Winter 2012-2013 General Discussion

[Jonger]

Who wants to see a Lake Effect Snow Meso?

Feb 7th 2003

2002-2003

Yes please.

[michsnowfreak]

2002-2003

Yes please.

You wont hear any arguments from me! At the time, 2002-03 was my first experience with a 60+ inch winter (66.9" imby, 60.9" DTW). It was the snowiest winter since 1981-82, the year before I was born. Plenty of synoptic snow but also decent bouts of lake effect. The first blanket of snow was Nov 22 and the last Apr 7, the Apr snowstorm being 5" of POWDER, something I had never seen before nor since. The Dec 2nd clipper brought with it record cold, we had the perfect Christmas snowstorm of 7", I had my first experience with thundersnow in the 11.5-inch snowstorm Feb 22/23...if this winter had occurred in the 1990s it would be talked about WAY more than it is, but in the 9 years since it happened we have eclipsed that snowfall total FOUR times!

[Geos]

Michigan must have gotten quite a bit more snow for the winter of 2002-2003. Probably more lake effect correct? Only 36.4" here that season.

[SpartyOn]

Michigan must have gotten quite a bit more snow for the winter of 2002-2003. Probably more lake effect correct? Only 36.4" here that season.

The overall storm track favored MI. Also the LES machine was incredible.

[Hoosier]

Yeah, 02-03 was the winter with the crazy gradient between Detroit/Chicago.

[michsnowfreak]

Yeah, 02-03 was the winter with the crazy gradient between Detroit/Chicago.

An insane gradient for sure, one that is rarely seen but has happened a few times before (see 1978-79, that one in Chicagos favor). The most astounding was Feb 2003. Mind boggling how two cities in such relative close proximity can see such a difference!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2002-03 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CHICAGO (ORD) - - - - - - - - -DETROIT (DTW)

Nov 17: 1.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 22: 1.1"

Nov 24: 0.9" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 25: 0.3"

Nov 26: 2.8" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 30: 0.2"

Nov 2002: 4.7" - - - - - - - - - - Nov 2002: 1.6"

Dec 02: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 02: 5.8"

Dec 03: 2.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 13: 0.5"

Dec 24: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 15: 0.3"

Dec 25: 2.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 24: 2.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dec 25: 3.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dec 28: 0.1"

Dec 2002: 8.0" - - - - - - - - - - Dec 2002: 13.1"

Jan 02: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 02: 5.3"

Jan 04: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 03: 0.5"

Jan 05: 0.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 05: 0.8"

Jan 10: 0.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 06: 0.6"

Jan 14: 0.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 10: 0.7"

Jan 18: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 11: 0.5"

Jan 25: 0.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 14: 0.1"

Jan 28: 2.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 15: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 18: 0.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 19: 0.6"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 20: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 23: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 24: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 25: 0.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 26: 0.4"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 27: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 28: 2.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 31: 0.3"

Jan 2003: 4.3" - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 2003: 13.9"

Feb 24: 1.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 01: 1.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 04: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 05: 0.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 07: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 09: 0.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 10: 2.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 11: 1.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 12: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 13: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 17: 3.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 18: 0.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 22: 5.8"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 23: 1.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 24: 2.5"

Feb 2003: 1.5" - - - - - - - - - - Feb 2003: 19.2"

Mar 03: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 02: 0.3"

Mar 04: 4.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 03: 0.3"

Mar 05: 2.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 04: 0.1"

Mar 06: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 05: 4.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 06: 0.6"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 09: 0.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 13: 2.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 31: 0.3"

Mar 2003: 7.1" - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 2003: 8.1"

Apr 07: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 05: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 07: 4.9"

Apr 2003: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 2003: 5.0"

2003-2003: 28.6" - - - - - - - - - 2002-2003: 60.9"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Detroits 2"+ snowstorms in 2002-03

7.3" - Feb 22/23

6.4" - Dec 24/25

5.8" - Dec 2

5.8" - Jan 2/3

4.9" - Apr 7

4.2" - Mar 4/5

3.8" - Feb 17/18

2.5" - Feb 24

2.2" - Jan 28

2.0" - Feb 10

2.0" - Mar 13

Chicagos 2"+ snowstorms in 2002-03

6.1" - Mar 4/5

5.5" - Dec 2/3

3.0" - Apr 7

2.8" - Nov 26

2.5" - Dec 24/25

2.4" - Jan 28

Note: The Feb 22/23 storm dropped 11.5" imby, a full 4"+ more than DTW. Storm track ftw!

