Late June 2012 storms

[H2O]

I see I am in the minority here, so I'll stop. Hope those withy power get it back soon

Nope. I agree with you. People saying they were caught unprepared is crud. What trixie said about warning fatigue is the point I made yesterday with Ian. People I think are choosing to pay attention occasionally instead of really reading and noting how different this one was. The wording was there saying that winds were beyond ridiculous with this system.

There was plenty of notice given beforehand.

[mappy]

Some stories are out there that people were surprised by it all, so yes Ive been hearing stories. As for the power companies, well they just suck in general no matter what the situation is. If they got plenty of warning they would find another excuse as to why they werent ready for the event. I wont even get into the govt situation, Lets keep politics out of this conversation. The power companies still had 4-5 hours to get ready for this event and they still failed. I have no faith in utility companies, they will ALWAYS have an excuse as to why they werent prepared

Agreed x a million

A lot my frustration comes from those who are putting blame elsewhere when they only have themselves to blame. People weren't paying attention, officials weren't paying attention and therefore were caught off guard and hence were unprepared. It has nothing to do with not enough warning, lead time, heads up, etc. That was all there.

[Derecho!]

I'm the same Derecho from WWBB/Eastern - I was really busy when Americanwx went on-line and didn't log in for months - found that plain Derecho had been taken (by a pro met?) who I never see post.

[Avdave]

Nope. I agree with you. People saying they were caught unprepared is crud. What trixie said about warning fatigue is the point I made yesterday with Ian. People I think are choosing to pay attention occasionally instead of really reading and noting how different this one was. The wording was there saying that winds were beyond ridiculous with this system.

There was plenty of notice given beforehand.

but but but the poor utility companies and local gvts didnt have enough time to prepare for this

[dan11295]

On the power side of things, as I mentioned above, this wasn't a hurricane where you could pre-position crews from outside the impact area. Only so much a power company can do in that situation.

As far as warning for the event itself, long lead time forecasts for derechos are somewhat difficult as their spatial coverage, longevity, path path can be hard to pin down. Perhaps SPC could have had a High Risk for wind, triggering PDS SVR T-Storm Watches. Thats about the only thing they could have done which would have had any impact on the public. Even then the public generally ignores Severe Thunderstorm Watches. With the warnings, this of course was different then a "normal" severe storm, where only a small portion of the area gets the storm. The warning that Trix showed on the last page doesn't strike me as having any special wording. Really need wording about a "widespread event" at the minimum at least I would think.

[CheesyPoofs]

Not once did I say trees shouldnt have fallen or power not gone out.

I know -- I wasn't saying you or anyone else here said that. I was just saying that there is only so much you can do in such a severe weather situation, even if you have an extra 2-3 hours to prepare (unlike a hurricane or major winter storm).

[Derecho!]

the solution is to fix the entire electrical infrastructure of above ground electric lines, but that's not feasible. and even underground power lines aren't infallible--indeed, the power came back to our above ground power line house in Martinsburg 21 hours before it did to our below ground power line house in Jefferson County.

I'm baffled by the long outages in areas with below ground power and major infrastructure, that have been built fairly recently - my place of work (without power) is a new 11 story office building in the Mark Center.

[H2O]

totally agree, i'm baffled by the expectations...outside of people being angry, what could the power companies or government done better given a lead time of a few hours?

Clearly the government should have known which trees were going to fall and had them cut down 30 min before it hit.

[ThePhotoGuy]

If a "Severe Thunderstorm Watch" was issued at 3 PM or even 12:00, would the public have done anything different? What I believe the answer is no. Most people would have not gone to get milk, bread, or water as they are saying they would have done if they had known about it prior. Would fire departments or police departments brough in more people because of a threat for severe weather? No. Would people still have went out if they would have known severe thunderstorms were "possible"? In most cases people would have still went out.

I do not think earlier watches would have done much difference. I have no experience with the power companies on their emergency and contigency plans so I can't comment on that but I do not believe the average citizen would have done anything different. People are so used to hearing "severe thunderstorm watches" and even "severe thunderstorm warnings" and nothing happens at their location. Because of past experiences the average citizen often disregards these watches and warnings.

[Ian]

I'm amazed as to how far out of touch people are with what is going on around them. I just don't understand how so many people could have been caught off guard by the storms. We had hours of notice that the derecho was coming. Also, it's somewhat amusing that people are now using derecho in the same light as tornado and hurricane. Clueless people.

