eekuasepinniW Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yeah that's a decent elevation in New England to at least keep away the lowest level warming events. Its really only 150ft (like a tall tree or two) away from where I'm sitting right now. It would be sick if there were some like 1,000-2,000ft hills immediately on the ocean. Just think of the orographics and snowfall...boom. I've sometimes wondered how much more snow the tops of the white pines across from me average. They sit on an acre of protected land and are enormous. I kind of want to hack the branches off the top and mount a weather station and webcam up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Mountain Laurel are very common around here. White birch, extremely rare (assuming you mean Paper or Yellow birch)...but we've got white barked "old field" birch and millions of sweet birch (which is closely related to yellow birch). I am referring to white paper birch, which I know do not grow naturally on Long Island as I lived there for most of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 PF you are not under marine influence though, down here, from experience now, going from 125 feet to 300 or from 300 to 790 is huge in very borderline events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 With respect to biodiversity I have noticed that here and in elevations between 750-1,300' in Northeastern Connecticut there are stands of White Birch and Mt Laurel that do not exist in any great amounts as one travels south. Where I grew up in NNJ, mountain laurel was quite common, especially on the glacier-scoured hilltops at 800-900', but also in some 600' valleys. White birch, however, was found only where it had been planted as an ornamental. Our "white birch" was actually gray birch. I have read that every 1,000' gain in altitude is the equivalent of moving 250 miles north climate wise, is this true? In my forest ecology class (dated - it was in 1974), the ratio offered was 400' elevation = 1 degree latitude, about 70 miles. That would make 175 miles per 1,000' elev. My less-than-scientific observations would produce a figure a bit lower than that. I also expect that ratio to work best in the mid latitudes. Google Earth puts my elevation at 397', right in our driveway. This newer product, using the 4-decimal lat-lon from G-E, puts it at 404' but also locates it across the road from the house, which spot just happens to be 6-8' higher than the driveway. Of course, the 7.5 minute quad has my place at about 385', close to the 380' contour and relatively far from the 400' line. (My 80 acre woodlot holds less than 40' of relief, though the hill just to the north climbs about 150' in 1/4 mile.) Given all the evidence, I'll go with the 397'. ORH's comment about holding snow is right on. My commute takes me over a hill at 800' or a bit higher. The aspect (E/NE) probably offers a bit of orographic advantage in synoptic snows, but the easily observable differences occur on events at marginal temps, and I'd guess there's 10" or less additional snowfall there compared to the 87" avg at my place. However, it typically holds snow 7-10 days later than at my snowstake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Given all the evidence, I'll go with the 397'. ORH's comment about holding snow is right on. My commute takes me over a hill at 800' or a bit higher. The aspect (E/NE) probably offers a bit of orographic advantage in synoptic snows, but the easily observable differences occur on events at marginal temps, and I'd guess there's 10" or less additional snowfall there compared to the 87" avg at my place. However, it typically holds snow 7-10 days later than at my snowstake. Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Maine Yeah I guess... I just looked at a topo-map and the amount of terrain over 1,000ft is very small. A few south of Bar Harbor and then Acadia has a few spots around or just above 1,500ft. Still impressive right on the ocean, but I was thinking more like a large plateau or a spine or something. It would be cool to take like the northern ORH county's general 1,000ft+ plateau and put it right on the ocean...as aside from a few hills that poke above that elevation. I guess if global warming continues and sea level rises, ORH might one day be ocean front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yeah I guess... I just looked at a topo-map and the amount of terrain over 1,000ft is very small. A few south of Bar Harbor and then Acadia has a few spots around or just above 1,500ft. Still impressive right on the ocean, but I was thinking more like a large plateau or a spine or something. It would be cool to take like the northern ORH county's general 1,000ft+ plateau and put it right on the ocean...as aside from a few hills that poke above that elevation. I guess if global warming continues and sea level rises, ORH might one day be ocean front Acadia is just