Late June 2012 storms

[mappy]

I agree with this--- so what I don't get is in this thread, there seem to be posters that are saying both that citizens should take repsonsibility for paying attention to warnings and be prepared to be self-sufficient (and therefore, not lash out at government or power companies, right?) and that we should deservedly be upset at the governments and power companies for not having turned on all the lights by now.

So should citizens blame others or not?

A citizen has the right to be angry at the power companies for taking forever to get the power back on, yet it also goes hand in hand with being proactive before the storm hits.

This goes for county/city governments, power companies, and the average citizen - be proactive! Don't wait unil the damn storm hits before deciding to do something.

[Ian]

My main issue with the lack of lead is just how disproportionate our screaming from the rafters is before events. Everyone was all in a tizzy about a tornado event that basically impacted no one other than being scared. Even in a worst case scenario the impacts of June 1 would have been far less. If we're building a weather ready nation is it really a success story that 5 million people lose power, and people die because they didn't know they shouldnt be outside during those 10 minutes, with 6 hours warning?

[sauss06]

Well then they arent following the rules then., Blizz of 96, Nj declared a state of emergency a few hours into the storm. Way before it got really bad and incicidents were happening. I know some other states have done the same in other situations.

PA for sure has declared ahead of time. I think it helps free up resources prior to the event. like the National gaurd etc.

[catoctin wx]

I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds!

Agreed.  Plus this was a Friday night in the summer on a day with temps over 100.  Chances are these companies needed to keep their people close due to expected power outages from increased demand.   We get severe watches all the time and nobody pays attention, so why would companies line up hundreds of workers and trucks, spending tens of thousands of dollars in resources for such a small chance?   I've heard that this was such an rare event because these types of systems rarely make it over the mountains.  I can't blame the power companies at all for this.  It's amazing that they already have crews here from as far away as Canada and New Mexico.

[chris87]

Chris,

I never said for every TS watch that is issued. It was obvious that this wasnt just going to be another routine Tstorm in the region.

Yes I know, look at the effort to mobilize assets in preparation for a hurricane, it takes days...not hours, that's the point.

[H2O]

I think a lot of people are lashing out because PEPCO has proven it can't handle anything over the last few years. that's years of built up enmity.

I didn't hear a lot of complaining out here because we don't have PEPCO and the crews were visible early Saturday morning, with the backup help from other states headquartered as of Sunday afternoon at one of the local shopping plazas. the more remote areas are going to take several days for restoration but that's understandable given the amount of work needed to restring individual residences several miles from each other.

You are right that rural areas will take longer and that is understandable. I also agree that for years PEPCO has always struggled with events similar to these and that they have yet to come up with a solution. Not to take their side but I also know that they have received backlash when they tried to trim up their lines from people and IMBYism. It would not surprise me that the very same people complaining about this latest power issue were complaining about losing a tree that PEPCO wanted to remove for this very reason.

[freestater]

I was driving through a residential neighborhood when the storm hit. The irony is that I checked DCA's TDWR before going out because the lights were flickering, and the radar image didn't look threatening to me. Now I know all about attenuation and range unfolding.

If that had been a movie it would have looked unrealistic. There were flashes all over the horizon, almost once a second, from either transformers or lightning. When the wind hit it was like being inside a snow globe of sticks and leaves. I could hear trees breaking with the windows up. I had to drive through two front lawns to get around fallen trees that were blocking the road. Black locusts faired worst, their wood is too hard to flex in wind that high, many of them snapped right in half.

The top of this tree landed about 25 yards from the base.

[chris87]

My main issue with the lack of lead is just how disproportionate our screaming from the rafters is before events. Everyone was all in a tizzy about a tornado event that basically impacted no one other than being scared. Even in a worst case scenario the impacts of June 1 would have been far less. If we're building a weather ready nation is it really a success story that 5 million people lose power, and people die because they didn't know they shouldnt be outside during those 10 minutes, with 6 hours warning?

not to mention the financial footprint for this storm will be so much larger...but face it...tornadoes are sexy...derechos aren't....

