Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Satellites have determined that urbanization, while definitely playing a role on the local climate, is not a major contributor to the global rise in temps. The same satellites have determined that even rural areas have seen increased temperatures. I really don't know enough about that stuff to be able to make a serious effort at refuting it...outside of the fact that global temperature increase must be aided and abetted by the urbanization as the temperatures in urban areas are certainly not omitted from the global statistical packet...or at least I would think not. An easy way to see this first hand with no tech help is by observing things like expanding growing seasons, later freezing and earlier thawing times of lakes and rivers and an expansion of species' ranges into new territories. Yep...I don't think temp rise is seriously in dispute here... have global temps inched upwards since the Little Ice Age ended midway through the 19th century? Sure they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthlight Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I stopped reading when someone said the word "communist" in this thread. Please stay reasonable in the banter thread and lets not get into political BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I stopped reading when someone said the word "communist" in this thread. Please stay reasonable in the banter thread and lets not get into political BS. But somehow the word "abortion"...posted several hours earlier...failed to derail you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I really don't know enough about that stuff to be able to make a serious effort at refuting it...outside of the fact that global temperature increase must be aided and abetted by the urbanization as the temperatures in urban areas are certainly not omitted from the global statistical packet...or at least I would think not. Do you have statistics to support this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 How is Communist wrong when it's referring to China? If you would read the post, he said "Communist China". This is a known fact. He didn't say "Obama is a Communist". Reading is fundamental. Bottom line, keep it clean and no rabbit punches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Do you have statistics to support this? Well I did subscribe to the NCDC's Climatological Data for many years...each state was divided into different sections....NY would be (and still is) divided into "Coastal"..."Hudson Valley"..."Western Plateau"...etc....and I know that urban stations such as JFK...LGA...NYC...NY Ave V Brooklyn..had their temperatures factored into the "Coastal" zones average...which worked into the state average...and, I would naturally figure, the national average. Of course, all types of statistical gathering and sorting methods are used today with the advent of the computer...but it would seem unlikely that general temperature tracking would specifically discount urban data unless predesigned or programmed to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Bottom line, keep it clean and no rabbit punches. Did you work any of LaMotta's fights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well I did subscribe to the NCDC's Climatological Data for many years...each state was divided into different sections....NY would be (and still is) divided into "Coastal"..."Hudson Valley"..."Western Plateau"...etc....and I know that urban stations such as JFK...LGA...NYC...NY Ave V Brooklyn..had their temperatures factored into the "Coastal" zones average...which worked into the state average...and, I would naturally figure, the national average. Of course, all types of statistical gathering and sorting methods are used today with the advent of the computer...but it would seem unlikely that general temperature tracking would specifically discount urban data unless predesigned or programmed to do so... Putting aside national data, how much significance could this really have on world data, assuming all of the world's urban centers were included. Remember, this would have to be factored into temps. for the entire world, oceans and vast areas of empty spaces on land included? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Putting aside national data, how much significance could this really have on world data, assuming all of the world's urban centers were included. Remember, this would have to be factored into temps. for the entire world, oceans and vast areas of empty spaces on land included? Another thing to remember, is it's really unfair to say that rural locations have/have not changed, because there are a lot more rural stations now than there were years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Putting aside national data, how much significance could this really have on world data, assuming all of the world's urban centers were included. Remember, this would have to be factored into temps. for the entire world, oceans and vast areas of empty spaces on land included? Well we are getting into an area where it would be hard to say....are we just omitting NY, London and Tokyo size metropolises...or Kansas City, Saskatoon, and Pretoria? I'm sure those secondary cites are a good deal warmer than the open countryside...as are tertiary locales such as Dobbs Ferry, Islip, and Suffern? There are many factors to take into account.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Absolutely not. But the tertiary locales? Its a pretty fair question...Upton recorded a -23 F back in 1961....when mostly potato farmers roamed the area and a good bit before the L.I.E. went through...they haven't come close to that # since... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well we are getting into an area where it would be hard to say....are we just omitting NY, London and Tokyo size metropolises...or Kansas City, Saskatoon, and Pretoria? I'm sure those secondary cites are a good deal warmer than the open countryside...as are tertiary locales such as Dobbs Ferry, Islip, and Suffern? There are many factors to take into account.... Personally, I think the suburban locations are most accurate to use if you want to determine how urbanization has effected the climate change. Locations that are currently very rural were very rural years ago. Huge cities like NY, London, and Tokyo, were very large 100 years ago. The areas that have become MORE urban are locations like Islip, which you mentioned, maybe a Teterboro, and maybe a place like Poughkeepsie or Newburgh, which are seeing expanding urbanization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Its a pretty fair question...Upton recorded a -23 F back in 1961....when mostly potato farmers roamed the area and a good bit before the L.I.E. went through...they haven't come close to that # since... Exactly my point, as to why a location like that would be MORE important than the others for a study like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Do you expect anything different from Rush? The thing with Rush is, that's his job. He's made LOTS of money in his life bashing Democrats