The 2012/13 Ski Season Thread

[Sugarloaf1989]

I'm not sure how into ski history you are, but a ton of mom and pop ski areas opened up in the late 1950s and 1960s...they were quite successful largely in part due to the prolific winters we kept having. A lot of those places didn't make snow.

The nasty patch of winters starting in '78-'79 and continuing right into the 1980s put a big strain on them and many went out of business. Now it wasn't all weather related...a lot of highway construction was implemented which made it easier to get to larger resorts up north...however, the weather definitely did influence it to a significant degree. I've read on how several of them didn't think it was worth it anymore when they got 2 or 3 bad winters in a row....a feat which was unheard of for the previous 15 years.

The high cost of insurance killed off alot of the smaller places long before any climate change got in the way.

[ORH_wxman]

The high cost of insurance killed off alot of the smaller places long before any climate change got in the way.

Well really tiny places probably so...but several small/medium sized places struggled because of the bad stretch of winters. At least that is what many of them have said.

It isn't 100% shocking though...the period from the late 1950s to the 1970s is umatched in our recorded history of snowfall in the region...so few bad winters in there. Definitely not the norm before that period nor since then.

As mentioned though, and you brought up another variable, the wetaher wasn't the only reason. The easier access to better ski resorts was a factor as well. But having seen them write about the bad snow hurting business and deciding to close up shop certainly points to weather being a partial factor.

[powderfreak]

Well really tiny places probably so...but several small/medium sized places struggled because of the bad stretch of winters. At least that is what many of them have said.

It isn't 100% shocking though...the period from the late 1950s to the 1970s is umatched in our recorded history of snowfall in the region...so few bad winters in there. Definitely not the norm before that period nor since then.

I've been reading a book called A Story of Mountains and Men, and it is about the history of Killington ski resort... it has pictures of the area before any trails were build, survey details, and all the work that went into the first season followed by how it became the resort it is today. There's a big theme of how crappy the winters got starting around 1980, that Killington developed its own snowmaking R&D department around that time. Luckily they had the money to create one of the largest snowmaking infrastructures in North America, but the book also gives examples of the mom and pop places that couldn't compete (like you said).

To me the more eye opening things are the length of their season back before they even had a big snowmaking operation. They talk about winters back in the 60s where the place opened in October and closed in May, all on natural snow. That's crazy. When I see pictures of people skiing in mid May 40-50 years ago, that catches my attention because you know they aren't doing it because they blew a 20 foot snow base on 1 trail to stay open...its au natural.

[powderfreak]

I just skimmed through the book to find some examples, and in 1965-1966 winter (7th year of operation I think) the place ran from November 18 to May 18 on natural snow. That's impressive. In 67-68 they opened on November 6th naturally. That's like Mad River Glen with no snowmaking having a season length that these days seems only possible with massive snowmaking; I can't imagine what a winter would be like where MRG operates from mid Nov to mid May. Recently they haven't been opening till like Christmas and closing before April.

[Sugarloaf1989]

It isn't 100% shocking though...the period from the late 1950s to the 1970s is umatched in our recorded history of snowfall in the region...so few bad winters in there. Definitely not the norm before that period nor since then.

Looking back throught my books on Okemo and Killington I can see a few bad winters mixed into that time period. I am by no means a weather expert such as yourself, but the 1960's did have a period of drought and low snowfall in New England 1963-1964,1964-1965 both had light snowfall The 1966-1967 season was erratic with good early season conditions but a very poor spring.. The October 1973 energy crisis and lack of snow hurt New England skiing for the 1973-1974 season.

Factors that killed off many of the small areas are urban sprawl, the value of land in certain areas being of higher value when used for developement vs skiing, climate change, rediculous insurance rates, competition

and lack or inability to afford updated lifts,snowmaking and grooming.