[Chicago WX]

IND kicked ORD's butt in 2002-03 as well. Even more rare.

50.0" total snowfall that season. Good for 4th place all time for Indianapolis.

November: 0.5" (11/22: 0.1", 11/26: 0.2", 11/30: 0.2")

December: 10.6" (12/4: 0.1", 12/5: 0.2", 12/11: 1.7", 12/13: 0.6", 12/20: 0.2", 12/24: 5.9", 12/25: 1.9")

January: 14.6" (1/2: 3.1", 1/3: 0.1", 1/4: 0.5", 1/5: 1.4", 1/6: 0.3", 1/14: 0.5", 1/16: 2.0", 1/18: 1.0", 1/21: 0.1", 1/26: 2.8", 1/31: 2.0")

February: 21.7" (2/6: 0.9", 2/7: 0.3", 2/9: 0.2", 2/10: 1.2", 2/11: 4.6", 2/14: 0.1", 2/15: 2.1", 2/16: 2.0", 2/17: 0.7", 2/19: 0.1", 2/22: 6.3", 2/23: 0.3", 2/24: 2.7", 2/27: 0.1", 2/28: 0.1")

March: 2.6" (3/1: 0.4", 3/2: 0.1", 3/5: 0.3", 3/6: 1.8")

April: T

[Geos]

Yeah, 02-03 was the winter with the crazy gradient between Detroit/Chicago.

I remember that winter pretty well. All the good storms were pushed to the east or south by cold air blasts. Had a lot of days that resembled the frozen tundra with just a few inches on the ground at one time! The cold shots were impressive in January and February with the scant snow pack.

[wisconsinwx]

An insane gradient for sure, one that is rarely seen but has happened a few times before (see 1978-79, that one in Chicagos favor). The most astounding was Feb 2003. Mind boggling how two cities in such relative close proximity can see such a difference!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2002-03 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CHICAGO (ORD) - - - - - - - - -DETROIT (DTW)

Nov 17: 1.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 22: 1.1"

Nov 24: 0.9" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 25: 0.3"

Nov 26: 2.8" - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 30: 0.2"

Nov 2002: 4.7" - - - - - - - - - - Nov 2002: 1.6"

Dec 02: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 02: 5.8"

Dec 03: 2.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 13: 0.5"

Dec 24: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 15: 0.3"

Dec 25: 2.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - Dec 24: 2.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dec 25: 3.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dec 28: 0.1"

Dec 2002: 8.0" - - - - - - - - - - Dec 2002: 13.1"

Jan 02: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 02: 5.3"

Jan 04: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 03: 0.5"

Jan 05: 0.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 05: 0.8"

Jan 10: 0.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 06: 0.6"

Jan 14: 0.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 10: 0.7"

Jan 18: 0.3" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 11: 0.5"

Jan 25: 0.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 14: 0.1"

Jan 28: 2.4" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 15: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 18: 0.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 19: 0.6"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 20: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 23: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 24: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 25: 0.7"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 26: 0.4"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 27: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 28: 2.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 31: 0.3"

Jan 2003: 4.3" - - - - - - - - - - -Jan 2003: 13.9"

Feb 24: 1.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 01: 1.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 04: 0.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 05: 0.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 07: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 09: 0.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 10: 2.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 11: 1.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 12: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 13: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 17: 3.3"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 18: 0.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 22: 5.8"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 23: 1.5"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Feb 24: 2.5"

Feb 2003: 1.5" - - - - - - - - - - Feb 2003: 19.2"

Mar 03: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 02: 0.3"

Mar 04: 4.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 03: 0.3"

Mar 05: 2.1" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 04: 0.1"

Mar 06: 0.5" - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 05: 4.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 06: 0.6"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 09: 2.2"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 13: 2.0"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 31: 0.3"

Mar 2003: 7.1" - - - - - - - - - - -Mar 2003: 8.1"

