How Little for Philly

[mcwx]

did some yard work over the weekend, edging and digging, IMBY soil clay combo very wet.

.6 that fell saturday caused more water sitting not absorbing.

maybe its just me but i have a very soggy area.

I'm in the same boat. It's not until the trees wake up and really start to suck up water that my backyard dries out.

[BucksCO_PA]

the link below provides the PA drought status back to NOV 1980, Drought Emergencies have been issued during 8 of those yrs so roughly you're looking at mean of once every 4 yrs, based on those historical maps PA hasn't had a Drought Emergency issued since NOV 2002 so we're long overdue for a significant dry spell

http://www.portal.st...D=554262&mode=2

just for a frame of reference this is a serious drought

[Grothar]

Can't be a drought busting rain, when there is no drought to bust. You really need to stop, don't you notice you don't have one shred of credibility left, and not one person in this subforum takes you seriously?

The same credibility as Irene last year? I will stop posting about the potential for a drought even though I do not see you guys equally beating up on Steve and why not? I will sit back and just liste. By the way, I have a Physical Geography degree with a Geology minor and 30 years experience in groundwater, municipal urban planning and so many other certificates it would make your head spin. So smokeater, who is credible now? By the way, while you were in diapers, I was doing papers on groundwater aquifers in college.

For Bucks CoPA-- Please notice the graph you posted is falling not rising like it should be . Even though it groundwater levels are still at the median, the fact that the line is falling rapidly and instead of rising is the concern. I never said that were in a surface water drought warning- only heading in that direction. And yes I would agree with you that 2002 was much worse at this time of the year- but here in Lehigh County there has been a tremendous amount of urban growth including some heavy duty industrial water users which were not here in 2002. One must take a wait and see approach but only two years ago we were under a drought emergency here because Lehigh County Authority could not supply enough water to its existing customers. The map below is for groundwater only. PADEP and the USGS see things differently just like DRBC and your local municipal water supplier. I tend to rely on the USGS statuses rather the PADEP since PADEP utilizes USGS data in making their status calls. Posting a PADEP drought map frankly in IMHO is worthless- please rely on USGS drought status mapping. Its like PADEP is the Canadian model for area and the the USGS model is the Euro- whom would you trust?

Map created on: Monday, April 02, 2012

Groundwater status is indicated by color of symbol

Current drought declaration status is indicated by color of county

[Grothar]

did some yard work over the weekend, edging and digging, IMBY soil clay combo very wet.

.6 that fell saturday caused more water sitting not absorbing.

maybe its just me but i have a very soggy area.

I am sorry your soils are still wet. I posted this in Tombos thread some time ago. This may explain why your soils are still wet:

Posted by Grothar on 13 March 2012 - 12:15 PM in Philadelphia Region

As far as the drought comments, I agree with the soil litter comments. However I absolutely disagree with the water table and ground water comments. The groundwater tables are down considerably in Eastern PA.. Southern NJ is a different story with their sandy soils. Anyway, the base flows in the creeks in the Lehigh Valley are actually below normal based on the limestone geology for this time of the year, which is found in many parts of Eastern PA. Base flow is not the same as runoff flow. The shale geology in PA and NJ is not as bad but it is getting there too. Many people think that just because the first six inches to a foot of topsoil is saturated, that it means that we are not in a drought. Many of the commentators on this site say the ground is still saturated in their yard. The reason for this is either they are near or in a wetland, they have hydric or hydric component soils in the yard, or they have a distinct fragipan layer in their soil. Hydric or hydric component soil types are usually found in or near wetlands. But many times when homes are built especially in the 50's - 70's the developer would mix in these type of soils within your normal topsoil just to get rid of them or because they ran out of clean topsoil when final grading the property. Then the yard would not drain properly and the homeowner would get storm water runoff directed toward the homes foundation or standing water in the yard. Lastly a fragipan will act just like Hydric soils in many instances. see links

http://www.greenwash.../wet-homes.html

http://www.water-res...er/fragipan.pdf

http://www.google.co...o/basic_int/run

[LMolineuxLM1]

I am sorry your soils are still wet. I posted this in Tombos thread some time ago. This may explain why your soils are still wet:

Posted by Grothar on 13 March 2012 - 12:15 PM in Philadelphia Region

As far as the drought comments, I agree with the soil litter comments. However I absolutely disagree with the water table and ground water comments. The groundwater tables are down considerably in Eastern PA.. Southern NJ is a different story with their sandy soils. Anyway, the base flows in the creeks in the Lehigh Valley are actually below normal based on the limestone geology for this time of the year, which is found in many parts of Eastern PA. Base flow is not the same as runoff flow. The shale geology in PA and NJ is not as bad but it is getting there too. Many people think that just because the first six inches to a foot of topsoil is saturated, that it means that we are not in a drought. Many of the commentators on this site say the ground is still saturated in their yard. The reason for this is either they are near or in a wetland, they have hydric or hydric component soils in the yard, or they have a distinct fragipan layer in their soil. Hydric or hydric component soil types are usually found in or near wetlands. But many times when homes are built especially in the 50's - 70's the developer would mix in these type of soils within your normal topsoil just to get rid of them or because they ran out of clean topsoil when final grading the property. Then the yard would not drain properly and the homeowner would get storm water runoff directed toward the homes foundation or standing water in the yard. Lastly a fragipan will act just like Hydric soils in many instances. see links

http://www.greenwash.../wet-homes.html

http://www.water-res...er/fragipan.pdf

http://www.google.co...o/basic_int/run

Look do us all a big favor and just STFU. Thank you, we had enough of your twisting and turning, your wrong and just admit it, how many things have proven you wrong so far and your just ignoring it. The truth hurts man just swallow it and move on. If you have a problem turn your outside hose on and run around the yard playing with it.

[famartin]

The Davis Vantage Pro2 tipping bucket back home says 5.80".

Meanwhile, the 4" manual CoCoRaHS gage 2 feet away from the Davis has measured 6.68".

Take your pick.

[Quakertown needs snow]

I am sorry your soils are still wet.

No reason to be sorry. Grass loves it!

[iceman56]

I'm tilling gardens these days and the soil is thoroughly damp but very workable. Most years I can't

work certain beds until later in April or even May. This year everything is in play since there hasn't

been any heavy rain in a long time. I put my Davis online Feb. 26th and have had 2.21" since.

Maybe the Euro's right and we see something develop out of that eastern trough next week...

[Boch23]

Well to be fair even the guy that says the world will end today will be right eventually.

[greg ralls]

We definitely had a dry 1st quarter of 2012, but hey - April is above normal so far, so I'm not worried.

[tombo82685]

Look do us all a big favor and just STFU. Thank you, we had enough of your twisting and turning, your wrong and just admit it, how many things have proven you wrong so far and your just ignoring it. The truth hurts man just swallow it and move on. If you have a problem turn your outside hose on and run around the yard playing with it.

Grothar is completely right about the soils and frajipans

[Allsnow]

Grothar is completely right about the soils and frajipans

Oh snap lou

[tombo82685]

Oh snap lou

[Isotherm]

1.45" in March here in Monmouth County. YTD is 5.85". It's been dry, but the grass is very green and we've had enough water to manage. If the well below avg precip pattern continues through May, then we might start having problems.

[Sunny and Warm]

It's dry but not drought-busting, zomg the world's going to end dry.

Most places are running 50-70% of normal YTD, which is not terrible. We're in better shape than SNE (which didn't get the buckets of rain in September we got) and has been running around 40-50% since December 1st.

http://philadelphiaw...e-dry-data.html

I stated a steady, moderate rain wouldn't be a bad thing about now to help farmers and ag interests with surface soil but we sure as s*t don't need another August.

Even though we had the wettest year on record last year half of that rain fell in about seven weeks...the rest of the year was much, much closer to average and in fact we were bitching about the dry summer we had. I blame whoever the f didn't stop the rain dance in August once the floodgates opened.

umm, sorry about that guys. I was in a giddy mood during that time period. Promise it won't happen again.

[Sunny and Warm]

The Davis Vantage Pro2 tipping bucket back home says 5.80".

Meanwhile, the 4" manual CoCoRaHS gage 2 feet away from the Davis has measured 6.68".

Take your pick.

well, as we all know, some rain bands have sharp cutoffs. Your's appears to be sharper than most.

[Sunny and Warm]

For Bucks CoPA-- Please notice the graph you posted is falling not rising like it should be . Even though it groundwater levels are still at the median, the fact that the line is falling rapidly and instead of rising is the concern. I never said that were in a surface water drought warning- only heading in that direction. And yes I would agree with you that 2002 was much worse at this time of the year- but here in Lehigh County there has been a tremendous amount of urban growth including some heavy duty industrial water users which were not here in 2002. One must take a wait and see approach but only two years ago we were under a drought emergency here because Lehigh County Authority could not supply enough water to its existing customers. The map below is for groundwater only. PADEP and the USGS see things differently just like DRBC and your local municipal water supplier. I tend to rely on the USGS statuses rather the PADEP since PADEP utilizes USGS data in making their status calls. Posting a PADEP drought map frankly in IMHO is worthless- please rely on USGS drought status mapping. Its like PADEP is the Canadian model for area and the the USGS model is the Euro- whom would you trust?

