valkhorn Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I Agree there's no such animal. It's possible to have an F6 tornado - but the thing is the damage between an F5 and F6 would not be detectable since above F5 nothing would be left. The old Fujita scale went all the way to F12 where wind speeds approached the speed of sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 It's possible to have an F6 tornado - but the thing is the damage between an F5 and F6 would not be detectable since above F5 nothing would be left. The old Fujita scale went all the way to F12 where wind speeds approached the speed of sound. It was technically "possible" on the old scale (Fujita himself considered an F6 rating at least once) but I think the only way it could've happened would've been if there were wind measurements from a tornado that exceeded 318 mph. That would've at least sparked some debate in the weather community, but still, to assign an F6 rating would sorta go against the idea of the scale...it is a damage scale after all. I believe the Moore wind measurement was 301 mph when reducing to ground level, so even if one would rate based on wind speed, it still wouldn't have qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 It was technically "possible" on the old scale (Fujita himself considered an F6 rating at least once) but I think the only way it could've happened would've been if there were wind measurements from a tornado that exceeded 318 mph. That would've at least sparked some debate in the weather community, but still, to assign an F6 rating would sorta go against the idea of the scale...it is a damage scale after all. I believe the Moore wind measurement was 301 mph when reducing to ground level, so even if one would rate based on wind speed, it still wouldn't have qualified. The Doppler measurement had error bars I believe, probably based off of spectrum width, that would potentially exceed 318. Nonetheless, until there's documented evidence of wind measurements beyond that, there are far worse answers than Moore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensō Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The Doppler measurement had error bars I believe, probably based off of spectrum width, that would potentially exceed 318. Nonetheless, until there's documented evidence of wind measurements beyond that, there are far worse answers than Moore. Wasn't it +/- 20mph or something? In any event, let me start by saying that there's really no way to really know which tornadoes were strongest. Not only is there relatively little (and not necessarily reliable) information on older tornadoes, we don't really have a way of standardizing things for an accurate comparison. Construction standards change. The ratings have changed -- even though they're meant to be compatible, I don't think we can reliably say that an F5 would still be an EF5 today with the more stringent standards and accounting for construction and so on, and vice versa. But I think we all know that already, so on to the fun. I tried to put these in a rough order, but really there's not much difference so any tornado on the list could be swapped with any other and I'd probably be okay with it. More recent tornadoes tend to be rated more highly just because we know a lot more about them, so keep that in mind too. 1. Jarrell, TX -- May 27, 1997 Probably the most intense F5 damage ever recorded, period. Now, the argument against this being the "strongest" tornado is that the forward speed was so, so slow that any structure in its path was exposed to the wind for much longer than usual, meaning slower winds could do damage normally associated with much higher winds. But almost everything we know about tornado strength is based on the damage caused, so since this tornado caused almost certainly the most intense damage ever, I'm putting this one first. I really can't think of another tornado in which, after it hit, you literally couldn't tell structures ever existed there apart from the foundations -- some of which, IIRC, were actually buckled or damaged. I also recall hearing of utility poles that were not just snapped or pushed over, but literally broken in half and ripped off just a foot or two from their base. Entire families were killed in some cases because there was simply no safe place anywhere above ground. Exhibit A: 2. Hackleburg - Phil Campbell, AL -- April 27, 2011 There are many reasons this tornado is so high on this list. The first is the damage at the Wrangler Plant in Hackleburg, which is some of the most impressive that I've seen. All along its path, the damage was so intense that even local residents were completely lost because of the utter lack of landmarks. Extensive wind rowing was evident especially around Hackleburg. Even more sobering is that Hackleburg and Phil Campbell didn't even experience the tornado at its most violent. The tornado maxed out in Oak Grove, where a Corvette (I think?) was thrown more than 640ft and mangled beyond recognition, a well-built, very well-anchored home was literally flattened and scattered in the wind, and the path length widened