[mappy]

My main issue with the lack of lead is just how disproportionate our screaming from the rafters is before events. Everyone was all in a tizzy about a tornado event that basically impacted no one other than being scared. Even in a worst case scenario the impacts of June 1 would have been far less. If we're building a weather ready nation is it really a success story that 5 million people lose power, and people die because they didn't know they shouldnt be outside during those 10 minutes, with 6 hours warning?

Absolutely not - its a shame people had to die and so many lost power. Even more so that days later there are still hundreds of thousands without power.

But who do you blame for the deaths? NWS/News people for "lacking of warning" or the people themselves for either being out in the storm, or not paying attention?

[gymengineer]

A citizen has the right to be angry at the power companies for taking forever to get the power back on, yet it also goes hand in hand with being proactive before the storm hits.

This goes for county/city governments, power companies, and the average citizen - be proactive! Don't wait unil the damn storm hits before deciding to do something.

Again, based on evidence that even tons of tree-trimming didn't decrease the extent of outages, I am not going to blame the power companies for not being able to turn on the lights two days after a once-in-a-generation event.

[HM]

When there is no forecast of storms in the morning or a 20% chance of them with no indication that there is anything other than a typical summer thunderstorm people are going to tune out especially on a Friday. This event was like 1,000X more damaging than the tornado outbreak at the beginning of the month. I'm actually surprised how people here think the forecasts were good.

I agree and this is where I was coming from. When you get this many casualties and injuries, we have to look at ourselves and see where we could have improved.

[Avdave]

PA for sure has declared ahead of time. I think it helps free up resources prior to the event. like the National gaurd etc.

Thanks I know it has been declared ahead of an storm,emergency, etc before.

Agreed. Plus this was a Friday night in the summer on a day with temps over 100. Chances are these companies needed to keep their people close due to expected power outages from increased demand. We get severe watches all the time and nobody pays attention, so why would companies line up hundreds of workers and trucks, spending tens of thousands of dollars in resources for such a small chance? I've heard that this was such an rare event because these types of systems rarely make it over the mountains. I can't blame the power companies at all for this. It's amazing that they already have crews here from as far away as Canada, and New Mexico.

Im not saying to unload all the other utility company workers, trucks, etc, but a handful would ve been nice in this situation. It would've put a dent in the recovery situation having more hands. I will say this, Chris is right, I dont know what it takes to send a crew down, but if it is a drawn out process then maybe that is something that needs to be looked at. again it was seen that this derecho was going to be pretty bad 4 hours in advance of reaching here. PP&L couldve had a few crews down here ready to take action once it was safe enough for them to go out there.

Yes I know, look at the effort to mobilize assets in preparation for a hurricane, it takes days...not hours, that's the point.

Im not asking for the whole company to be mobilized like after a hurricane, a handful of crews would be nice to have on the way so when it is clear enough to get out there they were there to help out.

[CheesyPoofs]

Ok. So then the average Joe shouldn't get pissed that they didn't get enough advance warning(when they did) because this thing would have damaged as much as it anyways. People(not you) are being stupid and lashing out because they think that in the 21st century power outages should never happen.

Well I won't comment on there being advanced warning, because I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there

I'm not sure people are lashing out at the fact that there are power outages, but rather the length of time it is taking to get everyone restored. I don't know all that is required during the restoration process, so I won't comment on that.

[Avdave]

Again, based on evidence that even tons of tree-trimming didn't decrease the extent of outages, I am not going to blame the power companies for not being able to turn on the lights two days after a once-in-a-generation event.

You have a link for that tree trimming doenst decrease the outage chances?

[chris87]

Thanks I know it has been declared ahead of an storm,emergency, etc before.

Im not saying to unload all the other utility company workers, trucks, etc, but a handful would ve been nice in this situation. It would've put a dent in the recovery situation having more hands. I will say this, Chris is right, I dont know what it takes to send a crew down, but if it is a drawn out process then maybe that is something that needs to be looked at. again it was seen that this derecho was going to be pretty bad 4 hours in advance of reaching here. PP&L couldve had a few crews down here ready to take action once it was safe enough for them to go out there.