fantastic for oro enhanced on the Ocean almost 1,700 . I miss Cool Spruces pics and stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yeah I guess... I just looked at a topo-map and the amount of terrain over 1,000ft is very small. A few south of Bar Harbor and then Acadia has a few spots around or just above 1,500ft. Still impressive right on the ocean, but I was thinking more like a large plateau or a spine or something. It would be cool to take like the northern ORH county's general 1,000ft+ plateau and put it right on the ocean...as aside from a few hills that poke above that elevation. I guess if global warming continues and sea level rises, ORH might one day be ocean front Mt Cadillac is at 1,532' and the highest point on the American East Coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryslot Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Acadia is just fantastic for oro enhanced on the Ocean almost 1,700 . I miss Cool Spruces pics and stories. The views from Cadillac Mtn are simply awesome, Especially at sunrise, Its is the 1st place in the CONUS that the sun hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Where I grew up in NNJ, mountain laurel was quite common, especially on the glacier-scoured hilltops at 800-900', but also in some 600' valleys. White birch, however, was found only where it had been planted as an ornamental. Our "white birch" was actually gray birch. I have read that every 1,000' gain in altitude is the equivalent of moving 250 miles north climate wise, is this true? In my forest ecology class (dated - it was in 1974), the ratio offered was 400' elevation = 1 degree latitude, about 70 miles. That would make 175 miles per 1,000' elev. My less-than-scientific observations would produce a figure a bit lower than that. I also expect that ratio to work best in the mid latitudes. Google Earth puts my elevation at 397', right in our driveway. This newer product, using the 4-decimal lat-lon from G-E, puts it at 404' but also locates it across the road from the house, which spot just happens to be 6-8' higher than the driveway. Of course, the 7.5 minute quad has my place at about 385', close to the 380' contour and relatively far from the 400' line. (My 80 acre woodlot holds less than 40' of relief, though the hill just to the north climbs about 150' in 1/4 mile.) Given all the evidence, I'll go with the 397'. ORH's comment about holding snow is right on. My commute takes me over a hill at 800' or a bit higher. The aspect (E/NE) probably offers a bit of orographic advantage in synoptic snows, but the easily observable differences occur on events at marginal temps, and I'd guess there's 10" or less additional snowfall there compared to the 87" avg at my place. However, it typically holds snow 7-10 days later than at my snowstake. Our white paper birch are found here at the highest of elevations in Northeastern Connecticut. They are my favorite tree and stick out like a sore thumb amongst the stands of maple/oak. I feel lucky to have but one growing on my property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryslot Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Our white paper birch are found here at the highest of elevations in Northeastern Connecticut. They are my favorite tree and stick out like a sore thumb amongst the stands of maple/oak. I feel lucky to have but one growing on my property. Ice storm 98 put a hurting on the white birches around here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 PF you are not under marine influence though, down here, from experience now, going from 125 feet to 300 or from 300 to 790 is huge in very borderline events. Also true, and it would make sense that elevation becomes more important as one heads south into what are typically more borderline thermal profiles. The difference probably only gets greater as you head down into the mid-Atlantic, too. And I do know the differences you are talking about... the biggest event that stands out to me is when I lived in Richmond, VT... April 28, 2010 massive QPF upslope event. Late season event so very marginal temps being only a couple days from May 1st, but at 330ft I had only about 6". However, just up the road at 700-800ft they had a storm total of 24" by the time it was all done. 300ft at home... ~6" storm total (never got lower than 33F, notice the "lumpy" look to the ground cover cause by warmth): Just up the road at 800ft (in the same town, under 2 miles away, 31F and much more uniform fluffier snow falling): 500 vertical feet increased the snowfall 3-4 times... so I can see what you mean Ginx if you get more of these types of events. The 500ft is the difference between 33F and 31F during heavy snow. One's melting as it falls and the other is stacking up very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The coop in Stafford Springs was run by the town until 2002 (?) and they decided to withdrawl from the