[uncle W]

Looking back throught my books on Okemo and Killington I can see a few bad winters mixed into that time period. I am by no means a weather expert such as yourself, but the 1960's did have a period of drought and low snowfall in New England 1963-1964,1964-1965 both had light snowfall The 1966-1967 season was erratic with good early season conditions but a very poor spring.. The October 1973 energy crisis and lack of snow hurt New England skiing for the 1973-1974 season.

Factors that killed off many of the small areas are urban sprawl, the value of land in certain areas being of higher value when used for developement vs skiing, climate change, rediculous insurance rates, competition

and lack or inability to afford updated lifts,snowmaking and grooming.

the Spring of 1967 was one of the coldest on record with late season snowfalls...I'm surprised it was so bad up there...

[Sugarloaf1989]

the Spring of 1967 was one of the coldest on record with late season snowfalls...I'm surprised it was so bad up there...

My Killington book shows 1966-1967 as being good for an early season opening on November 4th, poor snow through Christmas, good in January-March and poor in April-May with an 18" dump in late May.

[Sugarloaf1989]

I've been reading a book called A Story of Mountains and Men, and it is about the history of Killington ski resort... it has pictures of the area before any trails were build, survey details, and all the work that went into the first season followed by how it became the resort it is today. There's a big theme of how crappy the winters got starting around 1980, that Killington developed its own snowmaking R&D department around that time. Luckily they had the money to create one of the largest snowmaking infrastructures in North America, but the book also gives examples of the mom and pop places that couldn't compete (like you said).

To me the more eye opening things are the length of their season back before they even had a big snowmaking operation. They talk about winters back in the 60s where the place opened in October and closed in May, all on natural snow. That's crazy. When I see pictures of people skiing in mid May 40-50 years ago, that catches my attention because you know they aren't doing it because they blew a 20 foot snow base on 1 trail to stay open...its au natural.

Ah the good old days of cheap energy and carefree snowmaking at Killington:

[NECT]

Ah the good old days of cheap energy and carefree snowmaking at Killington:

Shouldn't you be posting from the Sugarloaf book?

We're now a lot more aware of daily conditions. When I was a kid, you could find the occasional ski report in the paper, or you could call the ski area. If they were open early and closed late, it was a long year, but there's no record of what happened in between.

Now, we can check the number of trails opened and get live cam shots all day, all season.

[Sugarloaf1989]

Shouldn't you be posting from the Sugarloaf book?

We're now a lot more aware of daily conditions. When I was a kid, you could find the occasional ski report in the paper, or you could call the ski area. If they were open early and closed late, it was a long year, but there's no record of what happened in between.

Now, we can check the number of trails opened and get live cam shots all day, all season.

I love Sugarloaf, but it's very far away, so Killington and the mountains of Vermont are what's more familar to me and where I have done alot of skiing.

or you could call the ski area - ah yes, the taped lie,.............. I mean ski report

[NECT]

I love Sugarloaf, but it's very far away, so Killington and the mountains of Vermont are what's more familar to me and where I have done alot of skiing.

or you could call the ski area - ah yes, the taped lie,.............. I mean ski report

The Loaf is a haul from these parts.

Kmart and so many other areas are just so freaking expensive. Hoping to hit Berkshire East a few times. They have some great deals, and it's pretty much less expensive and a lot better than Wawa. Much smaller crowds, better terrain, and only about 30 minutes farther away.

[ORH_wxman]

Looking back throught my books on Okemo and Killington I can see a few bad winters mixed into that time period. I am by no means a weather expert such as yourself, but the 1960's did have a period of drought and low snowfall in New England 1963-1964,1964-1965 both had light snowfall The 1966-1967 season was erratic with good early season conditions but a very poor spring.. The October 1973 energy crisis and lack of snow hurt New England skiing for the 1973-1974 season.

Factors that killed off many of the small areas are urban sprawl, the value of land in certain areas being of higher value when used for developement vs skiing, climate change, rediculous insurance rates, competition

and lack or inability to afford updated lifts,snowmaking and grooming.

