CoastalWx Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 In general I do believe the valley is more prone to tornadoes than the Berks, but it's important to consider that the tornado intensified as it moved east into hilly terrain. Similarly the Worcester tornado scoffed at the relief. On the rare occasions we find ourselves with severe parameters reminiscent of the plains, the topography may play a role (especially in initiation), but it's importance may diminish once we get rolling. Yeah the cell got going, but look at those 600-700' vertical hills it crossed over. Just did not care. That tells you how mature it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Yeah the cell got going, but look at those 600-700' vertical hills it crossed over. Just did not care. That tells you how mature it was. That thing missed me by 22 miles to the north..Do you think if it had formed say over HFD..would it have survived the trip to the NE Hills in CT.. There are some 1,000 foot hils in Brimfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guvna Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Thanks for sharing, yeah you're correct. For simplicity sake I called the two that descended into the valley 1 and 2 but you are right. Do you have any theroies why the NoHo storm didn't go tornadic but the one in Springfield did? Seems to me the locally backed flow and the possible interaction with an outflow boundary was able to tip the scales. It seemed to me that the North storm was choked off from the Southern storm....transferring all the ingredients to the tornadic storm. When you look at the radar, at times it seemed like dual tornadoes were on the ground just North/South of each other, but the Northern storm got choked out from inflow.....just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 In general I do believe the valley is more prone to tornadoes than the Berks, but it's important to consider that the tornado intensified as it moved east into hilly terrain. Similarly the Worcester tornado scoffed at the relief. On the rare occasions we find ourselves with severe parameters reminiscent of the plains, the topography may play a role (especially in initiation), but it's importance may diminish once we get rolling. Absolutely agree. It appears that the valleys with channeled flow are important for sig tornadogenesis in these parts. Depending on the storm the tornado can have no problem traveling over hills if conditions are right. The Great Barrington tornado was not able to maintain the tornado over the Taconics or the Berkshires. The tornado started in the Hudson River... lifted over the Taconics... then tornadogenesis occurred again in the Housatonic River valley before lifting again east of Great Barrington. You are correct about higher theta-e air in the valley. That's been fairly well documented in these tornadic cases and I touched on that in the paper. I imagine the backed flow is more important than the higher theta-e air but it certainly doesn't hurt lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 It seemed to me that the North storm was choked off from the Southern storm....transferring all the ingredients to the tornadic storm. When you look at the radar, at times it seemed like dual tornadoes were on the ground just North/South of each other, but the Northern storm got choked out from inflow.....just my 2 cents Yeah that did happen eventually but that doesn't answer the original question of why didn't we see tornadogenesis near Northampton (prior to storm 2). Eventually the Northampton storm died as the inflow was choked off as you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I was wondering if the topography mattered at all... topography plays a big roll around here initiating tornadoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Love the gravity wave clouds prior to this tornado, Joplin etc. Neat interactions and some great research being done on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 One thing to remember with the supercell that developed just west of Springfield was the best instability in place right around that time was not over that area but to the south and west across northern CT and eastern NY. Since that supercell was all alone with nothing to inhibit the inflow from the SW it was just drawing in that extreme instability that was in place over northern CT. I believe there was as much as 4500-5000 J/KG of SBcape across northern CT and just ahead of the supercell right around 20z and LI values were like -7C to -9C. Speaking of the topography it does play a significant factor for us. With sfc winds more SE that afternoon and llvl shear quite strong the llvl helicity was vastly increased right through the CT River valley and that also lead to the storm taking off near Springfield. I even think the helicity on the meso page was probably udnerdone a tad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 One thing to remember with the supercell that developed just west of Springfield was the best instability in place right around that time was not over that area but to the south and west across northern CT and eastern NY. Since that supercell was all alone with nothing to inhibit the inflow from the SW it was just drawing in that extreme instability that was in place over northern CT. I believe there was as much as 4500-5000 J/KG of SBcape across northern CT and just ahead of the supercell right around 20z and LI values were like -7C to -9C. Speaking of the topography it does play a significant factor for us. With sfc winds more SE that afternoon and llvl shear quite strong the llvl helicity was vastly increased right through the CT River valley and that also lead to the storm taking off near Springfield. I even think the helicity on the meso page was