program at which point the current guy in Staffordville started being the coop. Prior to his starting, the Stafford Springs station only did temperatures and precip...they did not measure snow. The Staffordville guy lives right on the lake so I think he has some issues sometimes with blowing and drifting. If I was in town at the time I would have volunteered, but I was living 5 miles away in Somers at the time. The tool puts me at 667' and my seasonal average has been 57.4". I have the data to back that up and I've been measuring the same way for the past 27 seasons - when the snowfall ends, I measure. Staffordville averages 75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Our white paper birch are found here at the highest of elevations in Northeastern Connecticut. They are my favorite tree and stick out like a sore thumb amongst the stands of maple/oak. I feel lucky to have but one growing on my property. Theres a lot of them in my neighborhood. Almost all of them are bent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Based on Tamarck's post my climate is similar to Jaffrey, NH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Theres a lot of them in my neighborhood. Almost all of them are bent Same thing here with a group of about 10 of them in the corner on the enterance to our community. They are in this condition from last October's snowstorm. My birch escaped this fate being deep in the forest and bare at the time of the snowstorm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 View from the summit of Camden Snow Bowl Ski Area of the Maine Coast/Atlantic Ocean from 1,000' in elevation: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The coop in Stafford Springs was run by the town until 2002 (?) and they decided to withdrawl from the program at which point the current guy in Staffordville started being the coop. Prior to his starting, the Stafford Springs station only did temperatures and precip...they did not measure snow. The Staffordville guy lives right on the lake so I think he has some issues sometimes with blowing and drifting. If I was in town at the time I would have volunteered, but I was living 5 miles away in Somers at the time. The tool puts me at 667' and my seasonal average has been 57.4". I have the data to back that up and I've been measuring the same way for the past 27 seasons - when the snowfall ends, I measure. Your average matches pretty well with East Brimfield at 680 feet. They are about an inch higher on their average...which might make sense given the slight latitude advantage...but overall that type of discrepancy is on the noise-level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Based on Tamarck's post my climate is similar to Jaffrey, NH If Jaffrey was at sea level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Also true, and it would make sense that elevation becomes more important as one heads south into what are typically more borderline thermal profiles. The difference probably only gets greater as you head down into the mid-Atlantic, too. And I do know the differences you are talking about... the biggest event that stands out to me is when I lived in Richmond, VT... April 28, 2010 massive QPF upslope event. Late season event so very marginal temps being only a couple days from May 1st, but at 330ft I had only about 6". However, just up the road at 700-800ft they had a storm total of 24" by the time it was all done. 300ft at home... ~6" storm total (never got lower than 33F, notice the "lumpy" look to the ground cover cause by warmth): Just up the road at 800ft (in the same town, under 2 miles away, 31F and much more uniform fluffier snow falling): 500 vertical feet increased the snowfall 3-4 times... so I can see what you mean Ginx if you get more of these types of events. The 500ft is the difference between 33F and 31F during heavy snow. One's melting as it falls and the other is stacking up very quickly. NICE! biggest dif I ever saw was April 97, withing 3/4 mile and 300 feet, mixed slop at RT 91 in Hopkington RI, 22 inches at the top of Collins Rd. My CT hood biggest was in 2007, bottom of my hill at 330 feet sloppy inch, top 1 mile up the hill at 650 feet 10 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 NICE! biggest dif I ever saw was April 97, withing 3/4 mile and 300 feet, mixed slop at RT 91 in Hopkington RI, 22 inches at the top of Collins Rd. My CT hood biggest was in 2007, bottom of my hill at 330 feet sloppy inch, top 1 mile up the hill at 650 feet 10 inches. Yeah given what I saw in that late April 2010 event, I can believe it. Essentially you need a big QPF event with like 34F at sea level and 32F at like 700ft. Once you get below 32F the snowfall should become more uniform as you go up as the difference between 31F and 30F isn't going to matter as much as 32F and 33F. Then you'll see that big difference between like 200-300ft and 