out beyond a mile. According to the survey team, a brick home in this area was "disintegrated." A 25ft section of pavement was ripped from the ground, torn into chunks and thrown more than 1/3 mile. Exhibit A - Before and after of the Hackleburg Wrangler Plant: Exhibit B - Church swept from its foundation in Phil Campbell: 3. Philadelphia, MS -- April 27, 2011 Anyone who has researched this tornado probably knows why it's here. First and most dramatically, this tornado dug an incredible 2ft. deep trench across a field in Neshoba County. Keep in mind that this tornado, IIRC, was moving at nearly 60mph(!) when it did this. It's one thing to see a very slow-moving tornado (Jarrell, etc.) scour the ground. It's another entirely to see that happen with a very fast-moving tornado. Pavement was also scoured. In addition, a strapped-down doublewide was thrown more than 300 yards before being thrown into a grove of trees and entirely obliterated, with debris being scattered several hundred yards further downrange. There were no impact points between where the trailer was and where it was thrown - it traveled the full 300 yards in the air. Exhibits A & B - Extreme ground scouring. Exhibit C - An unrecognizable vehicle thrown into a tree, scoured pavement, completely leveled homes and more ground scouring. 3. Guin, AL - April 3, 1974 I think this is almost everyone's favorite dark horse candidate for strongest tornado. I've heard from multiple sources that Dr. Fujita himself briefly considered an F6 rating for this tornado, but I've heard the same about Xenia, and I've never actually seen anything to substantiate it. So, with that in mind, I'll just consider that a rumor. Either way, there's little doubt that Guin was an absolutely violent tornado. As bad as Xenia was, this was probably the tornado of the outbreak. Not to mention the impressive 100-plus mile path length. 4. Smithville, MS -- April 27, 2011 Among other incredible feats of strength, perhaps the most impressive was the fact that this tornado lofted an SUV into the air, threw it half a mile into the top of a water tower (where I've been told the large dent can still be seen today), then continued to carry it on another half-mile before leaving it crumpled into a completely unrecognizable ball. It also left numerous cleanly swept slabs, tearing away everything including base plates and leaving just the sheared anchor bolts left attached. A large drainage culvert was also ripped out through the several feet of ground and road above it. Keep in mind this tornado was traveling ~70mph, so all of this damage was likely done in the span of fewer than ten seconds. Exhibit A - The mangled car with the water tower that it was thrown into in the background: Exhibit B - Obvious EF5 damage with some ground scarring. The gaping hole where the culvert was ripped out can be seen at left, near the railroad tracks. 4. Udall, KS -- May 25, 1955 A persuasive argument could probably be made for this to be in the top one or two, but since I know a little less about this tornado than some others on the list I've placed it here. A municipal water tower was twisted and toppled over. Several buildings were "exploded," with every wall being violently thrown outward. In all, virtually every structure in town was either completely obliterated or left uninhabitable. Exhibit A - Udall municipal water tower: 5. Lawrence County, TN -- April 16, 1998 Often called "The Forgotten F5" since it occurred in almost exclusively rural, unpopulated areas, this tornado could have been absolutely devastating had it occurred in a more populated area. There's not a lot of information on this one, but what info there is seems pretty impressive. A one-ton truck was thrown more than 100 yards, several homes were completely leveled and swept clean with some damage to foundations, and there is a report of a vehicle found 10+ miles from its original location (very unlikely, of course) and another vehicle that was "missing" and said to have never been found. As we all know, tornado damage gets rather exaggerated in most cases, but it's certainly a violent tornado in any case. I also recall hearing of some ground scarring, though I'm not positive of it. 6. Bridge Creek -- Moore, OK -- May 3, 1999 According to the NWS the actual damage produced by this tornado was not all that spectacular, registering as a minimal F5. It may not have even been the strongest of that outbreak for that matter. But, since it produced the highest ever recorded wind speed (for whatever that's worth), I'd say that's enough to warrant a spot on this list. It probably should be toward the bottom of this list, actually. 7. Parkersburg, IA -- May 25, 2008 Debris said to have been "granulated," portions of at least one basement damaged and pulled from the ground, etc. Absolutely violent tornado, possibly could've been higher. Exhibit A: Exhibit B: 8. Xenia, OH -- April 3, 1974 Well, everybody knows about this one. Although from my understanding -- I'm not sure where I got this from -- the damage may have actually been F3 or F4 through most of the city, with the F5 damage occurring primarily in and around Arrowhead where homes weren't built particularly well. Either way, it's one of the most famous tornadoes ever for a reason. 