probably udnerdone a tad. what was the final score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Awesome paper, Ryan! Great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 what was the final score? We lost...8-3 or 10-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ineedsnow Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 The noho storm was the one i went to go see first trees bending sideways and hail big enough to crack my windshield never in my life did i expect to see 2 of the top 3 storms 30 minutes from each other an amazing day ill never forget. When I got to west springfield on 91 and saw the sky I was thinking to myself ive never seen anything like it then the tornado warning sounded on the radio and i was looking all around and it just ended up being in front of me me lol The springfield storm and noho storm have to be linked somehow Thanks for sharing, yeah you're correct. For simplicity sake I called the two that descended into the valley 1 and 2 but you are right. Do you have any theroies why the NoHo storm didn't go tornadic but the one in Springfield did? Seems to me the locally backed flow and the possible interaction with an outflow boundary was able to tip the scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 That thing missed me by 22 miles to the north..Do you think if it had formed say over HFD..would it have survived the trip to the NE Hills in CT.. There are some 1,000 foot hils in Brimfield Bump for Scooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Bump for Scooter It's tough to guess on that because no two tornadoes and how they originate are alike. I suppose if the same exact conditions existed in HFD, it probably would have made it into the hills to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Chronicle had a nice piece about the area 1 yr later. Man some of the pics are jaw dropping...just nothing left but brown Earth in some spots. FEMA/MEMA seem to be up to the usual bureaucratic bullsh*t. People had some issues with them. I wanted to see this on the air date, but missed it. However, have found the segments on YouTube... http://www.wcvb.com/...n1/-/index.html http://www.wcvb.com/...6a/-/index.html There's about a 2-3 minute blank spot in the middle of the first video...probably where the commercials were when it aired. Very good job. LOVED the story about Toto the Tornado Kitten (sweet looking!!). Want to get the book as a souvenir. Also want to talk to the lady in Brimfield that is chronicaling her story. She got a NOAA Weather Radio!!! --Turtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 topography plays a big roll around here initiating tornadoes. I figured, I was also wondering if it specifically altered how the northern cell did not become a tornado, or if it was more an energy channel thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I figured, I was also wondering if it specifically altered how the northern cell did not become a tornado, or if it was more an energy channel thing... I think one factor was how there was convection to the south and west of that cell and that may have altered the inflow to the storm...instead of drawing in unstable air it was drawing in more rain cooled air which would have kept the cell from reaching it's full intensity. There are likely several different factors though that played a roll as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I took a spin through Brimfield to check out te damage. Even almost 1 yr later it's pretty awe Inspiring. It's starts on rt 20 just as you head into Brimfield. It went right over the road as it headed east. Houses were definitely being rebuilt all around with a lot of debris in the form of some metal and trash still around. I took a left on Holland Rd and passed the famous auto body shop that got totaled. The whole area is gone...not even any new Green growth. The auto body shop is rebuilt with other houses rebuilt as well, but as far as you can see....just stuff ripped up everywhere. I think way amazed me was how it tore up the hill sides right down to the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 I took a spin through Brimfield to check out te damage. Even almost 1 yr later it's pretty awe Inspiring. It's starts on rt 20 just as you head into Brimfield. It went right over the road as it headed east. Houses were definitely being rebuilt all around with a lot of debris in the form of some metal and trash still around. I took a left on Holland Rd and passed the famous auto body shop that got totaled. The whole area is gone...not even any new Green growth. The auto body shop is rebuilt with other houses rebuilt as well, but as far as you can see....just stuff ripped up everywhere. I think way amazed me was how it tore up the hill sides right down to the earth. That's the area I walked all over 2 days afterwards. I parked on the end of Holland rd..and set out on foot. I think part of that area is near 1,000 feet. I walked onto the campground where the one woman died..wild, wild damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloudsncontrails Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Those of us that went there and surveyed the damage agree it was an ef4 regardless of what it was filed as. Regarding the damage assessment I'll gladly yield to the professionals and am willing to bet that EF-3 damage here would look like EF-4 pictures we are used to seeing out of the MidWest. Turtle made a great point, structures here are not designed to withstand violent tornadoes. It doesn't take too much to make a high end EF-3 look like an EF-4 here. At the end of the day does it really matter? It was an historic day for SNE regardless of the EF rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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