When there is no forecast of storms in the morning or a 20% chance of them with no indication that there is anything other than a typical summer thunderstorm people are going to tune out especially on a Friday. This event was like 1,000X more damaging than the tornado outbreak at the beginning of the month. I'm actually surprised how people here think the forecasts were good.

[chris87]

but but but the poor utility companies and local gvts didnt have enough time to prepare for this

you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint?

[mappy]

I know -- I wasn't saying you or anyone else here said that. I was just saying that there is only so much you can do in such a severe weather situation, even if you had an extra 2-3 hours to prepare (unlike a hurricane or major winter storm).

Make sure you are fully staffed and ready to go? I can understand the inability to call in help from outside states/regions since it was something with a max of 5 hours lead time... but in those 5 hours, you could have had people stationed and ready to go in the areas you know damn well loses power every time there is a breeze.

Also, and I know I cannot be the only one who thinks this - but how many times do you see trees over powerlines along the road? Why are those limbs still there? Take the damn time to clean that and fix it when there is no weather to deal with! You would think after Irene last year the utliity companies would go to trouble areas during boring stretches of time and be proactive! Yet they aren't, and yes I know some of that has to do with budget.

Its the blame game that annoys me. Stop blaming the NWS and the news for your (general your) lack of attention to the situation.

[Avdave]

the power companies aren't great but I'm not sure what more they could have done. this was a situation where they'd need help from other states, and as I understand it, that is facilitated by the declaration of a state of emergency or state of disaster or whatever it is called by the governors. however, that declaration can't be made until after there is actual damage. no one could possibly know which cities or neighborhoods would sustain the most damage.

plus, at least here in WV, there are 50 transmission lines down and 30 destroyed substations. randomly parking trucks isn't going to help with that, nor can the power companies do anything about keeping those transmissions lines from falling in high winds.

the solution is to fix the entire electrical infrastructure of above ground electric lines, but that's not feasible. and even underground power lines aren't infallible--indeed, the power came back to our above ground power line house in Martinsburg 21 hours before it did to our below ground power line house in Jefferson County.

As for declaring a state of emergency, they couldve done that prior to the storms arriving here when they saw what was going on just a short way to the west of the region. I dont beleive the state of emegrency is done by region , it is for the whole state if im not mistaken, so no need to nail down what town or counties would be affected prior to any damage. Its been done before for winter major events too. They could've had the Natl guard out to help out in strategic locations.

The power companies could've have placed some trucks at strategic points like a major transfer station/substations. As for blowing transformers, no one can forsee that, I agree with. But like i posted above, there truly is no reason why a major thorofare highway in Northern VA like Rt 50 have no traffic lights working on Day 3 after the storm. I agree with you on the utility lines being buried in the ground but that wont happen in our lifetimes. I mean our lines our buried here but they run off the main circuit and that is above ground.

[gymengineer]

but but but the poor utility companies and local gvts didnt have enough time to prepare for this

That *is* what a lot of us are saying. I don't get what exactly you expect the power companies are able to do in 3 hours when they usually have two days or so to gear up for hurricanes. And presumably, you have Dominion power--we MD'ers actually think Dominion gets electricity back on pretty quickly after a massive outage, especially compared to Pepco.

[H2O]

I know -- I wasn't saying you or anyone else here said that. I was just saying that there is only so much you can do in such a severe weather situation, even if you had an extra 2-3 hours to prepare (unlike a hurricane or major winter storm).

Ok. So then the average Joe shouldn't get pissed that they didn't get enough advance warning(when they did) because this thing would have damaged as much as it anyways. People(not you) are being stupid and lashing out because they think that in the 21st century power outages should never happen.

[Ian]

oh noes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/name-the-washington-dc-derecho-of-june-29/2012/07/02/gJQA5iDBIW_blog.html

[ThePhotoGuy]

you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint?

The police departments should have emergency plans in place and most do by bringing in additional officers or even reserve officers (volunteers) to help man these interesections when their normal officers are not able to handle regular calls and storm related calls at the same time.

[Ellinwood]

oh noes

http://www.washingto...iDBIW_blog.html

I vote we stop naming things.

[Avdave]

you can hold them accountable for how they response to a situation, for instance I was baffled driving around yesterday at a complete lack of police in certain intersections that did not have power, but really what would you recommend had been done from a preparation standpoint?

To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go.

[Avdave]

nope, it has to be done after the fact in order to qualify for assistance: http://www.fema.gov/.../dec_guide.shtm

Well then they arent following the rules then., Blizz of 96, Nj declared a state of emergency a few hours into the storm. Way before it got really bad and incicidents were happening. I know some other states have done the same in other situations.