and Liberals, probably more money than you or I will ever see. But a politician, like Obama, attacking him, is just stupid. Rush is a talk show host- an entertainer, not a politician. I know that. But listening to the extent of Rush's rhetoric, you would think it was personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Exactly my point, as to why a location like that would be MORE important than the others for a study like this. Greg...if you know where this discussion is headed...you are a step ahead of me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Exactly my point, as to why a location like that would be MORE important than the others for a study like this. But Upton still radiates pretty effectively, and eastern LI hasn't really become much more populated than it was 40 years ago. Population stats will confirm this. And the degree of suburbanization relative to the entire area of the globe is de minimus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 But Upton still radiates pretty effectively, and eastern LI hasn't really become much more populated than it was 40 years ago. Population stats will confirm this. Have to disagree there...much, much more built up since 1972. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 But Upton still radiates pretty effectively, and eastern LI hasn't really become much more populated than it was 40 years ago. Population stats will confirm this. And the degree of suburbanization relative to the entire area of the globe is de minimus. Years ago, anwywhere east of the Nassau/Suffolk line (with the exception of maybe Islip, Brentwood, and Riverhead), was basically all farmland. Now, it's basically urban all the way out on the LIE to Riverhead. You have to get East of there to really get into farmland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 And the degree of suburbanization relative to the entire area of the globe is de minimus. Might be but for the purposes of compiling a summary from all the weather stations on the planet...one is far more likely to find a weather station in Bedford Hills than some isolated spot in the Gobi Desert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Now, it's basically urban all the way out on the LIE to Riverhead. You have to get East of there to really get into farmland. Not quite urban but certainly suburban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Not quite urban but certainly suburban. Right, my point was that it ain't the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 But Upton still radiates pretty effectively, and eastern LI hasn't really become much more populated than it was 40 years ago. Population stats will confirm this. And the degree of suburbanization relative to the entire area of the globe is de minimus. Town of Brookhaven had 245,000 people in 1970 and 486,000 people in 2010...roughly doubling in size. http://en.wikipedia....haven,_New_York Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Check out historicaerials.com. Places almost as far east as the Sagtikos look almost the same as far back as 1953, especially the south shore. The northern half of the island/shore has been mostly preserved from sprawling strip malls and cookie cutter suburban housing. If you drive through northern Nassau right now you'd think you were 100 miles from NYC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Might be but for the purposes of compiling a summary from all the weather stations on the planet...one is far more likely to find a weather station in Bedford Hills than some isolated spot in the Gobi Desert... The problem with your argument is that it's contradicted by the voluminous statistics from obs. site around the world whose environments over the past 30 years have remained unchanged, whether urban or rural, confirmation of temp. rises by satellites, increases in sea level, ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica, shrinking ice sheets, declining arctic sea ice, warming oceans, glacial retreats and the acidification of the oceans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Check out historicaerials.com. Places almost as far east as the Sagtikos look almost the same as far back as 1953, especially the south shore. The northern half of the island/shore has been mostly preserved from sprawling strip malls and cookie cutter suburban housing. If you drive through northern Nassau right now you'd think you were 100 miles from NYC. Well a big thing is the zoning...much or northern Nassau County is two or four acre zoning...so there are no "Levittowns" around there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Check out historicaerials.com. Places almost as far east as the Sagtikos look almost the same as far back as 1953, especially the south shore. The northern half of the island/shore has been mostly preserved from sprawling strip malls and cookie cutter suburban housing. If you drive through northern Nassau right now you'd think you were 100 miles from NYC. But "Northern Nassau" is a tiny area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 But "Northern Nassau" is a tiny area. About 1/3 of Nassau County? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analog96 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 About 1/3 of Nassau County? Which is small to begin with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 But "Northern Nassau" is a tiny area. Sure but my point is is that years ago it was pretty much the same up until about exit 50, even almost 60 years ago. A lot of the south shore communities were already built and the north shore is still very similar to what it was back then. In other words no big changes have happened to a large part of the island, at least when compared to 50 years ago. Before that is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pamela Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The problem with your argument is that it's contradicted by the voluminous statistics from obs. site around the world whose environments over the past 30 years have remained unchanged, whether urban or rural, confirmation of temp. rises by satellites, increases in sea level, ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica, shrinking ice sheets, declining arctic sea ice, warming oceans, glacial retreats and the acidification of the oceans. I don't think I ever argued temps have been static; but that's besides the point. The problem with the AGW advocate is that he is, in truth, a living paradox. Although he puts forth a wonderfully progressive worldview...he is, at heart, a closet reactionary...absolutely terrified at the prospect of the slightest change in his environment. This inherent contradiction is based on the false notion that he himself is the very center of the universe and that absolutely nothing can take place without his consent. It is a notion rooted in arrogance because it fails to grant proper deference and respect to things that are much more powerful than him, i.e. Nature, which will likewise be here long after he is gone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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