the White Birch here are mostly very young and healthy. They exist here on Grant Hill which is the highest part in town and North into Tolland and east along I-84 in Sturbridge and north of these spots into Massachusetts.

There are little to no White Birch growing in South Coventry and southbound from there. I seem to be near the southern edge of where they like to grow naturally and they seem to like it above about 750' in elevation in Northern Connecticut. I wish that we had Bigtooth Aspen but they don't grow naturally in my part of Connecticut.

Northwestern Massachusetts has some HUGE White Birch growing on the southern slopes of Mohawk State Forest that date from about around 1930. They have trunks with a diameter large enough for a man to hide behind.

I'll have to see if I can find those white birches, I don't think I've ever seen any that large. The biggest I've seen have about 18-24" diameter as most of them will die before reaching about a 12-18" diameter.

[HoarfrostHubb]

Tons of birch trees in my backyard. We had a big, fat dead one topple over last winter. Thankfully it fell away from my house. I actally will need to cut some down this fall/next sring. It pains me to do so since they are so pretty.

Are they white birch/paper birch?

[CoastalWx]

I have felt that we have lost some birch around here over the last 15 yrs. A disease has really caused issues.

[HoarfrostHubb]

I have felt that we have lost some birch around here over the last 15 yrs. A disease has really caused issues.

Do you remember the gypsy moth invasions of the early 1980s?

Decimated the oaks in huge numbers

[CoastalWx]

Do you remember the gypsy moth invasions of the early 1980s?

Decimated the oaks in huge numbers

Yeah I do. The south shore still has a problem with them. Sometimes on rt 3 heading to the Cape, you can see patches of oak trees that are bare in July.

[Sugarloaf1989]

I know the look you're speaking of. There are a few spruces in the northern lakes region to near Plymouth, especially on colder east facing slopes. They become much more abundant in the White Mountains and Great North Woods.

I'm a bit too warm for that north woods spruce look around here, but up near 2K in Peru and points north along and near the crest there are quite a sizable population of them. 2K+ in the northern Berks and southern Greens looks a bit like interior Maine or Coos county NH with that mixed spruce, hardwood forest.

I'll have to see if I can find those white birches, I don't think I've ever seen any that large. The biggest I've seen have about 18-24" diameter as most of them will die before reaching about a 12-18" diameter.

The large White Birch exist on the south facing slopes in Mohawk Trail State Forest just south of Route 2 and the campground. There are also large ones growing deep inside Sages Ravine, but that area is still all natural old growth forest.

[Sugarloaf1989]

Do you remember the gypsy moth invasions of the early 1980s?

Decimated the oaks in huge numbers

We are supposed to have Wolly Edelgid infesting our Hemlocks here in Connecticut as well as Beech Girdler, but so far both species here seem healthy. There are huge tracts of American Beech south of me in Meshomasic Forest where we go mining, but they all look healthy to me.

[SouthCoastMA]

I use the "Get Altitude" app. It lists my location at 119' which is kind of surprising. I would have figured under 30ft or so.

[Allenson]

I'm always fascinated by the tree species up in NH too. I love that spruce look....gives it a colder feel

We're inside the spruce/fir zone here. They're more often found in the cool hollows whereas the hillsides are more in the northern hardwood vein.

Weenies love our threads! Is there any stat that tells us how many folks live above 2500 ft in NNE?

Don't know of any official stats but I would hazard to guess, not many at all. Outside of trailside condos at the ski areas, habitation stops at around 2k.

[ChrisM]

We're inside the spruce/fir zone here. They're more often found in the cool hollows whereas the hillsides are more in the northern hardwood vein.

Don't know of any official stats but I would hazard to guess, not many at all. Outside of trailside condos at the ski areas, habitation stops at around 2k.

I looked around some of the towns with the highest mean elevations in NE and I could only find roads going up to around 2000 feet. I'm sure there are a few hundred or so people living in NE at 2.5k but they're definitely bearded and have pony-o's.

[powderfreak]

We're inside the spruce/fir zone here. They're more often found in the cool hollows whereas the hillsides are more in the northern hardwood vein.

Don't know of any official stats but I would hazard to guess, not many at all. Outside of trailside condos at the ski areas, habitation stops at around 2k.

I really don't know of anywhere that folks are above 2500ft. Even ski resort condos. Stowe's highest homes are only around 1800ft or so near Mansfield, and around 2000ft on the east side of town on the Worecester Range.

