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Talking October 2012, its never too early


Rainshadow

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CFS2 weekly outlooks are cooler than normal until the last week of October; NAEFS week two is kind of in equal chances land.

I wouldn't bet on any significant above normal periods until the end of the month. Looks at-to-below normal through at least the 20th to me.

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Actually a comparsion on the snowcover to some past seasons is not that far from normal in my view. A little below on our side of the globe and normal in Siberia. Still have most of the month to go.

Totally agree and Siberia may be the more important of the two.

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Why are there so many negative departures then? At first glance, the snow cover map looks great:

post-1389-0-88175100-1350064704_thumb.pn

But then it seems like we are well below normal where we need it. Am I missing something?

post-1389-0-46334500-1350064715_thumb.pn

Last October on this date we were awful. It did pick up at the end of the month, we nearly got there. I think that was what Adam was looking at more of a julian date look than monthly snap shot. It is kind of volatile with snow cover, you can make up lost ground rather quickly in a day or two.

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It is very for philly to come in with normal temps for the month, let alone below normal... I don't think we could remember the last time that happened! Look at yesterday most of the suburbs and even northeast philly airport were at or below freezing, philly international airport was'nt even close.

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It is very for philly to come in with normal temps for the month, let alone below normal... I don't think we could remember the last time that happened! Look at yesterday most of the suburbs and even northeast philly airport were at or below freezing, philly international airport was'nt even close.

Yeah, but that's essentially part of the "normals" now. Here are the daily normal lows right now:

PHL 49

ILG 47

ACY 46

TTN 44

RDG 44

ABE 42

MPO 39

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1 important note october since 2000 has been about 1 degree above the 1981-2010 norms and with the way philly has been above normal just about every month (when was the last time we've seen a below normal month) I think it offers little value as far as winter is concerned. Just look at 2010 october was almost 2 degrees above normal and look at how cold december and january 2011 were. In my opinion snow cover to our north and also in siberia is much more important. After all we had our first freeze (most of us) so you can expect indian summer temps and we would want it to be warmer now than after thanksgiving!

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1 important note october since 2000 has been about 1 degree above the 1981-2010 norms and with the way philly has been above normal just about every month (when was the last time we've seen a below normal month) I think it offers little value as far as winter is concerned. Just look at 2010 october was almost 2 degrees above normal and look at how cold december and january 2011 were. In my opinion snow cover to our north and also in siberia is much more important. After all we had our first freeze (most of us) so you can expect indian summer temps and we would want it to be warmer now than after thanksgiving!

Since 2000 there have been six Octobers that have been below the current normal ( 5 below the long term median) and five above.

Using a small sample size and the fact that 2007 was the warmest October on record skews what is stated above as occurring.

My colleague who double majored in statistics uses October minimum temperatures as one of his predictors for his outlook. If October did not work, it would not be used. I would have never started posting this years ago.

Yeah October 2010 failed because of a strongly negative nao that winter.

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Since 2000 there have been six Octobers that have been below the current normal ( 5 below the long term median) and five above.

Using a small sample size and the fact that 2007 was the warmest October on record skews what is stated above as occurring.

My colleague who double majored in statistics uses October minimum temperatures as one of his predictors for his outlook. If October did not work, it would not be used. I would have never started posting this years ago.

Yeah October 2010 failed because of a strongly negative nao that winter.

My main point is that philly has been mostly above normal over the last 2 or more years so that is why I feel that is may not mean as much as before. Another note is that west chester and chester county areas are running about 4 or more degrees cooler than philly which I know has not always been the case.

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My main point is that philly has been mostly above normal over the last 2 or more years so that is why I feel that is may not mean as much as before. Another note is that west chester and chester county areas are running about 4 or more degrees cooler than philly which I know has not always been the case.

October has been the least affected month by warming than any other. October temperatures (by thirds) and ensuing winter departure (above/below) has a success rate of around 70%. The question is how to identify points of failure and is there any commonality to them. Before Jack passed away, he found that the Newfoundland pool accounted for I think somewhere around 33% of those failures. We never looked at Siberian (Eurasian) snow cover. Last three winters have proven that if the nao is not lingering within 1 sd, you better be on the same side as it on the outlook or else you are in trouble. This winter we may be in outlook conflict (Newfoundland pool vs Siberian snow cover), so we will see who wins.

I'm sorry, your posts reduce the sample size to the point it becomes statistically meaningless, its the equivalent of using CC Sabathia's last start as the basis for next season's contract.

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October has been the least affected month by warming than any other. October temperatures (by thirds) and ensuing winter departure (above/below) has a success rate of around 70%. The question is how to identify points of failure and is there any commonality to them. Before Jack passed away, he found that the Newfoundland pool accounted for I think somewhere around 33% of those failures. We never looked at Siberian (Eurasian) snow cover. Last three winters have proven that if the nao is not lingering within 1 sd, you better be on the same side as it on the outlook or else you are in trouble. This winter we may be in outlook conflict (Newfoundland pool vs Siberian snow cover), so we will see who wins.

I'm sorry, your posts reduce the sample size to the point it becomes statistically meaningless, its the equivalent of using CC Sabathia's last start as the basis for next season's contract.

My posts usually do include only recent trends I do realize that but I like many others hope that the warm trend stops (It is one of the longest that is consistently above normal) and that the yankees and phillies both do better next year!

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My posts usually do include only recent trends I do realize that but I like many others hope that the warm trend stops (It is one of the longest that is consistently above normal) and that the yankees and phillies both do better next year!

Also as I was saying october is only following recent trends if it is only around 1 or so above normal and snow cover is above normal that those 2 factors will bode well for snow and near average temps and please notice on the local nws site that west chester is around 4 or more degrees cooler than philly consistently this year.

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My posts usually do include only recent trends I do realize that but I like many others hope that the warm trend stops (It is one of the longest that is consistently above normal) and that the yankees and phillies both do better next year!

Persistence has its place and I'm pretty sure its a factor that is also considered by CPC, but WFO PHI's methodology/study with winter outlooks is at the other end of the spectrum. As for the Yanks and Phillies, as long as the Phillies are healthier, they should make the playoffs. The Yankees problems have started once they reach the playoffs and I'm not as optimistic about that next year if they have practically the same team. IDK about West Chester, our co-op program is currently two people short.

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