[mappy]

To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go.

Any other event, Dave, I would agree with you here but Friday was special in the case that a lot of the regions BGE gets their help from was dealing with their own power issues. BGE has help coming in from Canada, Texas and Florida because their usual "go to guys" are from Ohio, parts of PA, WVA, and other places that were impacted Friday as well.

[ThePhotoGuy]

Also, and I know I cannot be the only one who thinks this - but how many times do you see trees over powerlines along the road? Why are those limbs still there? Take the damn time to clean that and fix it when there is no weather to deal with! You would think after Irene last year the utliity companies would go to trouble areas during boring stretches of time and be proactive! Yet they aren't, and yes I know some of that has to do with budget.

Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive.

[H2O]

oh noes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/name-the-washington-dc-derecho-of-june-29/2012/07/02/gJQA5iDBIW_blog.html

[chris87]

To comment on the lack of authorities at intersections, especially busy ones, that what you have the Natl Guard for. If the state is declared a state of emergency it mobilizes the Natl guard. They are there to use to help in the recovery effort. For example with what utility companies can do to be more prepared, Maryland is a decent size state, they perhaps could have pulled from other areas of the state to be located in Baltimore to be ready to go if those areas of the state isnt going to be affected. One thing about the mid atlantic outside of VA, it doesnt long to get help into a region. Pa is 60 mins away from Baltimore, Couldve had trucks come down to Baltimore to assist and be ready to go.

I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds!

[Scuddz]

oh noes

http://www.washingto...iDBIW_blog.html

This should be rich...

[gymengineer]

Ok. So then the average Joe shouldn't get pissed that they didn't get enough advance warning(when they did) because this thing would have damaged as much as it anyways. People(not you) are being stupid and lashing out because they think that in the 21st century power outages should never happen.

I agree with this--- so what I don't get is in this thread, there seem to be posters that are saying both that citizens should take repsonsibility for paying attention to warnings and be prepared to be self-sufficient (and therefore, not lash out at government or power companies, right?) and that we should deservedly be upset at the governments and power companies for not having turned on all the lights by now.

So should citizens blame others or not?

[mappy]

Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive.

Absolutely agreed. My husband works with BGE in some of their electrical line work (he works for an engineering company) he and I were discussing yesterday about how much time/money would it save BGE if they took aerial imagery like LIDAR data to see where problem areas are and then spend the time fixing the areas that are ALWAYS going out every storm.

I bet the money spent to be proactive would be cheaper in the end than all the work that is required of BGE after the storm takes place.

[Avdave]

That *is* what a lot of us are saying. I don't get what exactly you expect the power companies are able to do in 3 hours when they usually have two days or so to gear up for hurricanes. And presumably, you have Dominion power--we MD'ers actually think Dominion gets electricity back on pretty quickly after a massive outage, especially compared to Pepco.

I have said a few times what the power companies can do to prepare better. Instead of fattening their pockets maybe they should be looking at how to prepare for these type of events in a more smart way. Yes I do have DomPow but they are even having a helluva time re connecting everyone. they are usually pretty good. Well PePCo, well they have a terrible record in cases like this. they are just awful. But like mapgirl said, when there is no weather going on they can be out there trimming trees back from the above ground utility wires, that would be a great way to help keep limbs from falling on wires and blowing transformers when storms or just windy events in general happen. How often do you see them out there trimming back trees from the wires above ground? I rarely see them unless it is Asphlundh or whatever the name of that company is and they are contracted out.

[gymengineer]

Agree 100%. The power companies need to step up and start cutting down these trees and limbs when they are getting close to the power lines. I was having this same conversation with my grandmother yesterday. People say it costs so much money to cut the trees down but how much does it cost to repair all these power lines and to put new ones up after each storm? The power companies need to be more proactive then reactive.

Pepco has been engaging in somewhat controversial and aggressive tree-trimming over the past couple of years, especially in Montgomery County. It seemed to pay off in Irene where we had much, much less long outages than BG&E (along with weaker winds too, so it actually wasn't a fair comparison), but now we see that the trimmings didn't do as much as they were "supposed" to do.

[Avdave]

I think people think its easy to just "mobilize" assets from other power companies...these people who work for other power companies work a normal day and then I guess we should expect them to just drive to the PA/MD border every time there's a ST Watch in case DC needs them...don't you see how ridiculous that sounds!

Chris,

I never said for every TS watch that is issued. It was obvious that this wasnt just going to be another routine Tstorm in the region.