PottercountyWXobserver Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I thought I would make a thread specifically for Hydrogen fuel or any other alternative fuel mainly for the transportation infrastructure to help reduce AGW. Serious question, and I don't mean to sound dumb, but would the use of hydrogen fuel still pose a threat of some AGW because of the release of water vapor? Also would the release of pure hydrogen via a leak pose any threat to the ozone layer? Would someone with greater knowledge please add your thoughts, this would be greatly welcomed. I still think it is a way better fuel than any of the fossil fuels, but I was just curious on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonebuster Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I thought I would make a thread specifically for Hydrogen fuel or any other alternative fuel mainly for the transportation infrastructure to help reduce AGW. Serious question, and I don't mean to sound dumb, but would the use of hydrogen fuel still pose a threat of some AGW because of the release of water vapor? Also would the release of pure hydrogen via a leak pose any threat to the ozone layer? Would someone with greater knowledge please add your thoughts, this would be greatly welcomed. I still think it is a way better fuel than any of the fossil fuels, but I was just curious on this issue. Actually Hydrogen is a great fuel because when you burn it you get water as your byproduct not Co2.. Problems with it are production,transportation and storage. Production wise we need a lot of it and it takes a lot of energy to produce it. Transporting it is dangerous,there can not be any leaks when transporting it or storing it otherwise it goes boom and without a spark. It is very dangerous. Another problem with hydrogen is the heat it creates when it is burned the Co2 that is already in our atmosphere from burning fossil fuels is going to be with us for a few hundred more years before it starts coming down and unfortunately it is going to trap that heat also when the hydrogen is burned .However, when Co2 values are reduced I am all for it......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottercountyWXobserver Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 I understand there is no CO2 emissions which is great, but I was just wondering if there would be any consequences of the added water vapor if any. Also would there be any impacts on the ozone if the pure hydrogen leaked out. I think it is great technology and wish it would start catching on, but was just wonder about these questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonebuster Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I understand there is no CO2 emissions which is great, but I was just wondering if there would be any consequences of the added water vapor if any. Also would there be any impacts on the ozone if the pure hydrogen leaked out. I think it is great technology and wish it would start catching on, but was just wonder about these questions. Those two consequences added water vapor and effect on Ozone would be to infinitesimal to measure on a global scale......... The much bigger effect would be the heat it creates when burned.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csnavywx Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Hydrogen is not an alternative energy source (or an energy source at all for that matter). Repeat that with me. Why? 1) Very low energy density. A gallon of compressed hydrogen gives out just 11% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline. This creates all kinds of problems with storage and adequate engine power. 2) It takes more energy to create hydrogen than you get from burning it as a fuel. Electrolysis of water incurs a 30%+ energy loss to produce hydrogen. That electricity often comes from fossil fuels (which also incur losses to extract and convert to electricity). Trying to use renewables to bypass this does not help due to the inherently lower net energy returns of said renewables. It's a dud; a non-starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PottercountyWXobserver Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Hydrogen is not an alternative energy source (or an energy source at all for that matter). Repeat that with me. Why? 1) Very low energy density. A gallon of compressed hydrogen gives out just 11% of the energy of a gallon of gasoline. This creates all kinds of problems with storage and adequate engine power. 2) It takes more energy to create hydrogen than you get from burning it as a fuel. Electrolysis of water incurs a 30%+ energy loss to produce hydrogen. That electricity often comes from fossil fuels (which also incur losses to extract and convert to electricity). Trying to use renewables to bypass this does not help due to the inherently lower net energy returns of said renewables. It's a dud; a non-starter. I never said it was an energy source, but it is an energy carrier. You're right it does take a lot of energy to produce the hydrogen which does mainly come from methane via steam cracking. I could see this being a starter IF the hydrogen is produced from electrolysis via alternative energy. The energy coming from the wind is practically free, so no matter the low energy density, you are still getting something out of the alternative energy, plus 0 emissions is unbeatable. You can't be investing into hydrogen for profit, people should be investing in it to advance society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I never said it was an energy source, but it is an energy carrier. You're right it does take a lot of energy to produce the hydrogen which does mainly come from methane via steam cracking. I could see this being a starter IF the hydrogen is produced from electrolysis via alternative energy. The energy coming from the wind is practically free, so no matter the low energy density, you are still getting something out of the alternative energy, plus 0 emissions is unbeatable. You can't be investing into hydrogen for profit, people should be investing in it to advance society. Why not just use the wind generated power rather than incurring the loss in efficiency during the conversion to hydrogen? Entropy works against the efficiency of this process if the end product does not contain significantly greater energy potential than the investment in producing it. Other than a local enhancement to humidity, negligible to begin with, additional water vapor will simply condense out, or slow the evaporative process elsewhere with no long term accumulative effect on radiative forcing by water vapor. On Earth, the water vapor content of the atmosphere is more dependent on ambient temperature than it is on available water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salbers Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Compared with the water vapor evaporating from the land and oceans I agree the amount produced from burning hydrogen would be that much on a large scale. I think gasoline also produces some water vapor as a byproduct of combustion. I sort of recall stories of fog being created by cars in Fairbanks in the winter. On the other hand, the heat produced could be significant if it increased by another 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. At any rate, using hydrogen as a carrier, and maybe producing it by electrolysis with a non-fossil fuel source of electricity sounds like an improvement over the status quo. Regarding energy density, maybe adsorptive materials can help do better than simply compressing hydrogen gas. Another option is actually making natural gas (methane) from hydrogen and CO2 from the atmosphere. Hydrogen and/or methane could be made from nuclear power, either traditional fission, large or small -scale hot fusion, or LENR (a new name regarding ongoing developments in "cold fusion"). Solar and wind power actually have problems with producing too much energy at times, so energy storage in various forms including hydrogen/methane could be helpful. If the energy flow from these sources can be smoothed out over time they could be more widely used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 http://skeptrek.lt/post/21433772041/pucker-my-anus-and-call-me-excited-its-****ing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipS Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 There may be viable applications for hydrogen fuel. I know of two startup companies here in Texas working to develop energy storage systems that use hydrogen instead of batteries or flywheels. The hydrogen would be produced by electrolysis, be stored under high pressure until needed, and fuel cells would use the hydrogen to generate energy for the electrical grid. The intended market is large windfarms which can produce energy when it's not needed and which need on-site reactive power to energize the generators when they start up. The energy storage system would allow windfarms to 'bank' power until it's most profitable to sell it - typically peak demand is around 3pm to 6 pm daily. Here in Texas, ERCOT regulates the electrical energy markets and the price of power can vary from as low as $30/MWhr off-peak to a limit of $3000/MWhr peak. The price very rarely hits the $3000/MWhr limit but it often varies by an order of magnitude during a 24-hour period. As has been pointed out, the relatively low energy density of hydrogen may limit its use in cars and trucks, but there has been discussion of using hydrogen to augment diesel locomotives - making them hybrid vehicles, so to speak. As most readers are aware, the diesel engine on a locomotive turns a generator which in turn powers the electric drive motors. In the conceptual design, an additional car would be added behind the locomotive and it would have a large hydrogen tank and fuel cells to generate electrical power to augment the diesel engine/generator when needed. I don't know know if this concept has even reached the prototype stage but it is the sort of niche application that hydrogen may be viable for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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