Your note about the Lehigh County Authority is disingenuous at best. Here is the reason for the declaration, and it had nothing to do with a drought. This was in 2009 and was published by the Authority:

"Beginning today, Lehigh County Authority has instituted water restrictions on customers in its Central Lehigh Division. The mandatory restrictions on nonessential water uses include a ban on such activities as lawn watering, swimming pool filling and car washing, affect roughly 40,000 people, mostly in Lower Macungie and Upper Macungie townships.

The measures are being taken due to “unanticipated delays in the completion of water supply projects, primarily the expansion of two existing wells in our region.” They had hoped to complete the projects by late spring, construction timelines are now reaching into the summer months."

It would be helpful if you posted information that actually supported your position. I was 1/4 mile from your house and along the Little Lehigh this past Monday. The water in the River had only recently receded to bank full! The basement has finally dried out after six months of wetness and a full sump pit. The soil is moist, yet workable. Call me when we reach 1998 scarcity.

[Grothar]

Your note about the Lehigh County Authority is disingenuous at best. Here is the reason for the declaration, and it had nothing to do with a drought. This was in 2009 and was published by the Authority:

"Beginning today, Lehigh County Authority has instituted water restrictions on customers in its Central Lehigh Division. The mandatory restrictions on nonessential water uses include a ban on such activities as lawn watering, swimming pool filling and car washing, affect roughly 40,000 people, mostly in Lower Macungie and Upper Macungie townships.

The measures are being taken due to “unanticipated delays in the completion of water supply projects, primarily the expansion of two existing wells in our region.” They had hoped to complete the projects by late spring, construction timelines are now reaching into the summer months."

It would be helpful if you posted information that actually supported your position. I was 1/4 mile from your house and along the Little Lehigh this past Monday. The water in the River had only recently receded to bank full! The basement has finally dried out after six months of wetness and a full sump pit. The soil is moist, yet workable. Call me when we reach 1998 scarcity.

I am sorry but you apparently do not even know the definition of a drought emergency. LCA placed restrictions on the our central division residents in order to have an ample supply of water for the industrial water users. This situation was declared a drought emergency because this was the only way to properly restrict water usage. This was LCA's excuse to restrict water because it was truly political in nature. I know because I am the one of those who helped instigate this drought emergency situation because LCA wanted to place to high yielding wells right next to the creek to prevent themselves from having to purchase water from Allentown to serve their industrial users. I served on the LMT planning commission at the time.

As far as bank full, you being further downstream for a 1/4 mile is hogwash. The stream base flow is below bank full and has been for several weeks. I actually live on the creek, so please do not give give me any sh*&. You would not base flow vs bank flow being a casual observer. The ancient oaks floodplain is dried out and not submerged during this time of the year--- the first time since 2002. The township actually mowed it last week. I believe I have posted enough already information in this thread as well as others to back up my position. I am sorry you basement has been pumped for six months but it only goes to prove my point that once your basement became dry and your sump well dried up, your groundwater table below you house is now below the base flow of the stream.

[Sunny and Warm]

I am sorry but you apparently do not even know the definition of a drought emergency. LCA placed restrictions on the our central division residents in order to have an ample supply of water for the industrial water users. This situation was declared a drought emergency because this was the only way to properly restrict water usage. This was LCA's excuse to restrict water because it was truly political in nature. I know because I am the one of those who helped instigate this drought emergency situation because LCA wanted to place to high yielding wells right next to the creek to prevent themselves from having to purchase water from Allentown to serve their industrial users. I served on the LMT planning commission at the time.

As far as bank full, you being further downstream for a 1/4 mile is hogwash. The stream base flow is below bank full and has been for several weeks. I actually live on the creek, so please do not give give me any sh*&. You would not base flow vs bank flow being a casual observer. The ancient oaks floodplain is dried out and not submerged during this time of the year--- the first time since 2002. The township actually mowed it last week. I believe I have posted enough already information in this thread as well as others to back up my position. I am sorry you basement has been pumped for six months but it only goes to prove my point that once your basement became dry and your sump well dried up, your groundwater table below you house is now below the base flow of the stream.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. LCA's restriction was NOT a drought emergency in any way, shape, or form. Period. End of sentence. Anything else from you on this matter is hogwash.