600-800ft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Torchey Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 16' seems a bit high actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If Jaffrey was at sea level. I view my climate/biodiversity as being similar to that of Brattleboro, V.T with my 835' elevation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Awesome stats, Will. I was really hoping you'd run those numbers... which is why I mentioned BTV. But is this years that ORH beat BTV? You say "and nearby" but what does that mean? ORH at 1,000ft is typically the snowiest station in SNE... how would BTV (in a big downsloping valley) compare to a spot like BDL (also in valley)? Plus BTV is one odd spot in terms of New England snowfall because what is favorable to BTV (literally the furthest NW you can get in New England) isn't going to be favorable for a good chunk of New England...likewise, what is favorable for SNE or ENE won't be for BTV. The climo there is closer to upstate NY's climo... so like when upstate NY (SYR/ALB/ART/MSS/SLK) do well, BTV will usually as well. Also BTV does get freakish occurrences like either really low snowfall from downslope or high snowfall from Champlain Valley convergence and orographic blocking. Like 2009-2010 was low everywhere in New England, but BTV was above normal by 12" from the freak 37-inch meso-scale event January 1-3, 2010. BTV was the best non-upslope station I had there so I used it. "Nearby" for ORH meant other places like Ashburnham or Princeton....we could even use Ray's area too...he usually is not that far off from my snowfall...averaging a bit less, but he does beat my area on occasion. BDL would rarely beat a NNE location, though it does happen. Probably like once every 25-30 years though. I looked at Montpeliar's snow data...they aren't an upslope spot (excpet maybe some rotting stuff like Pete's area in the Berks might get). Their snow data shuts off though after 1996. But prior to that from about 1950-1996, I came up with these seasons for ORH finishing with more snow than MPV: 1986-1987 1982-1983 1966-1967 1964-1965 1960-1961 1956-1957 So about 6 out of 45 years which is about once per 7-8 years. Montpelier was a tough place to get more snow than because their average was 96.4"...that is a very high average snowfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Same thing here with a group of about 10 of them in the corner on the enterance to our community. They are in this condition from last October's snowstorm. My birch escaped this fate being deep in the forest and bare at the time of the snowstorm. we have a stand of landscape paper birches in front of the Musem, love them, this is an old pic, they are getting huge now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Miser Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 we have a stand of landscape paper birches in front of the Musem, love them, this is an old pic, they are getting huge now There's the tower I was going to jump off of This past January. Thanks for the reminder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarloaf1989 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I have only one 20ish year old White Birch on my property and it's surrounded by Red and Sugar Maples: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I am referring to white paper birch, which I know do not grow naturally on Long Island as I lived there for most of my life. Betula Papyrifera is a rare "relict" tree on LI. There are reliable records of native trees existing at various places on the island including Mill Neck, Coram, Wading River, Wyandanch, Greenport and Noyack. The last three were from a 1972 survey, so don't ask me if they still exist. They are very rare and I personally have not seen one on my hikes, but they do grow here naturally, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yeah given what I saw in that late April 2010 event, I can believe it. Essentially you need a big QPF event with like 34F at sea level and 32F at like 700ft. Once you get below 32F the snowfall should become more uniform as you go up as the difference between 31F and 30F isn't going to matter as much as 32F and 33F. Then you'll see that big difference between like 200-300ft and 600-800ft. I saw almost 12" of paste in Feb 2010 while down at 400-500 feet saw 4-5" of total slop. They were right down the road....so it definitely does happen. However, those types of events of that magnitude only happen once every 5+ years or so. The last big paste bomb before that was probably January 2-3, 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthShoreWx Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 we have a stand of landscape paper birches in front of the Musem, love them, this is an old pic, they are getting huge now Those look like the Euro-trash birches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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