Apr 07: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 05: 0.1"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 07: 4.9"

Apr 2003: 3.0" - - - - - - - - - - - Apr 2003: 5.0"

2003-2003: 28.6" - - - - - - - - - 2002-2003: 60.9"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Detroits 2"+ snowstorms in 2002-03

7.3" - Feb 22/23

6.4" - Dec 24/25

5.8" - Dec 2

5.8" - Jan 2/3

4.9" - Apr 7

4.2" - Mar 4/5

3.8" - Feb 17/18

2.5" - Feb 24

2.2" - Jan 28

2.2" - Mar 9

2.0" - Feb 10

2.0" - Mar 13

Chicagos 2"+ snowstorms in 2002-03

6.1" - Mar 4/5

5.5" - Dec 2/3

3.0" - Apr 7

2.8" - Nov 26

2.5" - Dec 24/25

2.4" - Jan 28

Note: The Feb 22/23 storm dropped 11.5" imby, a full 4"+ more than DTW. Storm track ftw!

Great snow season for you guys there in SE Michigan compared to much of the Midwest, but that looks like the king of nickel and dime winters, with the greatest storm barely surpassing WSW type criteria.

[Chicago WX]

2002-03 season totals and departures (vs 1971-00 normals)

Chicago IL: 28.6" -9.4"

Moline IL: 18.7" -16.5"

Peoria IL: 19.2" -7.1"

Rockford IL: 18.3" -19.6"

Springfield IL: 25.1" +0.5"

Evansville IN: 21.0" +6.9"

Fort Wayne IN: 46.7" +11.6"

Indianapolis IN: 50.0" +23.3"

South Bend IN: 60.1" -7.6"

Dubuque IA: 23.4" -21.9"

Louisville KY: 16.3" +1.6"

Detroit MI: 60.9" +17.6"

Flint MI: 49.3" +1.4"

Grand Rapids MI: 88.0" +21.6"

Lansing MI: 43.1" -10.7"

Marquette MI: 183.1" +12.3"

Muskegon MI: 56.5" -32.3"

Minneapolis MN: 35.0" -18.7"

Rochester MN: 28.5" -22.6"

Columbia MO: 18.2" -8.0"

St. Louis MO: 29.8" +7.6"

Cincinnati OH: 33.4" +9.9"

Cleveland OH: 95.7" +34.3"

Columbus OH: 50.6" +22.2"

Dayton OH: 43.7" +14.6"

Toledo OH: 56.4" +19.0"

Toronto ON: 64.0" ?

Green Bay WI: 38.9" -13.0"

La Crosse WI: 31.1" -13.3"

Madison WI: 28.8" -20.5"

Milwaukee WI: 34.7" -17.7"

[SpartyOn]

I remember that winter pretty well. All the good storms were pushed to the east or south by cold air blasts. Had a lot of days that resembled the frozen tundra with just a few inches on the ground at one time! The cold shots were impressive in January and February with the scant snow pack.

What u described sounds like the worst possible winter. Cold and dry. Awful

[michsnowfreak]

Great snow season for you guys there in SE Michigan compared to much of the Midwest, but that looks like the king of nickel and dime winters, with the greatest storm barely surpassing WSW type criteria.

Nickle and diming is a part of this regions winter climo, some love it and some hate it, but it definitely adds a frequency to snow falling in the winter not seen in any other region really. The nickel and diming was way up in 2002-03, although the top 2 snowstorms were clearly warning criteria (the biggest storm much more severe imby than DTW), with an additional 5 of advisory criteria, 2 of those which were basically low warning criteria or very high advisory criteria.

With 51 days of measurable snowfall at DTW, this tied 1959-60 (47.7") and 2000-01 (39.0") for 5th most measurable snow days on record. 4th place is 1903-04 with 54 days (57.0"), 3rd place is 1985-86 with 52 days (54.2") and the most measurable days is 62 days, set in 1880-81 (93.6") and 1925-26 (78.0").