NNE had some uglier dry years mixed in, but for the ski resorts of MA it was pretty much smooth sailing...ORH had 21 out of 23 winters with at or above average snow from 1955-1956 through 1977-1978. That period hasn't been equaled anywhere in the records we have down here. The late '20s through early '40s were absolutely putrid along with the early '50s. 1900s and 1910s were solid, but not as good as the '60s...we'd probably have to go back to the late 1880s and 1890s to get a similar period, but the records in BOS don't start until 1890 for snow and for ORH its later than that....but based on some other obs around, those were probably good decades.

[Skivt2]

Bump

[Sugarloaf1989]

NNE had some uglier dry years mixed in, but for the ski resorts of MA it was pretty much smooth sailing...ORH had 21 out of 23 winters with at or above average snow from 1955-1956 through 1977-1978. That period hasn't been equaled anywhere in the records we have down here. The late '20s through early '40s were absolutely putrid along with the early '50s. 1900s and 1910s were solid, but not as good as the '60s...we'd probably have to go back to the late 1880s and 1890s to get a similar period, but the records in BOS don't start until 1890 for snow and for ORH its later than that....but based on some other obs around, those were probably good decades.

From a skiers standpoint 1995-1996 was awesome and I was still living in NYC with my parents and the local skiing was incredible from start to finish and it was cool to see NYC break it's snowfall record. I recall waist deep powder in March at Bobcat and Ski Plattekill. The 2000-2001 season was also one for record snowfall and a long season. The tail end of 2006-2007 was good with a massive late season series of storms for Western Maine and Northern New England with 100" of snow at Sugarloaf in about 10 days time.

It seems like the climate is changing and winters are getting shorter in New England. We always did a tightrop dance between rain/snow but winters seem to have more rain now than they did lets say 35 years + ago based on what I have read in ski area history books. I am not sure why that is or more importantly what the future holds.

As far as skiing in Europe goes, the glaciers that I skied on as a kid in the mid 1980's are vastly deteriorated in both size and summer snowcover and only one of the places that I skied at is still opened up 365 days a year at this point.

[Sugarloaf1989]

I am not sure if it's possible to find out the weather situation for a date back in time, but I recall freezing my @ss of at Killington while skiing on April 24th, 1993 with sunshine and temperatures starting out in the high 10's which is fairly hard to do in late April and only warming up slowly during the day. Snowshed was still sking edge to edge which is pretty amazing for late April:

[CT Rain]

From a skiers standpoint 1995-1996 was awesome and I was still living in NYC with my parents and the local skiing was incredible from start to finish and it was cool to see NYC break it's snowfall record. I recall waist deep powder in March at Bobcat and Ski Plattekill.

Yeah 95-96 was wild. Did a lot of skiing that year. I remember some awesome conditions in the Berkshires and also great conditions at Mt Snow the weekend before the big Jan 6-7 blizzard. I went up to VT expecting the storm to miss and came home to blizzard warnings.... one of my favorite wx memories.

I am not sure if it's possible to find out the weather situation for a date back in time, but I recall freezing my @ss of at Killington while skiing on April 24th, 1993 with sunshine and temperatures starting out in the high 10's which is fairly hard to do in late April and only warming up slowly during the day. Snowshed was still sking edge to edge which is pretty amazing for late April:

That's really impressive. You bet it's hard to freeze in April... that's impressive! I miss the days of Killington blowing snow like crazy to open way too early and close way too late lol.

[Professional Lurker]

I assume I'm like 205 right now. That is NOT a good skiing weight,

I think if Ginx and I can ski at that (or above), its all good...

[Sugarloaf1989]

In reference to my earlier Killington post and looking back to the April 22-24th time period in 1993, it seems that there was some kind of storm system as Rutland stayed in the 20's and 30's for high temperatures on the 22nd and 23rd of April according to Weather Underground which is amazing for late April. I also read that Malone, N.Y had a 22" dump of snow as well which was a record late season snowfall.