Further, I do not recall what being on the LMT planning commission had to do with the LCA restriction. LMT planning commission is an arm of LMT (Lower Macungie Township) and has no authority other than planning. Please explain what the LMT Planning commission's interface with the LCA was??

My house is on the Little Lehigh a 1/4 mile upstream from you, so don't give me any sh&t either. My basement has NOT been pumped for six months. My sump is not completely dry, but is close to being dry. Until last summer, my sump pit had no water in it for six years. What all this means is that the water table is approx 10 feet underground in our area. In my 15 years of experience in the area, that is a rarity on the HIGH side. The ground table is normally more underground than that.

[Grothar]

sorry for the confusion. The LCA wells expansions were considered a land development. They had to receive conditional use approval. Too long of an explanation but the planners and commissioners were concerned the local residential wells would dry up and the stream would dry up near East Texas as happened in the late 60's

[SmokeEater]

Red Flag Warning

URGENT - FIRE WEATHER MESSAGE

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MOUNT HOLLY NJ

349 AM EDT SAT APR 7 2012

NJZ001-007>010-012>027-PAZ054-055-060>062-067>071-080000-

/O.NEW.KPHI.FW.A.0005.120408T1400Z-120409T0000Z/

/O.CON.KPHI.FW.W.0005.120407T1400Z-120408T0000Z/

SUSSEX-WARREN-MORRIS-HUNTERDON-SOMERSET-MIDDLESEX-

WESTERN MONMOUTH-EASTERN MONMOUTH-MERCER-SALEM-GLOUCESTER-CAMDEN-

NORTHWESTERN BURLINGTON-OCEAN-CUMBERLAND-ATLANTIC-CAPE MAY-

ATLANTIC COASTAL CAPE MAY-COASTAL ATLANTIC-COASTAL OCEAN-

SOUTHEASTERN BURLINGTON-CARBON-MONROE-BERKS-LEHIGH-NORTHAMPTON-

CHESTER-MONTGOMERY-BUCKS-DELAWARE-PHILADELPHIA-

349 AM EDT SAT APR 7 2012

...RED FLAG WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM THIS MORNING TO

8 PM EDT THIS EVENING...

...FIRE WEATHER WATCH IN EFFECT FROM SUNDAY MORNING THROUGH

SUNDAY EVENING...

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN MOUNT HOLLY MAINTAINS THE RED FLAG

WARNING FOR TODAY...WHICH IS IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM THIS MORNING TO 8 PM

EDT THIS EVENING. THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN MOUNT HOLLY ALSO

HAS ISSUED A FIRE WEATHER WATCH FOR SUNDAY...WHICH IS IN EFFECT

FROM SUNDAY MORNING THROUGH SUNDAY EVENING.

* AFFECTED AREA...EASTERN PENNSYLVANIA AND NEW JERSEY.

* WINDS...NORTHWEST 15 TO 25 MPH WITH GUSTS UP TO 30 MPH.

* RELATIVE HUMIDITY...20 TO 25 PERCENT.

* TIMING...THE PEAK WINDS AND LOWEST RELATIVE HUMIDITY LEVELS ARE

EXPECTED LATE MORNING THROUGH EARLY EVENING BOTH SATURDAY AND

SUNDAY.

* IMPACTS...THE FIRE DANGER SHOULD BE ELEVATED DUE TO THE GUSTY

WINDS AND DRY CONDITIONS. AS A RESULT...THE POTENTIAL EXISTS

FOR RAPID SPREAD IF UNCONTROLLED FIRES DEVELOP OR EVEN FOR

PRESCRIBED BURNS TO GET OUT OF CONTROL. OUTDOOR BURNING IS NOT

RECOMMENDED.

[Chief83]

Red Flags are up again for Sunday. Lawns and fields are pretty green here in Montgomery county pa. The issue would be the ground cover in the woods where the old leaves and debris are drying out due to the lack of rain . It is a good thing this dry spell is not in July or august when the sun evaporates what moisture there is much faster than now.

[LMolineuxLM1]

Red Flags are up again for Sunday. Lawns and fields are pretty green here in Montgomery county pa. The issue would be the ground cover in the woods where the old leaves and debris are drying out due to the lack of rain . It is a good thing this dry spell is not in July or august when the sun evaporates what moisture there is much faster than now.