9. Joplin, MO -- May 22, 2011 I'm basing this largely on the manhole covers being pulled up and thrown and the concrete parking stops being sheared off and thrown. I've heard conflicting reports about the construction quality of some of the housing in Joplin, so I don't know what to make of that. I don't think there's any question it was a violent tornado, though. I didn't factor in the horrible death toll because, as tragic as it is, that could potentially happen anywhere when you have a large, violent, rain-wrapped tornado striking a relatively unprepared, populated area. We're pretty fortunate it hasn't happened more often, IMO. Exhibit A - This one has always been really striking to me: 10. Uh.. I don't know. Pretty anticlimactic, I know. I don't really know which tornado to place here so I'm just gonna list a bunch of "honorable mentions" that could all probably lay claim to the 10th spot: Jordan, IA -- June 13, 1976 Brandenburg, KY -- April 3, 1974 Plainfield, IL -- August 28, 1990 Red Rock, OK -- April 26, 1991 Andover, KS -- April 26, 1991 Niles, OH - Wheatland, PA -- May 31, 1985 Mulhall, OK -- May 3, 1999 Hallam, NE -- May 22, 2004 El Reno - Piedmont, OK -- May 24, 2011 Trousdale, KS -- May 4, 2007 Greensburg, KS -- May 4, 2007 (maybe) And about a hundred others, I know I'm leaving out a bunch of really significant tornadoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Wasn't it +/- 20mph or something? Yeah, it's 135 m/s +/- 10 m/s. Even that's just a mean in a volume, though dealing with spectral measurements is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensō Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I know I'm getting a little off-topic (sorry!) but what are your thoughts on radar-measured wind speed? I think it's great as far as research goes, but I think it does more harm than good when it gets released to the general public. Causes all sorts of confusion and misconceptions. Speaking of which, was the actual measurement taken of the El Reno tornado ever released? The last I'd heard they were only saying that it was "significantly higher" than the EF5 threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I'm sure it is around somewhere, although the actual raw data is probably private among Wurman and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I know I'm getting a little off-topic (sorry!) but what are your thoughts on radar-measured wind speed? I think it's great as far as research goes, but I think it does more harm than good when it gets released to the general public.Causes all sorts of confusion and misconceptions. I'd agree with that. Speaking of which, was the actual measurement taken of the El Reno tornado ever released? . No, the data were not released. The last I'd heard they were only saying that it was "significantly higher" than the EF5 threshold That's accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I'm sure it is around somewhere, although the actual raw data is probably private among Wurman and co. They weren't even on the El Reno storm, they were on the Canton Lake storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Love these threads! 1. Philidelphia, MS 2011: Most incredible ground scouring ever recorded, worse than Jarrell or Bridge Creek and was moving faster than both of those. Dug out the ground to a depth of 2 feet. Rated EF5 for hitting an open field. Think about that. My personal pick. ------- Other that that, I can't put things in order. But here are my picks for the most violent of the violent. Hudsonville, MI 1956: Damage in the Van Buren St area was comparable to Jarell, except this tornado was smaller and faster moving. Foundations were stripped of everything. Carpet, tacks, tiles, paneling all gone. Intense ground scouring occurred and only small pieces of debris were recovered from some homes, like they were put through a wood chipper. Cars were found in multiple pieces. Guin, AL 1974: I have heard that this thing actually pulled anchor bolts and even whole slab foundations out of the ground, leaving nothing but dirt. Steel rebar was found snapped. Niles, OH/Wheatland, PA 1985: Many homes swept away. A large well built, steel frame strip mall was reduced to rubble. Pieces of I-beam were snapped here. House sized fuel tanks with steel inches thick were torn away from industrial sites, thrown and found crumpled and torn. A steel frame trucking plant was obliterated, with I-beams twisted like spaghetti and snapped. A large section of a parking lot had asphalt scoured away, and pieces of metal from the trucking plant were wedged under the remaining asphalt. Some victims were found skinless. Bridge Creek, OK 1999: So violent it measured on the Richter Scale. Scouring was similar to that of Jarell but this tornado was faster moving. Some home foundations cracked and had sections missing. A car was wrapped around a power pole. Measured at 318mph. I have seen pictures from Bridge Creek and it is NOT "average" F5 damage. Parkersburg, IA 2008. A thick