[powderfreak]

I love Sugarloaf, but it's very far away, so Killington and the mountains of Vermont are what's more familar to me and where I have done alot of skiing.

or you could call the ski area - ah yes, the taped lie,.............. I mean ski report

lol... it is marketing but I think you'll find my snow reports at Stowe can actually run on the conservative side. I've been called out under-reporting snow (conspiracy between some of our groomers who just want to ski pow without the crowds). I grew up listening/checking/reading snow reports all my life, so naturally I'm a little skeptical and ask any of the regulars, I have a tendency to low-ball snowfall amounts. The locals know the drill... if the snow report says 6" new, its time to go because it could be like a foot up top.

I won't report snow that I can't verify via snowstake... so we end up with days like January 30th last year. Its 5:30am and I have only 3" at 1,550ft snowstake... so that's how much new snow is on the report, 3" (and yes I have photos of most snow board readings to back up any questions later).

This is how much was up on the mountain... deepest 3" anyone's ever ridden. Turns out it was 7-9" on most of the mountain.

Don't assume every snow report is a lie But then again, I haven't heard of any other ski area actively using snow boards and stakes like the system I've got going at Stowe. Of course if the forecast is for rain, heavy at times, I may not necessarily point out that fact, but you'll never get inflated snowfall totals from here as long as I work up here. I love reading the internet ski forums that have things like, "Stowe's reporting 8-10" overnight, anyone have any beta?" "Yes, its true and actually under-reported." I've never understood why Jay Peak goes so aggressive sometimes (people call them out online all the time)...if you really do get a ton of snow, why do you need to inflate it? Its not like you're some 140-inch a year resort that has to keep up with the 300-inch spots further north...if you really do get a lot of snow, there's no reason to embellish. Just be confident in your snowfall and folks will figure it out.

[ORH_wxman]

If you're Jay peak, the thinking is "hey, if we average 300" per year, why not make it 400"?"

[dryslot]

lol... it is marketing but I think you'll find my snow reports at Stowe can actually run on the conservative side. I've been called out under-reporting snow (conspiracy between some of our groomers who just want to ski pow without the crowds). I grew up listening/checking/reading snow reports all my life, so naturally I'm a little skeptical and ask any of the regulars, I have a tendency to low-ball snowfall amounts. The locals know the drill... if the snow report says 6" new, its time to go because it could be like a foot up top.

I won't report snow that I can't verify via snowstake... so we end up with days like January 30th last year. Its 5:30am and I have only 3" at 1,550ft snowstake... so that's how much new snow is on the report, 3" (and yes I have photos of most snow board readings to back up any questions later).

This is how much was up on the mountain... deepest 3" anyone's ever ridden. Turns out it was 7-9" on most of the mountain.

Don't assume every snow report is a lie But then again, I haven't heard of any other ski area actively using snow boards and stakes like the system I've got going at Stowe. Of course if the forecast is for rain, heavy at times, I may not necessarily point out that fact, but you'll never get inflated snowfall totals from here as long as I work up here. I love reading the internet ski forums that have things like, "Stowe's reporting 8-10" overnight, anyone have any beta?" "Yes, its true and actually under-reported." I've never understood why Jay Peak goes so aggressive sometimes (people call them out online all the time)...if you really do get a ton of snow, why do you need to inflate it? Its not like you're some 140-inch a year resort that has to keep up with the 300-inch spots further north...if you really do get a lot of snow, there's no reason to embellish. Just be confident in your snowfall and folks will figure it out.

Maybe i will monitor your area and remind you when that happens in case you forget

[N. OF PIKE]

I'd take it and run... I mean they are talking departure from normal and not in terms of inches of snow. Of course its much easier for SNE and I-95 corridor on southward to get above normal snow (especially the mid-Atlantic) than it is up here... a few solid storms and that region is well on its way.