Bolton Valley has a community up between 2000-2400ft...but nothing higher. I have several friends that own condos up there...and 2200ft is waaaay up there to live, brutal in winter but 250"+ on the west slope there. I've seen 6 feet on the ground in a friends yard.

You also have to know in Vermont there is Act 250 which is specifically aimed at (not) developing land above 2500ft. It makes it almost impossible to build up at that height due to the amount of environmental impact studies, permits, etc. The law started in 1970 so it's been around and it's to stop folks from building large second homes up on ridgelines. It's also a lengthy process any ski area has to go through before they even think of cutting a tree above 2500ft.

That would explain why 2200-2400ft is about the max you'll see development in VT.

[dendrite]

Isn't the Cole's Pond guy around 2300'?

[powderfreak]

I looked around some of the towns with the highest mean elevations in NE and I could only find roads going up to around 2000 feet. I'm sure there are a few hundred or so people living in NE at 2.5k but they're definitely bearded and have pony-o's.

Google Thatcher Road, Bolton, VT...that's the highest I know of in this area of the Greens. There are quite a few folks that live up there and you can almost always find some condo or aptment rentals on craigslist up there. Only 20 min from BTV with 3-4 times the snowfall literally on the spine's west slope. I knew some UVM grad students who lived there and now I work with several folks that live up there.

[powderfreak]

Isn't the Cole's Pond guy around 2300'?

Yep...again just under 2500ft. I really think Act 250 makes it very difficult if not impossible to put a residential home above 2500ft.

[mreaves]

I really don't know of anywhere that folks are above 2500ft. Even ski resort condos. Stowe's highest homes are only around 1800ft or so near Mansfield, and around 2000ft on the east side of town on the Worecester Range.

Bolton Valley has a community up between 2000-2400ft...but nothing higher. I have several friends that own condos up there...and 2200ft is waaaay up there to live, brutal in winter but 250"+ on the west slope there. I've seen 6 feet on the ground in a friends yard.

You also have to know in Vermont there is Act 250 which is specifically aimed at (not) developing land above 2500ft. It makes it almost impossible to build up at that height due to the amount of environmental impact studies, permits, etc. The law started in 1970 so it's been around and it's to stop folks from building large second homes up on ridgelines. It's also a lengthy process any ski area has to go through before they even think of cutting a tree above 2500ft.

That would explain why 2200-2400ft is about the max you'll see development in VT.

Act 250 has rules to prevent development above 2500' but isn't specifically aimed at stopping that. Act 250 applies to any development over 10 acres or any development over 1 acre in towns without zoning and development regulations It was created in response to rapid development that was begining to occurr in the late 60's. A few years ago there was a person down in Dover (Mt. Snow) who built a house above 2500' either in defiance of Act 250 or without bothering to go through the permitting process. IIRC after a protracted court battle, the house was ordered to be torn down.

Isn't the Cole's Pond guy around 2300'?

I think he is at 2200'.

[powderfreak]

Act 250 has rules to prevent development above 2500' but isn't specifically aimed at stopping that. Act 250 applies to any development over 10 acres or any development over 1 acre in towns without zoning and development regulations It was created in response to rapid development that was begining to occurr in the late 60's. A few years ago there was a person down in Dover (Mt. Snow) who built a house above 2500' either in defiance of Act 250 or without bothering to go through the permitting process. IIRC after a protracted court battle, the house was ordered to be torn down.

Aha. But eitherway, it's much easier and less hassle to just build below 2500ft than above it.

[N. OF PIKE]

Agree fully... over the time of a climate period, having a mound of dirt 200 feet higher than you within 1/4 mile isn't going to make a difference one way or another, nor will that 200ft higher hill really average all that much more. Maybe an inch? 1/5" per storm?

Elevation should add a few inches per year but I'd think its gotta be a 500ft+ difference in elevation to make a real noticeable difference of more than an inch or two per year. But I may be biased in a way that I don't see that much difference in snowfall based on elevation around here, but more proximity to a large orographic barrier.

I really don't see much of a difference here between 700ft and 1,200ft if that 1,200ft elevation point is away from the Spine. There are spots at 800-900ft that get a lot more snow in this area, than places as high as 1,500ft out in NE VT. The VT precipitation map shows some of this, as the red dot in the yellow is the center of Stowe at 700ft leading up to the ski resort on the county border at 1,500ft. There are elevations at 900ft that are in the dark green shading before the elevation starts to go straight up.