Im not asking for the whole company to be mobilized like after a hurricane, a handful of crews would be nice to have on the way so when it is clear enough to get out there they were there to help out.

i think the mobilization may have been hampered in this case by the fact that areas from IN to MD were affected so there was probably a shortage of assets to mobilize and how do they get divided up over a larger impact region, case in point that we have crews coming from places like NM and central Canada.

[Scuddz]

BB's gotta be rakin' it in this week

[mappy]

Again, based on evidence that even tons of tree-trimming didn't decrease the extent of outages, I am not going to blame the power companies for not being able to turn on the lights two days after a once-in-a-generation event.

This was a once in a generation event?

[Ian]

I agree and this is where I was coming from. When you get this many casualties and injuries, we have to look at ourselves and see where we could have improved.

I don't even necessarily think earlier warnings would have changed all that much. Of course on the damage and power end probably nothing at all. It is possible it could have saved a life or two if people really realized what was coming, as well as some lesser property loss that people could have secured/moved indoors.

But, that still doesn't address the flaw in the public forecasting methods which almost entirely missed it until it was ongoing. How did a number of people on this board see it ahead of time yet no public forecast even hinted at the possibility?

I just don't see how it's OK to have one of the most damaging weather events in any year or over a course of years have a 3-6 hour lead. I sure as hell hope there are NOAA officials etc who agree because if not it's pretty sad.

[catoctin wx]

Im not saying to unload all the other utility company workers, trucks, etc, but a handful would ve been nice in this situation. It would've put a dent in the recovery situation having more hands. I will say this, Chris is right, I dont know what it takes to send a crew down, but if it is a drawn out process then maybe that is something that needs to be looked at. again it was seen that this derecho was going to be pretty bad 4 hours in advance of reaching here. PP&L couldve had a few crews down here ready to take action once it was safe enough for them to go out there.

I'm with you on the whole preparation part of what you were saying. Although, there is a lot of truth to what Andy said about people putting up a fight to save their trees from a maiming by the utilities. However, a large, committed effort to bury the power lines would be nice, but very expensive.

A few extra crews would have been nice, but I still don't think it's that reasonable in this situation. Most of the damage is concentrated right around DC. Virginia, Maryland, and WV were overwhelmed by this in every direction and only had a couple of hours of notice. Even then, I don't think anybody could have predicted this kind of devestation around here. Getting a few crews on the road 2 hours earlier from PA would have been good, but I doubt it would have made much of a difference.

[catoctin wx]

This was a once in a generation event?

I would think so given the damage vs. lead time of the event. Even tornado outbreaks in this area produce less damage, and have longer lead times.

[mappy]

I would think so given the damage vs. lead time of the event. Even tornado outbreaks in this area produce less damage, and have longer lead times.

It was a serious storm with lots of damage, no doubt about that - but I'm pretty sure it won't be the last derecho I experience in my lifetime.

So, "once a generation" is kind of extreme, no?

[HM]

I don't even necessarily think earlier warnings would have changed all that much. Of course on the damage and power end probably nothing at all. It is possible it could have saved a life or two if people really realized what was coming, as well as some lesser property loss that people could have secured/moved indoors.

But, that still doesn't address the flaw in the public forecasting methods which almost entirely missed it until it was ongoing. How did a number of people on this board see it ahead of time yet no public forecast even hinted at the possibility?

I just don't see how it's OK to have one of the most damaging weather events in any year or over a course of years have a 3-6 hour lead. I sure as hell hope there are NOAA officials etc who agree because if not it's pretty sad.

Perfectly stated. I also agree on the warning thing and as I said to Chris, I can't comment on that end of things. My whole thing was the lead forecasts which may or may not have influenced perception of the event locally. This forum was well aware of the potential, as you say, so what happened publically and relaying that info? That's what I'm interested in...

[biodhokie]

Well then they arent following the rules then., Blizz of 96, Nj declared a state of emergency a few hours into the storm. Way before it got really bad and incicidents were happening. I know some other states have done the same in other situations.