Only thing we have really going against us right now is these sustained winds and gusts above 25MPH, and monday could hit 40MPH any fire that gets going on monday could spread really fast and easy.

[SmokeEater]

Red Flags are up again for Sunday. Lawns and fields are pretty green here in Montgomery county pa. The issue would be the ground cover in the woods where the old leaves and debris are drying out due to the lack of rain . It is a good thing this dry spell is not in July or august when the sun evaporates what moisture there is much faster than now.

Exactly, that's the problem, not the ground, right now at least, but the fuels on top of it. If we get through this week without a major fire, except for the one in Winslow Twp, a couple miles from my house, I'll be really surprised.

[SmokeEater]

Again... If no showers on Monday, 5th day in a row of RFW conditions

HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MOUNT HOLLY NJ

819 PM EDT SAT APR 7 2012

NJZ013-014-020-022>025-027-090030-

WESTERN MONMOUTH-EASTERN MONMOUTH-OCEAN-ATLANTIC-CAPE MAY-

ATLANTIC COASTAL CAPE MAY-COASTAL ATLANTIC-SOUTHEASTERN BURLINGTON-

819 PM EDT SAT APR 7 2012

...RED FLAG WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 10 AM TO 8 PM EDT SUNDAY...

THIS HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK IS FOR CENTRAL NEW JERSEY AND

SOUTHERN NEW JERSEY.

.DAY ONE...TONIGHT.

MINOR TIDAL FLOODING IS POSSIBLE AROUND THE TIME OF HIGH TIDE LATE

THIS EVENING.

LOW TEMPERATURES NEAR OR AROUND FREEZING ARE POSSIBLE IN THE

PINE BARRENS.

.DAYS TWO THROUGH SEVEN...SUNDAY THROUGH FRIDAY.

PLEASE LISTEN TO NOAA WEATHER RADIO OR GO TO WEATHER.GOV ON THE

INTERNET FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE FOLLOWING HAZARDS.

RED FLAG WARNING.

ABSENT SIGNIFICANT SHOWER ACTIVITY, ENHANCED FIRE WEATHER

CONDITIONS ARE QUITE POSSIBLE AGAIN ON MONDAY.

[Rainshadow]

They'll be a 5th day tomorrow barring some miraculous rise in dew points.

[SmokeEater]

They'll be a 5th day tomorrow barring some miraculous rise in dew points.

Yup, it's getting bad down here now, fires popping up everywhere. Wind is supposed to be worse tomorrow too. Also, whoever forecasts for the State Forestry, don't know if you guys do it, or they have their own, said do not expect rain until possibly Tuesday night into Wednesday, if then. We may combust down here before it happens.

[Rainshadow]

Yup, it's getting bad down here now, fires popping up everywhere. Wind is supposed to be worse tomorrow too. Also, whoever forecasts for the State Forestry, don't know if you guys do it, or they have their own, said do not expect rain until possibly Tuesday night into Wednesday, if then. We may combust down here before it happens.

State Forestry has told us about 99% are "man made" fires whether accidental or deliberate.

It doesn't look like much rain even if it does occur. What good news there is, looks like the temp/dew point spread narrows "somewhat" after Monday.

[LMolineuxLM1]

State Forestry has told us about 99% are "man made" fires whether accidental or deliberate.

It doesn't look like much rain even if it does occur. What good news there is, looks like the temp/dew point spread narrows "somewhat" after Monday.

I know what your saying about the spread narrows, but the issue is that look at the wind gusts today a bit above forecasted levels thus continuing the dry out process, which also if we can sustain a west wind this up coming week we could see the same type of pattern of wind gusts causing some more drying. Even here in SE PA things could start going fire wise with some state forests here not far from me. Wonder if they will go, but the niceness is that there are alot of creeks and water way around to keep some of the soil somewhat wet.

[SmokeEater]

State Forestry has told us about 99% are "man made" fires whether accidental or deliberate.

It doesn't look like much rain even if it does occur. What good news there is, looks like the temp/dew point spread narrows "somewhat" after Monday.

Yup, exactly. No matter how dry it is, there is always going to be some moron trying to burn brush, or have a bonfire, or just setting fires themselves. We had a brush fire in a backyard a couple of weeks ago on one of the real dry days, the homeowner was burning brush, and damn near burnt the house down. And they tried telling us they started it in a fire ring, which hadn't been touched, yet the huge pile of brush, right underneath the pine tree was blazing.