But like, Will said above, this is the only way its possible to average way more than a location nearby at a similar elevation. 800ft on the east side of Stowe is not the same as 800ft on the west side of Stowe (such as in the Nebraska Valley where low elevation butts right up next to the geographic spine). This is the same reason why J.Spin lives in probably the snowiest 500ft elevation location in New England...in fact I'd just about guarantee it. Again, not talking snow retention or snowpack... just the raw number of flakes that stack up out of the sky during the course of a winter.

look at blue hill, mass 60 inches plus average. 600 and change elevation 6 miles from coast, while boston is 42 or so. i'd say the number is closer to 300 for more than an inch or two of snow in mass, but just guessing.

on a different note i applied for the snow reporter position in bolton valley lol .

[CoastalWx]

look at blue hill, mass 60 inches plus average. 600 and change elevation 6 miles from coast, while boston is 42 or so. i'd say the number is closer to 300 for more than an inch or two of snow in mass, but just guessing.

on a different note i applied for the snow reporter position in bolton valley lol .

In borderline situations where the air temp drops quickly with height. 100' even helps. These are most notable during the days in early winter with east winds and cold temps aloft. The near surface is relatively warm, but the temp drops very quickly with height.

[Flying MXZ]

Aha. But eitherway, it's much easier and less hassle to just build below 2500ft than above it.

This is in the Catskills, so not NNE but this place really stands out around here. The small red X is in the same location in both pics (around 2900'). Notice all the switchbacks to get up to the house. It is a seasonal place that I don't believe is accessable in the winter.

[ORH_wxman]

In borderline situations where the air temp drops quickly with height. 100' even helps. These are most notable during the days in early winter with east winds and cold temps aloft. The near surface is relatively warm, but the temp drops very quickly with height.

I've noticed away from the immediate coastline, the general rule of thumb is one inch per 100 feet of gain...assuming all other factors equal such as orographic orientation and latitude. Unfortunately, all other factors are rarely equal. Often, when you gain elevation, you can gain some ability to uplsope or lessen downslope factors...even if minor, they all add up in the end.

Near the coast there is a big gradient to begin with even with zero elevation change. Look at where Ray is at 110 feet compared to a place like BVY just east of him on the coast. If Blue hill was sitting out in Boston harbor like Logan airprot does, they would probably average like 50-52" per year is my guess. A bit more than the typical difference, but less than the current 17" difference.

[powderfreak]

look at blue hill, mass 60 inches plus average. 600 and change elevation 6 miles from coast, while boston is 42 or so. i'd say the number is closer to 300 for more than an inch or two of snow in mass, but just guessing.

on a different note i applied for the snow reporter position in bolton valley lol .

Sweet! Hope you get that...getting paid to ski, monitor weather across the mountains, and measure snow daily is a fun job. I'm not sure yet but we may be looking for a part time snow reporter too.

And yes after talking with Sultan yesterday who said the same thing, elevation probably matters a lot more near the coastal plain or marine influence areas where you can get borderline events all season long. I think down there within a certain distance of the coast you probably get a lot more events right near the freezing mark than interior spots, so at that point every 100ft helps.

[CoastalWx]

I've noticed away from the immediate coastline, the general rule of thumb is one inch per 100 feet of gain...assuming all other factors equal such as orographic orientation and latitude. Unfortunately, all other factors are rarely equal. Often, when you gain elevation, you can gain some ability to uplsope or lessen downslope factors...even if minor, they all add up in the end.

Near the coast there is a big gradient to begin with even with zero elevation change. Look at where Ray is at 110 feet compared to a place like BVY just east of him on the coast. If Blue hill was sitting out in Boston harbor like Logan airprot does, they would probably average like 50-52" per year is my guess. A bit more than the typical difference, but less than the current 17" difference.

Yeah so true. Even just a few miles from that marine influence makes all the difference. I've seen it locally here, but especially down in Marshfield on the easterly flow events. Screaming easterly flow at the beaches and catpaws, while inland where the boundary layer is ever so slightly cooler...probably due to a combo of being away from strong marine influence and cooler temps aloft to mix down a bit....it's a 32F snow. The energy required for melting and the associated temp drop mean nothing with 30kts of easterly flow wiping that effect out at the beach...but inland with lighter winds..it has at least a small effect. Every little bit helps though in borderline situations.