2 of the last 3 winters make up the worst and second worst winters at the ski area in the last 18 years in terms of total snowfall accumulations... given that, I'd absolutely love to lock in an average winter. 2009-2010 and 2011-2012 are both in the recent memory bank with snowfall ranging from 93" and 87" in town (respectively), with 246" and 214" at the summit, so if I'd be ecstatic with an average 125" in town and 320" at the summit.

powder why don't you use the ENTIRE winter totals, it would make a bit more sense to me since were talking annual snowfall (and i know it would only be a guesstimate, but c'mon you get crushed every year at the 3000' snowboard)

i mean didn't the snowboard "summit" get 245-250 last calendar year , not last operating year.

you guys get crushed regardless. 250 last year in a pitiful winter lol that breaks anybody's ALL TIME RECORD total in SNE by a factor of at least 1.5 usually 2. read that line again people, till it sinks in. uhh back to reality

if i were you i wouldn't even follow the winter conversation, i'd just look out the window and wait for it to snow 225+ inches, and it WILL . money in the bank at elevation in the northern most greens, money in the f'n bank

[powderfreak]

Maybe i will monitor your area and remind you when that happens in case you forget

haha... hey I don't like to embellish but I won't point out reasons why you shouldn't go skiing. Plus to me, I'll often point out skiing in the rain/warm thaw day is going to be much more enjoyable due to the soft snow, than the day after when we have NW winds 50mph and the snowpack is frozen rock hard. That day is worse to me than the soft snow from thawing day when its comfortable outside instead of pond ice conditions and freezing to death.

I know people hate it but its still a business. I read a lot of snow reports and most places never outright lie (like saying its snowing when its raining)... you gotta read between the lines though. We are still offering a product and folks looking for a report that says either, "you should ski today" or "no you shouldn't ski today" isn't going to happen. Sometimes the product isn't as good as other times, but if we say it sucks, why would we even open for the day?

Its like a restaurant and asking the Chef if you should come to eat dinner there tonight... is he going to tell you, "well most of the food is close to expiring and our refrigerator broke yesterday so a lot of our food is questionable?" No, he'll stick to the positives and say "the lamb came in fresh today and tastes awesome". I can always find a positive reason to be out on the mountain, there's always at least a few trails that are skiing really nicely no matter what the conditions.

[powderfreak]

powder why don't you use the ENTIRE winter totals, it would make a bit more sense to me since were talking annual snowfall (and i know it would only be a guesstimate, but c'mon you get crushed every year at the 3000' snowboard)

i mean didn't the snowboard "summit" get 245-250 last calendar year , not last operating year.

you guys get crushed regardless. 250 last year in a pitiful winter lol that breaks anybody's ALL TIME RECORD total in SNE by a factor of at least 1.5 usually 2. read that line again people, till it sinks in. uhh back to reality

if i were you i wouldn't even follow the winter conversation, i'd just look out the window and wait for it to snow 225+ inches, and it WILL . money in the bank at elevation in the northern most greens, money in the f'n bank

TBH, I just like knowing what I have physically seen and measured. I can endorse those measurements. And I only check the 3,000ft snowboard when the lifts are running. Sure we had that 27" upslope event in April after closing so you can add that on, but I'm talking in terms of the ski resort and I feel like you can't add snow to the total that people didn't get to ski during the operating season.

Plus, honestly, after a long winter of measuring and counting and diligence, I like to just enjoy the snowfall pre and post season without getting too wrapped up in amounts, haha.

[dryslot]

haha... hey I don't like to embellish but I won't point out reasons why you shouldn't go skiing. Plus to me, I'll often point out skiing in the rain/warm thaw day is going to be much more enjoyable due to the soft snow, than the day after when we have NW winds 50mph and the snowpack is frozen rock hard. That day is worse to me than the soft snow from thawing day when its comfortable outside instead of pond ice conditions and freezing to death.