Here are the 1"+ snowfalls at DTW in 2002-03, with mby total next to them

7.3" - Feb 22/23 ------ 11.5" imby

6.4" - Dec 24/25 ------ 6.8" imby

5.8" - Dec 2 ------------ 4.6" imby

5.8" - Jan 2/3 ---------- 5.3" imby

4.9" - Apr 7 ------------- 5.0" imby

4.2" - Mar 4/5 ---------- 3.3" imby

3.8" - Feb 17/18 ------- 4.7" imby

2.5" - Feb 24 ----------- 2.6" imby

2.2" - Jan 28 ----------- 1.7" imby

2.0" - Feb 10 ----------- 2.0" imby

2.0" - Mar 13 ----------- 2.1" imby

1.4" - Jan 5/6 ----------- 2.0" imby

1.3" - Jan 31/Feb 1 --- 1.4" imby

1.2" - Feb 11 ----------- 1.0" imby

1.1" - Nov 22 ----------- 2.3" imby

1.1" - Jan 25/26 ------- 1.4" imby

0.7" - Jan 18/19 ------- 1.3" imby

[michsnowfreak]

a few years ago I scanned a few pics from my 35mm days to add to my wunderground photo collection. So here are a few from 2002-03.

DEC 3, 2002 - footprints

DEC 25, 2002 - the snowstorm which lasted from 10pm 12/24 to 3pm 12/25 had epic timing

JAN 3, 2002 - old snowman gets a fresh blanket

JAN 6, 2003 - this snow-cloud was as menacing as most summer storm clouds

FEB 23, 2003 - a drifty yard after an 11.5-inch snowstorm

APR 7, 2003 - powder in April....what a fitting way to end a snowy winter

[Chicago WX]

12/24-25/2002 was one of the best Christmas gifts ever.

[Hoosier]

12/24-25/2002 was one of the best Christmas gifts ever.

Indeed. IMO it is right up there with that February event from a couple winters ago in terms of surprises/late shifts.

[michsnowfreak]

Indeed. IMO it is right up there with that February event from a couple winters ago in terms of surprises/late shifts.

We had bare ground but a gray sky Christmas Eve morning (the snowcover from the first half of December had melted a week or so earlier) and I can STILL remember the weather person on the news saying flat out "we will not have a White Christmas this year", showing how snow would be well to our south. We ended up with 6-7 inches of the most PERFECTLY timed snow. It began to snow at 10pm Christmas Eve, quickly becoming very heavy towards midnight and then lightening in intensity but snowing nonstop til 3pm Christmas Day. That is as Courier & Ives as you can get. And it was an interesting trend of 5 years of arguably perfectly timed snow for Christmas. Especially after the 1990s saw just 1 "official" White Christmas (5" depth in 1990) followed by 9 years of bare Christmas (3 of those 9 years had a T on the ground).

Christmas 2000: Sunny but frigid, snowpack from 6-16" in SE MI (6" DTW, 9" imby). First 1"+ snowdepth on 12/25 since 1990.

Christmas 2001: Just a dusting on the ground, but snow showers fell all day

Christmas 2002: Snowstorm 10pm 12/24 to 3pm 12/25. Snowfall of 6.4" at DTW, 6.8" imby

Christmas 2003: Light snow fell late Christmas Eve throughout all of Christmas Day. 1.7" DTW, 3.3" imby

Christmas 2004: Bitter cold, fresh deep snow from the Dec 23rd storm, 8.9" DTW, 8.5" imby

[michsnowfreak]

Did a quick calculation, using ENSO condition based on a snowfall chart Chicagowx posted a while back, as I was wondering when 6"+ storms were most common at DTW.

http://www.americanw...totals-by-enso/

At Detroit, since 1949-50....are 6"+ snowstorms most common in El Nino, La Nina, or Neautral winters?

La Nina – 20 storms in 22 yrs (avg would be 0.9 per Nina year -- avg snowfall 40.9")

El Nino – 22 storms in 18 yrs (avg would be 1.2 per Nino year -- avg snowfall 38.4")

Neutral – 25 storms in 23 yrs (avg would be 1.1 per Neautral year -- avg snowfall 45.2")

Total --- 67 storms in 63 yrs (avg is 1.1 per year - 1949-2012 avg snowfall 41.7")

So technically, Nino winters have a SLIGHT advantage when it comes to big snowstorms, even though they have a slight disadvantage when it comes to total snowfall. However with the results being so close, not to mention its not even including the pre-1950 years which have really come into play as analogs the last few years...its anyones guess. Plus who knows how many of those 5-5.9" storms may have been a 6"+ storm in most areas? So many unknowns.

