H2O Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 totally agree, i'm baffled by the expectations...outside of people being angry, what could the power companies or government done better given a lead time of a few hours? Clearly the government should have known which trees were going to fall and had them cut down 30 min before it hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhotoGuy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If a "Severe Thunderstorm Watch" was issued at 3 PM or even 12:00, would the public have done anything different? What I believe the answer is no. Most people would have not gone to get milk, bread, or water as they are saying they would have done if they had known about it prior. Would fire departments or police departments brough in more people because of a threat for severe weather? No. Would people still have went out if they would have known severe thunderstorms were "possible"? In most cases people would have still went out. I do not think earlier watches would have done much difference. I have no experience with the power companies on their emergency and contigency plans so I can't comment on that but I do not believe the average citizen would have done anything different. People are so used to hearing "severe thunderstorm watches" and even "severe thunderstorm warnings" and nothing happens at their location. Because of past experiences the average citizen often disregards these watches and warnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 I'm amazed as to how far out of touch people are with what is going on around them. I just don't understand how so many people could have been caught off guard by the storms. We had hours of notice that the derecho was coming. Also, it's somewhat amusing that people are now using derecho in the same light as tornado and hurricane. Clueless people. When there is no forecast of storms in the morning or a 20% chance of them with no indication that there is anything other than a typical summer thunderstorm people are going to tune out especially on a Friday. This event was like 1,000X more damaging than the tornado outbreak at the beginning of the month. I'm actually surprised how people here think the forecasts were good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 but but but the poor utility companies and local gvts didnt have enough time to prepare for this you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mappy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I know -- I wasn't saying you or anyone else here said that. I was just saying that there is only so much you can do in such a severe weather situation, even if you had an extra 2-3 hours to prepare (unlike a hurricane or major winter storm). Make sure you are fully staffed and ready to go? I can understand the inability to call in help from outside states/regions since it was something with a max of 5 hours lead time... but in those 5 hours, you could have had people stationed and ready to go in the areas you know damn well loses power every time there is a breeze. Also, and I know I cannot be the only one who thinks this - but how many times do you see trees over powerlines along the road? Why are those limbs still there? Take the damn time to clean that and fix it when there is no weather to deal with! You would think after Irene last year the utliity companies would go to trouble areas during boring stretches of time and be proactive! Yet they aren't, and yes I know some of that has to do with budget. Its the blame game that annoys me. Stop blaming the NWS and the news for your (general your) lack of attention to the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avdave Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 the power companies aren't great but I'm not sure what more they could have done. this was a situation where they'd need help from other states, and as I understand it, that is facilitated by the declaration of a state of emergency or state of disaster or whatever it is called by the governors. however, that declaration can't be made until after there is actual damage. no one could possibly know which cities or neighborhoods would sustain the most damage. plus, at least here in WV, there are 50 transmission lines down and 30 destroyed substations. randomly parking trucks isn't going to help with that, nor can the power companies do anything about keeping those transmissions lines from falling in high winds. the solution is to fix the entire electrical infrastructure of above ground electric lines, but that's not feasible. and even underground power lines aren't infallible--indeed, the power came back to our above ground power line house in Martinsburg 21 hours before it did to our below ground power line house in Jefferson County. As for declaring a state of emergency, they couldve done that prior to the storms arriving here when they saw what was going on just a short way to the west of the region. I dont beleive the state of emegrency is done by region , it is for the whole state if im not mistaken, so no need to nail down what town or counties would be affected prior to any damage. Its been done before for winter major events too. They could've had the Natl guard out to help out in strategic locations. The power companies could've have placed some trucks at strategic points like a major transfer station/substations. As for blowing transformers, no one can forsee that, I agree with. But like i posted above, there truly is no reason why a major thorofare highway in Northern VA like Rt 50 have no traffic lights working on Day 3 after the storm. I agree with you on the utility lines being buried in the ground but that wont happen in our lifetimes. I mean our lines our buried here but they run off the main circuit and that is above ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 but but but the poor utility companies and local gvts didnt have enough time to prepare for this That *is* what a lot of us are saying. I don't get what exactly you expect the power companies are able to do in 3 hours when they usually have