I know people hate it but its still a business. I read a lot of snow reports and most places never outright lie (like saying its snowing when its raining)... you gotta read between the lines though. We are still offering a product and folks looking for a report that says either, "you should ski today" or "no you shouldn't ski today" isn't going to happen. Sometimes the product isn't as good as other times, but if we say it sucks, why would we even open for the day?

Its like a restaurant and asking the Chef if you should come to eat dinner there tonight... is he going to tell you, "well most of the food is close to expiring and our refrigerator broke yesterday so a lot of our food is questionable?" No, he'll stick to the positives and say "the lamb came in fresh today and tastes awesome". I can always find a positive reason to be out on the mountain, there's always at least a few trails that are skiing really nicely no matter what the conditions.

Sott, With the season being as short as it is, You guys can't afford any loss revenue, So if they don't ask, Your right why volunteer the info especially if it could have a negative impact

[HoarfrostHubb]

I think if Ginx and I can ski at that (or above), its all good...

Any updates from BEast? High speed quad...lol

[Sugarloaf1989]

I realize that the ski areas have to market a product that is most certainly not weather proof, but sometimes ski areas will resort to some "stretching of the truth" especially in the pre internet days. I recall plenty of times when this happened especially early and late season at Killington when they went head to head with Sunday River. I skied in some really awfull conditions that did not at all resemble what was represented in the taped report and questioned why the resort was even opened for skiing to begin with.

One opened trail magically became cut into many sections such as upper upper, upper middle. lower upper middle, while snowmaking and weather facts where fudged as well and so forth. I can recall one day in the early 1990's when the guy selling me a lift ticket stated that he would not ski today if his life depended on it and one snow report stating that walking trails opened today may require some skiing.

[powderfreak]

Yeah well I definitely think some reports are better than others but on the whole the idea of a snow report is getting more truthful thanks to the Internet and social media. Businesses in general can't pull a fast one by consumers anymore cause you'll get called out as soon as you do.

Lastly...I wouldn't mind if a moderator moved all the recent ski posts to the ski thread. We should have this discussion and last night's posts moved and carry on over in that thread.

[adk]

I think the internet has really changed ski area snowfall reporting for the better. Jay was notoriously bad about stretching the truth but it seems the internet has flamed them back to respectability. There is also a perspective. Are you- like PF - going to report what fell generally on the mountain while knowing some spots collected more, or are you going to go find the deepest spot and measure that? That's really where much of the current discrepancy between what's reported and what's found comes from.

[powderfreak]

I think the internet has really changed ski area snowfall reporting for the better. Jay was notoriously bad about stretching the truth but it seems the internet has flamed them back to respectability. There is also a perspective. Are you- like PF - going to report what fell generally on the mountain while knowing some spots collected more, or are you going to go find the deepest spot and measure that? That's really where much of the current discrepancy between what's reported and what's found comes from.

Exactly... I've found that the average skier will over-estimate new snowfall, which is why I think sometimes the regular day-to-day crowd will think I'm low. I guess its the same as the average person will usually over-estimate how much snow is on their car in the morning from excitement.

With skiing though on a big mountain, you're going to have deeper areas and not-so-deep areas. That's why sometimes 5-6" on a sheltered snow board can feel like a foot to people...because guess where they are skiing? In the drifted deep areas. As a skier you search out the deepest powder without even knowing it. You're reading the trail and one side could be blown clean (ie 0") but you choose to ski down the side that looks buffed and deep (10"), then get to the bottom and say, "wow that was over my boots and they said there was only 5" of snow!" And I think in the past snow reporters at Stowe got caught up in that... which is why stakes are crucial and in non-wind affected areas. Most snow reporters are *into* the weather but not to the extent that I am (along with everyone on this board)... so you can see when you are measuring outside Mountain Operations that half the snow is coming from the roof above. So don't measure there and put a stake in the woods 100 yards away.