[wishforsnow]

You wont hear any arguments from me! At the time, 2002-03 was my first experience with a 60+ inch winter (66.9" imby, 60.9" DTW). It was the snowiest winter since 1981-82, the year before I was born. Plenty of synoptic snow but also decent bouts of lake effect. The first blanket of snow was Nov 22 and the last Apr 7, the Apr snowstorm being 5" of POWDER, something I had never seen before nor since. The Dec 2nd clipper brought with it record cold, we had the perfect Christmas snowstorm of 7", I had my first experience with thundersnow in the 11.5-inch snowstorm Feb 22/23...if this winter had occurred in the 1990s it would be talked about WAY more than it is, but in the 9 years since it happened we have eclipsed that snowfall total FOUR times!

I clearly remember the winter of 81-82 I was 11 at the time. Remember riding with my father taking my mother to work in a bad blizzard. We had many of them that winter. The one blizzard the wind blew so hard it blew all the snow off the surrounding fields and then blew the dirt causing the snow all around us to turn black with the dirt mixing in it. Dad's van quit putting out heat out of the vents due to it was so cold outside. He also had to put in low gear to keep the engine running. He didn't even have to shut off the van when we got home. The engine shut off after he put it into park. School was cancelled many times that winter.

[IWXwx]

Tropical's winter forecast:

[mnweather]

little urban heat island there, eh?

[Geos]

Lol^.

I think will see our first snowfalls in early November this year (for most of the subforum) - unlike last late Autumn. I would expect a quicker start to winter given a weak El Niño or neutral conditions.

[cyclone77]

Here's my forecast map from last year. Guess I'll post it again.

[IWXwx]

Your winter forecast busted big time,

I'm not about to make a prediction, but my gut, along with everything I've read makes me agree with Geos. I think that the northern part of our subforum may see some measurable snow earlier than normal and the southern part see some measurable snow before Thanksgiving, possibly in early Nov.

[Chicago WX]

Current gut feeling for LAF...subject to change many times before winter starts.

DJF temps: +0.5º to +1.5º

Season snowfall: 25.0" to 30.0"

[Tropical]

Tropical's winter forecast:

That's wrong. Too much blue. I have confidence in this one.

[cyclone77]

FWIW I couldn't care less about temp anomalies during the winter months. Either way it's either gonna be cold, or VERY cold lol. Although I do love some of the extremely cold temps we see every few years. Anything extreme is interesting to me. Regarding winter I care considerably more about snowfall than anything else. Temps don't have to necessarily be colder than average to attain a snowy winter.

[Tropical]

FWIW I couldn't care less about temp anomalies during the winter months. Either way it's either gonna be cold, or VERY cold lol. Although I do love some of the extremely cold temps we see every few years. Anything extreme is interesting to me. Regarding winter I care considerably more about snowfall than anything else. Temps don't have to necessarily be colder than average to attain a snowy winter.

Normal high for me is 29 in mid January. Get a +4 temp departure going and that changes fluffy white snow into nice liquid rain. So anomalies do matter.

[IWXwx]

Normal high for me is 29 in mid January. Get a +4 temp departure going and that changes fluffy white snow into nice liquid rain. So anomalies do matter.

You're basing your argument on a simplistic, specific instance. There are many things wrong with it. Just to name one.....eh, never mind. It's not worth it. Enjoy your 33 and rain.

[michsnowfreak]

Normal high for me is 29 in mid January. Get a +4 temp departure going and that changes fluffy white snow into nice liquid rain. So anomalies do matter.

This so lacks a basic understanding of how weather works, that its ALMOST not funny!

[michsnowfreak]

You're basing your argument on a simplistic, specific instance. There are many things wrong with it. Just to name one.....eh, never mind. It's not worth it. Enjoy your 33 and rain.

so true.

In other news...its looking like the chances of a mod/strong Nino are getting slimmer and slimmer. A weak Nino would be perfect for our region. I will go with winter of 2012-13 falling somewhere between "better than 2011-12" and "flat out awesome".