donsutherland1 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 To date, Albany's coldest reading this winter is 0°F. That mark was reached on January 15 and January 22, 2012. Should Albany fail to record a reading below 0°F, Winter 2011-12 will be the fourth winter since 2000 during which no subzero lows were record. The three winters since 2000 that saw no subzero minimum temperatures were: 2000-01, 2001-02, and 2005-06. Since regular records were kept at Albany International Airport (winter 1938-39), no other winters went without a subzero low. In addition, since 2000, Albany has been averaging 5.2 days per year on which the temperature fell below 0°F. That is a day per year less than the average of 6.2 days during the 1990s. Annual Average of Days with Subzero Lows: 1940s: 10.0 1950s: 9.1 1960s: 13.0 1970s: 14.4 1980s: 10.6 1990s: 6.2 2000s: 6.3 2010s: 1.7 All said, Winter 2011-12 is poised to enter the record books as another notable winter without a subzero low at Albany, barring any extreme shots of cold in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Nice post Don, as always. To take it a step further, Albany's average snowfall as gone from 65"+ when I first came to the area in the 1990's, to 63" and now down to just shy of 60"...considering most stations north, south, east, and west have gone up a bit over the past 30 years, maybe its just a string of bad luck. Temps would be another story. Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but the neighborhood around the NWS Albany location at SUNY Albany has been built up considerably over the past 15 years. With all the additions to the CESTM building and other new science and nanotec hbuildings going up, it looks more like an urban area, as opposed to its traditional suburban setting. I only use that as a possiblility as a mini-heat island as temperature reading in the nearby Pine Bush are frequently lower by several degrees. To date, Albany's coldest reading this winter is 0°F. That mark was reached on January 15 and January 22, 2012. Should Albany fail to record a reading below 0°F, Winter 2011-12 will be the fourth winter since 2000 during which no subzero lows were record. The three winters since 2000 that saw no subzero minimum temperatures were: 2000-01, 2001-02, and 2005-06. Since regular records were kept at Albany International Airport (winter 1938-39), no other winters went without a subzero low. In addition, since 2000, Albany has been averaging 5.2 days per year on which the temperature fell below 0°F. That is a day per year less than the average of 6.2 days during the 1990s. Annual Average of Days with Subzero Lows: 1940s: 10.0 1950s: 9.1 1960s: 13.0 1970s: 14.4 1980s: 10.6 1990s: 6.2 2000s: 6.3 2010s: 1.7 All said, Winter 2011-12 is poised to enter the record books as another notable winter without a subzero low at Albany, barring any extreme shots of cold in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsutherland1 Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but the neighborhood around the NWS Albany location at SUNY Albany has been built up considerably over the past 15 years. With all the additions to the CESTM building and other new science and nanotec hbuildings going up, it looks more like an urban area, as opposed to its traditional suburban setting. I only use that as a possiblility as a mini-heat island as temperature reading in the nearby Pine Bush are frequently lower by several degrees. I suspect the development has almost certainly contributed to the fall off in days with subzero lows. How great that contribution has been remains to be seen. Unfortunately, a lot of suburban records don't go back as far as Albany's, so a guestimate is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Windcredible! Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I suspect the development has almost certainly contributed to the fall off in days with subzero lows. How great that contribution has been remains to be seen. Unfortunately, a lot of suburban records don't go back as far as Albany's, so a guestimate is difficult. Why don't you just keep your depressing winter temp stats to yourself? In all seriousness, the development Stash is referencing is over by the NWS building...the stats you posted are from the airport correct? I'm new to the area, but I don't think there's been any significant development near the airport in the past decade that would be affecting temperatures there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Excellent point...I guess since they record official snowfall amounts at the campus I assumed the temperature would be too. No, the airport hasn't had any significant development that I can think of...some retail, residential, etc...but nothing to the tune that the Fuller-Washington area has. Why don't you just keep your depressing winter temp stats to yourself? In all seriousness, the development Stash is referencing is over by the NWS building...the stats you posted are from the airport correct? I'm new to the area, but I don't think there's been any significant development near the airport in the past decade that would be affecting temperatures there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis1729 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The lowest temp this winter so far in Chicago (ORD) is 5F. That would be the warmest winter min temp on record. The previous record was 3F in 1982-83. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Don, I'm not sure if it can be proven, but there has been quite a bit of urbanization around the airport since those days of the 1960's to 1980's. The airport was still primarily surrounded by farms even in the 80's. It lies on the sandy loam soil of the Pine Bush - an area that was once an inland sea and this was excellent land for growing various types of vegetables ..so called truck farms. For more info on the this inland pine barrens do a google - there is a preserve and attempts now to retain the remaining stands of this unique fauna. Just in general the population of the Town of Colonie has exploded since the 1960's and it is now poised to surpass the City of Albany soon. So we went from a rural to a suburban environment in the area of the airport. Out here we did get down to -12F (22 miles as the crow flies west of KALB). I think had about 5 or 6 sub zero days but the rest were in the negative singles digits category. Obviously a mild winter. To date, Albany's coldest reading this winter is 0°F. That mark was reached on January 15 and January 22, 2012. Should Albany fail to record a reading below 0°F, Winter 2011-12 will be the fourth winter since 2000 during which no subzero lows were record. The three winters since 2000 that saw no subzero minimum temperatures were: 2000-01, 2001-02, and 2005-06. Since regular records were kept at Albany International Airport (winter 1938-39), no other winters went without a subzero low. In addition, since 2000, Albany has been averaging 5.2 days per year on which the temperature fell below 0°F. That is a day per year less than the average of 6.2 days during the 1990s. Annual Average of Days with Subzero Lows: 1940s: 10.0 1950s: 9.1 1960s: 13.0 1970s: 14.4 1980s: 10.6 1990s: 6.2 2000s: 6.3 2010s: 1.7 All said, Winter 2011-12 is poised to enter the record books as another notable winter without a subzero low at Albany, barring any extreme shots of cold in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 A decent comparison would be temperatures recorded at the Airport vs. the Pine Bush (same soil - and many of the radio stations within record temps there). The Pine Bush radiates like crazy as you would expect, but doesn't seem to do it as much these days at either SUNY A or the airport. I've only been in the area since the 1990's (New England native) so its neat to hear about its history. I've attempted to find information on the old glacial Lake Albany, but its tough to come by. I've had 4 sub-zero nights at home in Rotterdam this winter - and its not a fantastic location for radiational cooling due to the constant breezes. Don, I'm not sure if it can be proven, but there has been quite a bit of urbanization around the airport since those days of the 1960's to 1980's. The airport was still primarily surrounded by farms even in the 80's. It lies on the sandy loam soil of the Pine Bush - an area that was once an inland sea and this was excellent land for growing various types of vegetables ..so called truck farms. For more info on the pine do a google - there is a preserve and attempts to preserve the remaining stands of this unique fauna. Just in general the population of the Town of Colonie has exploded since the 1960's and it is now poised to surpass the City of Albany soon. So we went from a rural to a suburban environment in the area of the airport. Out here we did get down to -12F (22 miles as the crow flies west of KALB). I think had about 5 or 6 sub zero days but the rest were in the negative singles digits category. Obviously a mild winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Someone here mentioned Wolfe Road. This is the ne to sw road that begins just east of the airport and extends south a few miles ..now the prime retail/commercial strip (among several) in the Town of Colonie. In the 1960's this road was lined by farms (as mentioned in previous post) with development just at the southern end where a large mall was constructed around 1965. The ADK Northway (I-87) was built parallel just to the west and this chopped a lot of those farmers' land in half. But the upper parts toward the airport didn't develop out much until the 1980's. Then in the 90's and 2000's all the farms that ringed the airport vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie09 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I think herkimer has had about 3-4 subzero nights..They where pretty much in the same week, including back to back -8 degree nights.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I know there is a obs station someone has in the Pinebush -- on mesowest. Now even that area has seen development with a lot of little developments scattered amidst the pine stands. But certainly a lot less suburban that Colonie. A decent comparison would be temperatures recorded at the Airport vs. the Pine Bush (same soil - and many of the radio stations within record temps there). The Pine Bush radiates like crazy as you would expect, but doesn't seem to do it as much these days at either SUNY A or the airport. I've only been in the area since the 1990's (New England native) so its neat to hear about its history. I've attempted to find information on the old glacial Lake Albany, but its tough to come by. I've had 4 sub-zero nights at home in Rotterdam this winter - and its not a fantastic location for radiational cooling due to the constant breezes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebreaker5221 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 To date, Albany's coldest reading this winter is 0°F. That mark was reached on January 15 and January 22, 2012. Should Albany fail to