poured, reinforced concrete walk-out basement wall cracked at the base and collapsed. Homes were so obliterated that surveyors struggled to find pieces of debris bigger than quarters in some areas. A well built shopping center was flattened. Joplin, MO 2011: A semi truck was wrapped around a tree. Many homes swept away, some with driveways scoured away. Steel frame warehouse buildings were completely swept away, with anchor bolts torn from the ground. Parking stops anchored into the asphalt were torn away and thrown. Steel reinforced buildings leveled. Udall, KS 1955: Many homes completely swept away, carpet, flooring, and all. Well built multi-level structures leveled. Produced the most impressive vehicle damage I have seen. A pickup truck was wrapped around a debarked tree with nothing left but part of the frame and the tires. The engine, body, seats, exterior, almost everything was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 They weren't even on the El Reno storm, they were on the Canton Lake storm. Only saying that because of the survey using U of Oklahoma measurements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormDude81 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Here's my list 1. Phil Campbell/Hackelburg AL Tornado from the April 27th 2011 SuperOutbreak 2. Niles Wheatland, PA Tornado from May 31st 1985 US-Canadian Outbreak 3. Joplin, MO May 22nd, 2011 4 Parkersburg Iowa, May 25th, 2008 5. Bridge Creek/Moore OK , May 3rd, 1999 6. Andover KS April 26th 1991 7. Wichita Falls, TX April 10th 1979 8. Tuscalossa/Birmingham AL, April 27th 2011 9. Xenia, OH April 3rd 1974 10. Greenburg KS, or tornado right after, both were massive and violent My 5 Underrated Strongest Tornadoes 1. Moshannon State Forest Tornado in PA on May 31st, 1985, was massive with a damage path up to 2.5 miles wide, and caused tremors , if this hit a major populated area, would have been a top 5 on the list 2. Tampa FL April 4th, 1966 Tornado Family with F4, and numerous deaths and path that crossed entire state 3. AK Valley Tornado on June 3rd, 1980, northeast of Pittsburgh, was a slow moving violent tornado that caused intense damage 4. Orienta OK Tornado from 1979, can't remember the date, but it was one of the strongest multi vortex tornadoes i've seen on video 5. Butler County F3 Tornado during the May 31st 1985, it was really intense at one point with potential F4 to F5 damage at few points of it's life, and swept big homes away to the foundation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Only saying that because of the survey using U of Oklahoma measurements. I don't follow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 I don't follow... I thought/assumed that because it said "University of Oklahoma mobile doppler radar measurements" in the survey of the El Reno/Piedmont tornado, that it meant the DOW, my mistake if that is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I thought/assumed that because it said "University of Oklahoma mobile doppler radar measurements" in the survey of the El Reno/Piedmont tornado, that it meant the DOW, my mistake if that is incorrect. Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one. https://ams.confex.com/ams/92Annual/webprogram/Paper201297.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one. https://ams.confex.c...aper201297.html Bluestein would have been my other guess, thanks for the info. I found it impressive that for at least several minutes of scanning, that thing had winds well in excess of 200 mph at scanning level. I like the idea of using vehicles as actual official DI's, since they are often used as examples in surveys, especially in more severe cases where they are thrown/mangled/split into pieces/etc. Although I suppose a lot of this exceptional damage, like heavy objects being hurled long distances, ground scouring, objects being embedded in various locations, and the sort fall under the category of "incredible phenomena will occur" within the EF5 description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I thought/assumed that because it said "University of Oklahoma mobile doppler radar measurements" in the survey of the El Reno/Piedmont tornado, that it meant the DOW, my mistake if that is incorrect. Ah, ok. Yeah, he left OU in 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Ah, ok. Yeah, he left OU in 2003. Wow, didn't realize it was that long ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSUBlizzicane2007 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Greensburg should most certainly be in the top 10. I drove through there a year after it happened, and you could still see bare foundations and lack of trees everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Greensburg should most certainly be in the top 10. I drove through there a year after it happened, and you could still see bare foundations and lack of trees everywhere. Greensburg was an awful tornado, but if you just look at damage done, it's far from the most impressive. There were a mere 5 instances of EF5 damage in the town. The impressive thing about the Greensburg tornado was the breadth of EF2+ damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 Just the shear size of the tornado and the Trousdale one following it was impressive, that supercell was otherworldly...I read on eastern that it was sending off 72k kt echo tops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor McCrorey Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 One wild card for me though... Yazoo City tornado. Though an EF-4, that tornado appeared to maintain at least EF-3 severity for SUCH a long time. I couldn't put Yazoo City on a top 10 list or anything, but having actually been inside its circulation, I can vouch for the incredible duration of time over which it maintained its intensity. That thing was leveling forests in Louisiana and managed to stay that strong or stronger across nearly the entire state of Mississippi. Pretty impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensō Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one. https://ams.confex.c...aper201297.html Excellent, hadn't seen that one. Thanks Tony! @Buckeye, think you could find those pictures of the Bridge Creek damage? Not saying that I don't believe you, I'd just like to see it. Reading back through the storm survey (found here) there was apparently some more widespread F5 damage than I remembered, but I still don't see anything that sounds exceptional to me. I certainly wouldn't question the F5 rating, that's obviously legit, but I don't recall seeing anything that really stood out in the way some of the stuff higher on my list did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one.. https://ams.confex.c...aper201297.html I might have found the other value on a website, recorded from a rapid scanning mobile radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocoAko Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one. https://ams.confex.c...aper201297.html Thanks Tony! I hadn't seen this presentation (how did I miss it at AMS?!). I actually did one of the post-tornado damage surveys with Kiel Ortega up near Stillwater and didn't even know I was listed in the presentation, so that was surprising. Go figure. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Dr. Wurman is with the Center for Severe Weather Research in Boulder, CO. Dr. Bluestein and his team were on the El Reno storm. The value given in the preprint below is over 100 m/s (223 MPH). There was another number given at the symposium that I will not divulge since the presentation is not published publicly like this one. https://ams.confex.c...aper201297.html I'm not sure how reputable it is, but this source gives a reading of 125 m/s (280 mph) about 220 ft AGL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'm not sure how reputable it is, but this source gives a reading of 125 m/s (280 mph) about 220 ft AGL. Yup, that was it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensō Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I've seen that figure elsewhere too but I had no idea whether it was legit. That's impressive if it is. Another thing -- ground/pavement scouring always seems to be used as one of the marks of an exceptionally intense tornado, but do we really have any reliable estimates for that kind of damage? It's got to be almost impossible to figure out exactly what kind of forces produces what degree of scouring, too many variables. Different kinds of overlying vegetation, various types of dirt, moisture content, the condition of pavement, etc. And beyond that, how much of it is pure wind force and how much is different kinds of interaction with the ground (multiple vortices, unusually strong upward motion, very slow forward speed, etc)? I know it's not used as a DI but it'd be interesting to see if there's been any kind of work done on that since it's usually mentioned in surveys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Reimer Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Greensburg was an awful tornado, but if you just look at damage done, it's far from the most impressive. There were a mere 5 instances of EF5 damage in the town. The impressive thing about the Greensburg tornado was the breadth of EF2+ damage. Ironically, Tim Marshall said the same thing about Joplin in a talk he did with our local AMS group. He said most damage was EF-3 to EF-4 and they had to look quite hard to find any sort of damage that would be characteristic of an EF-5 tornado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Ironically, Tim Marshall said the same thing about Joplin in a talk he did with our local AMS group. He said most damage was EF-3 to EF-4 and they had to look quite hard to find any sort of damage that would be characteristic of an EF-5 tornado. Even though Marshall's usually pretty conservative with ratings, I would have to agree with that. The aerials showed mostly EF3-4 damage... homes were not really "swept away" in most areas. Whereas if one looks at the Smithville/Phil Campbell/Rainsville aerials homes are wiped clean and the debris is blown for a long distance downstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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