two days or so to gear up for hurricanes. And presumably, you have Dominion power--we MD'ers actually think Dominion gets electricity back on pretty quickly after a massive outage, especially compared to Pepco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I know -- I wasn't saying you or anyone else here said that. I was just saying that there is only so much you can do in such a severe weather situation, even if you had an extra 2-3 hours to prepare (unlike a hurricane or major winter storm). Ok. So then the average Joe shouldn't get pissed that they didn't get enough advance warning(when they did) because this thing would have damaged as much as it anyways. People(not you) are being stupid and lashing out because they think that in the 21st century power outages should never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh noes http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/name-the-washington-dc-derecho-of-june-29/2012/07/02/gJQA5iDBIW_blog.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhotoGuy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint? The police departments should have emergency plans in place and most do by bringing in additional officers or even reserve officers (volunteers) to help man these interesections when their normal officers are not able to handle regular calls and storm related calls at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinwood Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh noes http://www.washingto...iDBIW_blog.html I vote we stop naming things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avdave Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint? To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avdave Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 nope, it has to be done after the fact in order to qualify for assistance: http://www.fema.gov/.../dec_guide.shtm Well then they arent following the rules then., Blizz of 96, Nj declared a state of emergency a few hours into the storm. Way before it got really bad and incicidents were happening. I know some other states have done the same in other situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mappy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go. Any other event, Dave, I would agree with you here but Friday was special in the case that a lot of the regions BGE gets their help from was dealing with their own power issues. BGE has help coming in from Canada, Texas and Florida because their usual "go to guys" are from Ohio, parts of PA, WVA, and other places that were impacted Friday as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhotoGuy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Also, and I know I cannot be the only one who thinks this - but how many times do you see trees over powerlines along the road? Why are those limbs still there? Take the damn time to clean that and fix it when there is no weather to deal with! You would think after Irene last year the utliity companies would go to trouble areas during boring stretches of time and be proactive! Yet they aren't, and yes I know some of that has to do with budget. Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh noes http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/name-the-washington-dc-derecho-of-june-29/2012/07/02/gJQA5iDBIW_blog.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go. I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuddz Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh noes http://www.washingto...iDBIW_blog.html This should be rich... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Ok. So then the average Joe shouldn't get pissed that they didn't get enough advance warning(when they did) because this thing would have damaged as much as it anyways. People(not you) are being stupid and lashing out because they think that in the 21st century power outages should never happen. I agree with this--- so what I don't get is in this thread, there seem to be posters that are saying both that citizens should take repsonsibility for paying attention to warnings and be prepared to be self-sufficient (and therefore, not lash out at government or power companies, right?) and that we should deservedly be upset at the governments and power companies for not having turned on all the lights by now. So should citizens blame others or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mappy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive. Absolutely agreed. My husband works with BGE in some of their electrical line work (he works for an engineering company) he and I were discussing yesterday about how much time/money would it save BGE if they took aerial imagery like LIDAR data to see where problem areas are and then spend the time fixing the areas that are ALWAYS going out every storm. I bet the money spent to be proactive would be cheaper in the end than all the work that is required of BGE after the storm takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avdave Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 That *is* what a lot of us are saying. I don't get what exactly you expect the power companies are able to do in 3 hours when they usually have two days or so to gear up for hurricanes. And presumably, you have Dominion power--we MD'ers actually think Dominion gets electricity back on pretty quickly after a massive outage, especially compared to Pepco. I have said a few times what the power companies can do to prepare better. Instead of fattening their pockets maybe they should be looking at how to prepare for these type of events in a more smart way. Yes I do have DomPow but they are even having a helluva time re connecting everyone. they are usually pretty good. Well PePCo, well they have a terrible record in cases like this. they are just awful. But like mapgirl said, when there is no weather going on they can be out there trimming trees back from the above ground utility wires, that would be a great way to help keep limbs from falling on wires and blowing transformers when storms or just windy events in general happen. How