A governor can publicly declare a state of emergency for a major event (for damage and severity reasons) ahead of time, but the process behind the scenes is the same for federal aid. I'm sure by calling the a state of emergency ahead of time can get intra-state agencies mobilized but can't get interstate/federal aid until the process is complete.

There's no law as far as i know that states an elected official (in this case the governor) can't publicly call for a state of emergency until after the event has ended.

[catoctin wx]

It was a serious storm with lots of damage, no doubt about that - but I'm pretty sure it won't be the last derecho I experience in my lifetime.

So, "once a generation" is kind of extreme, no?

It's subjective no doubt, and I'll defer to those who have lived in this area longer than I have (4 years). This was my first derecho that I can recall.

My point was that this was unique in that we saw hurricane type damage from what most people would consider to be a strong thunderstorm. At least with a hurricane there is lots of lead time whereas there was comparatively little in this case.

Again, I suppose the term is subjective, depending on how dramatic one would like to be

[sauss06]

because i'm not overly familiar with all of your areas, in PA, most of the fire Dept are volunteers and are relied on heavily. When a storm hits (any season) much of the mess ( trees across raodways etc etc) is cleaned up by them. They spend countless hours assting. Is that common in your areas?

[gymengineer]

It was a serious storm with lots of damage, no doubt about that - but I'm pretty sure it won't be the last derecho I experience in my lifetime.

So, "once a generation" is kind of extreme, no?

FInd another windstorm since Hurricane Hazel that produced as widespread 65+mph recorded winds across the region.

Sure, other thunderstorms were more severe in particular given locations, but there hasn't been this significant of a wind-event for the entire region since Hazel.

That the three airports all reported around 70 mph peak gust shows how completely unusual this event was.

[mappy]

It's subjective no doubt, and I'll defer to those who have lived in this area longer than I have (4 years). This was my first derecho that I can recall.

My point was that this was unique in that we saw hurricane type damage from what most people would consider to be a strong thunderstorm. At least with a hurricane there is lots of lead time whereas there was comparatively little in this case.

Again, I suppose the term is subjective, depending on how dramatic one would like to be

My point exactly

in Virginia it was the largest non-hurricane-related power outage in the state's history and I think it was the 3rd largest of all time.

So we can safely say those who went through this will never go though it again? I mean that would make it a once in a generative event, no?

FInd another windstorm since Hurricane Hazel that produced as widespread 65+mph recorded winds across the region.

Sure, other thunderstorms were more severe in particular given locations, but there hasn't been this significant of a wind-event for the entire region since Hazel.

That the three airports all reported around 70 mph peak gust shows how completely unusual this event was.

So I will never experience it again?

[gymengineer]

You have a link for that tree trimming doenst decrease the outage chances?

Of course it does in lesser events, but as wxtrix pointed out, trees weren't really the primary issue here for a grid-wide result like what happened in MoCo, MD. Power went out for more than 2/3 of all residents, and we were driving past entire swaths of tree-trimmed roads that were completely dark.

[TradeWinds]

It's subjective no doubt, and I'll defer to those who have lived in this area longer than I have (4 years). This was my first derecho that I can recall.

My point was that this was unique in that we saw hurricane type damage from what most people would consider to be a strong thunderstorm. At least with a hurricane there is lots of lead time whereas there was comparatively little in this case.

Again, I suppose the term is subjective, depending on how dramatic one would like to be

Does June 2008 count as a derecho or was that just a squall line? Wind wise, that was must worse up here than this past Fri night. Around 70 mph in Frederick and 90 mph gust in Washington County.

[ThePhotoGuy]

because i'm not overly familiar with all of your areas, in PA, most of the fire Dept are volunteers and are relied on heavily. When a storm hits (any season) much of the mess ( trees across raodways etc etc) is cleaned up by them. They spend countless hours assting. Is that common in your areas?

It depends on the area. Some counties are all career, all volunteer, or mixed. In my county it is mixed but it relies heavily on volunteers when storms happen. Both the fire department and the public works clear the roads around my county.