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December 18-20 Talking Points - Part 2


am19psu

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Looking at the major features on the H5 map for the time period in question, there's definitely room for more ridging along the SE US coast. East of the Rockies the map looks excellent, but the unfavorable Pacific could potentially ruin it.

Note the 00z NAM valid 12z Sunday morning. We've got a beautiful wwd retrograding -NAO, 50-50 low east of Newfound, and the Polar Vortex also moving westward SW of Hudson's Bay throughout the SUN-MON period. This orientation is actually very good for east coast snows; usually if you see the PV sitting SE of Hudson's Bay it's game over for anything north of the Carolinas as its suppression city. However, the positioning depicted here is supportive a more negative tilt w/ the short wave. In addition, the 50-50 low to our NE argues for a bit more height rise along the EC. Will it be enough? I can't answer that question right now, but I certainly wouldn't write off an event this early. Look at tomorrow's system - the past few days we were lucky to see a model run bring snow north of NC, but now I wouldn't be surprised to see a period of light to moderate snow as far north as central NJ tomorrow night. The north trend did happen with tomorrow's wave, we just won't see the effects b/c it was so far south to begin with. Usually my recollection of Nina events plus climo should mean the SE ridge gets a bit stronger as we approach the event. The 12/19/10 event was progged SE until 48 hrs out, and we're double that amount of time right now (Day 4-4.5). But with that said there were notable differences w/ the dec event last year that may screw us this time around.

As you'll see in the following maps, the H5 orientation looks conducive for the Atlantic/arctic, but the ridge out west is rather weak/flat and doesnt help our situation much. I can see this being a near miss out to sea but I also wouldn't be surprised to see modelling return to projections from a couple days ago. Bottom line it's too early to make a definitive call. I'm on the fence with this one; the features aren't all that bad (actually very good save for the lack of western ridging). Give it a bit more time.

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Great writeup Isotherm. Looks like that low over Alaska is what's really screwing us over since it seems to be squashing any ridging in the West. Will the favorable Atlantic be enough to overcome that? We'll just have to wait and see. I think it's still too early to throw in the towel just yet, but the trends recently have certainly been discouraging.

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Awesome writeup ISO. Top notch.

Great writeup Isotherm. Looks like that low over Alaska is what's really screwing us over since it seems to be squashing any ridging in the West. Will the favorable Atlantic be enough to overcome that? We'll just have to wait and see. I think it's still too early to throw in the towel just yet.

Thanks guys, let's hope we some some favorable trending over the next few days. Even if tonight's runs aren't too encouraging, I still wouldn't write it off. Too many favorable features on the playing field to let this go until Friday's runs IMO.

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The GFS and Nam aren't making too much of the southern stream energy tonight. I'll still wait until all the features are properly initialized, but if by tomorrow night's 0z runs they're still very weak with the southern stream, I don't see much possibility for a storm. Believe it or not the northern stream and PV look to be very cooperative, but with no energy to spin something up, nothing really can. If this was last year with an uber-amped up subtropical jet, the models would probably all be unanimous in showing a HECS right now (another thing which is maybe best avoided 84-120 hrs out). In short, it's a coin toss until the features are initialized properly.

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I really feel we need to get a snowstorm shown on the euro inside 96 hrs........and what anyother model shows forget it........the euro pretty much reminded us how it is king...and no matter what computer score card you have, just burn it

The Euro should be the only model taken with consideration.. Its truly amazing how great that model is..

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I really feel we need to get a snowstorm shown on the euro inside 96 hrs........and what anyother model shows forget it........the euro pretty much reminded us how it is king...and no matter what computer score card you have, just burn it

Euro was the model that initially got us hooked on this threat. So if nothing pans out with this threat, I just hope people remember not to get excited about any model projection beyond 5 days.

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Euro was the model that initially got us hooked on this threat. So if nothing pans out with this threat, I just hope people remember not to get excited about any model projection beyond 5 days.

Tom it showed a hit once at 12z sunday...since then it has been ots on each and every run....it has varied up in sne with cape cod and boston...but pretty much has kept the same idea of no snow for i-95.....

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that clipper or whatever it holds potential, gfs has it which means nothing, gem has it, well 0z did, 12z sheared it out. Euro has it but it went south of us. The way i look at things as long as there is something to track, potential im happy. Granted i would love a hit, but imagine if this was just torch city and we had nothing. SO im happy we have things to track.

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The PV actually is in a very favorable position. Looks like it tries to split which would be more in line with the very favorable 12/14 12Z GFS and some of todays earlier runs of the NAM. Today however with virtually no S/W you dont have the energy to even spin up a storm until its well offshore. Give it until 00z tomorrow when the feature is over this continent and its properly initialized by all the models. I will say though, you can't be happy with the fact that as oppose to yesterday, things don't seem as though they are slowly working towards a better solution. :thumbsdown:

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that clipper or whatever it holds potential, gfs has it which means nothing, gem has it, well 0z did, 12z sheared it out. Euro has it but it went south of us. The way i look at things as long as there is something to track, potential im happy. Granted i would love a hit, but imagine if this was just torch city and we had nothing. SO im happy we have things to track.

the catch 22 is that you would want this weekend's wave to be as flat as possible, otherwise the PV will be too strong after phasing and crush any incoming shortwaves.

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that clipper or whatever it holds potential, gfs has it which means nothing, gem has it, well 0z did, 12z sheared it out. Euro has it but it went south of us. The way i look at things as long as there is something to track, potential im happy. Granted i would love a hit, but imagine if this was just torch city and we had nothing. SO im happy we have things to track.

funny..that's more of a Nina system..then this threat ever was..it's more believble

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the catch 22 is that you would want this weekend's wave to be as flat as possible, otherwise the PV will be too strong after phasing and crush any incoming shortwaves.

Yeah exactly right, if NYC/LI is not going to get hit by this weekend event we want it to be about as complete of a miss and non-phase as possible to allow the next storm system to come more north....of course its always possible the system could wash out as it comes east and re-develop offshore too late....in that scenario we would want the first storm to be significant so that wave is forced south and reforms off NC instead of NJ.

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I've been talking about the lack of an amplified ridge out west for days. It really is a big key, and one of the reasons why I've been saying a coastal storm is very unlikely for us. I want snow as much as everyone else, but I don't get my hopes up in a pattern like this. It requires great timing, which is a very slim chance.

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the catch 22 is that you would want this weekend's wave to be as flat as possible, otherwise the PV will be too strong after phasing and crush any incoming shortwaves.

yes which is why im rooting for it to be flat as anything. storm 1 does not look like its going to happy, so if its just going to miss or what not lets make it a weak wave so it can help out storm 2...all the gfs ens that were bullish were the ones that had an ots storm

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