often do you see them out there trimming back trees from the wires above ground? I rarely see them unless it is Asphlundh or whatever the name of that company is and they are contracted out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive. Pepco has been engaging in somewhat controversial and aggressive tree-trimming over the past couple of years, especially in Montgomery County. It seemed to pay off in Irene where we had much, much less long outages than BG&E (along with weaker winds too, so it actually wasn't a fair comparison), but now we see that the trimmings didn't do as much as they were "supposed" to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avdave Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds! Chris, I never said for every TS watch that is issued. It was obvious that this wasnt just going to be another routine Tstorm in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mappy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I agree with this--- so what I don't get is in this thread, there seem to be posters that are saying both that citizens should take repsonsibility for paying attention to warnings and be prepared to be self-sufficient (and therefore, not lash out at government or power companies, right?) and that we should deservedly be upset at the governments and power companies for not having turned on all the lights by now. So should citizens blame others or not? A citizen has the right to be angry at the power companies for taking forever to get the power back on, yet it also goes hand in hand with being proactive before the storm hits. This goes for county/city governments, power companies, and the average citizen - be proactive! Don't wait unil the damn storm hits before deciding to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 My main issue with the lack of lead is just how disproportionate our screaming from the rafters is before events. Everyone was all in a tizzy about a tornado event that basically impacted no one other than being scared. Even in a worst case scenario the impacts of June 1 would have been far less. If we're building a weather ready nation is it really a success story that 5 million people lose power, and people die because they didn't know they shouldnt be outside during those 10 minutes, with 6 hours warning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sauss06 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well then they arent following the rules then., Blizz of 96, Nj declared a state of emergency a few hours into the storm. Way before it got really bad and incicidents were happening. I know some other states have done the same in other situations. PA for sure has declared ahead of time. I think it helps free up resources prior to the event. like the National gaurd etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catoctin wx Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds! Agreed. Plus this was a Friday night in the summer on a day with temps over 100. Chances are these companies needed to keep their people close due to expected power outages from increased demand. We get severe watches all the time and nobody pays attention, so why would companies line up hundreds of workers and trucks, spending tens of thousands of dollars in resources for such a small chance? I've heard that this was such an rare event because these types of systems rarely make it over the mountains. I can't blame the power companies at all for this. It's amazing that they already have crews here from as far away as Canada and New Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Chris, I never said for every TS watch that is issued. It was obvious that this wasnt just going to be another routine Tstorm in the region. Yes I know, look at the effort to mobilize assets in preparation for a hurricane, it takes days...not hours, that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2O Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I think a lot of people are lashing out because PEPCO has proven it can't handle anything over the last few years. that's years of built up enmity. I didn't hear a lot of complaining out here because we don't have PEPCO and the crews were visible early Saturday morning, with the backup help from other states headquartered as of Sunday afternoon at one of the local shopping plazas. the more remote areas are going to take several days for restoration but that's understandable given the amount of work needed to restring individual residences several miles from each other. You are right that rural areas will take longer and that is understandable. I also agree that for years PEPCO has always struggled with events similar to these and that they have yet to come up with a solution. Not to take their side but I also know that they have received backlash when they tried to trim up their lines from people and IMBYism. It would not surprise me that the very same people complaining about this latest power issue were complaining about losing a tree that PEPCO wanted to remove for this very reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freestater Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I was driving through a residential neighborhood when the storm hit. The irony is that I checked DCA's TDWR before going out because the lights were flickering, and the radar image didn't look threatening to me. Now I know all about attenuation and range unfolding. If that had been a movie it would have looked unrealistic. There were flashes all over the horizon, almost once a second, from either transformers or lightning. When the wind hit it was like being inside a snow globe of sticks and leaves. I could hear trees breaking with the windows up. I had to drive through two front lawns to get around fallen trees that were blocking the road. Black locusts faired worst, their wood is too hard to flex in wind that high, many of them snapped right in half. The top of this tree landed about 25 yards from the base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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