record a reading below 0°F, Winter 2011-12 will be the fourth winter since 2000 during which no subzero lows were record. The three winters since 2000 that saw no subzero minimum temperatures were: 2000-01, 2001-02, and 2005-06. Since regular records were kept at Albany International Airport (winter 1938-39), no other winters went without a subzero low. In addition, since 2000, Albany has been averaging 5.2 days per year on which the temperature fell below 0°F. That is a day per year less than the average of 6.2 days during the 1990s. Annual Average of Days with Subzero Lows: 1940s: 10.0 1950s: 9.1 1960s: 13.0 1970s: 14.4 1980s: 10.6 1990s: 6.2 2000s: 6.3 2010s: 1.7 All said, Winter 2011-12 is poised to enter the record books as another notable winter without a subzero low at Albany, barring any extreme shots of cold in March. You really can't put the blame on any 1 thing. 01-02 was an exceptionally warm winter, and 00-01 and 05-06 were relatively mild as well. +NAOs in the heart of winter all 3 seasons didn't help matters. If I recall correctly, several close calls were spoiled in 00-01 and 05-06 due to cold but windy nights, with overnight mixing keeping it above 0. The fact that the average number of sub-zero days is less than in the 90s is simply due to a few years with nothing weighing down the mean. Urban development probably doesn't help matters, but it's really not all that developed by the airport. Was just there in Jan. Nonetheless, the heat island effect may possibly "spill over" from Colonie, as mentioned. Lastly, while the warm winters in the 00s had nothing to do with climate change, there will be more days in the 21st century that will have a low of 0 to +1 that would have been -1 to 0 last century, and that can amount to a day or two every couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shsg Falls Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 What about comparing KALB temperature data to Mohonk COOP (outside of New Paltz)? I know Mohonk has it's siting issues, but that area of Ulster County really hasn't had any urbanization for generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Windcredible! Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Don, I'm not sure if it can be proven, but there has been quite a bit of urbanization around the airport since those days of the 1960's to 1980's. The airport was still primarily surrounded by farms even in the 80's. It lies on the sandy loam soil of the Pine Bush - an area that was once an inland sea and this was excellent land for growing various types of vegetables ..so called truck farms. For more info on the this inland pine barrens do a google - there is a preserve and attempts now to retain the remaining stands of this unique fauna. Just in general the population of the Town of Colonie has exploded since the 1960's and it is now poised to surpass the City of Albany soon. So we went from a rural to a suburban environment in the area of the airport. Out here we did get down to -12F (22 miles as the crow flies west of KALB). I think had about 5 or 6 sub zero days but the rest were in the negative singles digits category. Obviously a mild winter. I guess the question is how much does the development say 2 miles from the ASOS really affect the ASOS? You have a mile or two radius surrounding the ASOS that really hasn't undergone much development. On a night with good radiational cooling, I don't think the area down by Wolf Rd would have much impact on temperatures at the ASOS. Just my guess anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If there hasn't been development then I'm not sure what happened to all the farms that used to border the airport on the east and south sides. especially and the farms that were along Albany Shaker Road. Look on google maps (satellite) and there are subdivisions all around the airport area. To the south there is a wooded area that may be protected because of the Shaker site. It's not intense development like Queens near LGA, etc., so maybe some people perceive it as not being very developed, whereas I remember when it was pretty rural aside from the piss poor little airport that used to be there - before they improved it. But just in general the Town of Colonie (which includes that whole area) is much more built up. I guess the question is how much does the development say 2 miles from the ASOS really affect the ASOS? You have a mile or two radius surrounding the ASOS that really hasn't undergone much development. On a night with good radiational cooling, I don't think the area down by Wolf Rd would have much impact on temperatures at the ASOS. Just my guess anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Windcredible! Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If there hasn't been development then I'm not sure what happened to all the farms that used to border the airport on the east and south sides. especially and the farms that were along Albany Shaker Road. Look on google maps (satellite) and there are subdivisions all around the airport area. To the south there is a wooded area that may be protected because of the Shaker site. It's not intense development like Queens near LGA, etc., so maybe some people perceive it as not being very developed, whereas I remember when it was pretty rural aside from the piss poor little airport that used to be there - before they improved it. But just in general the Town of Colonie (which includes that whole area) is much more built up. I'm not saying it's not been developed...but I am questioning how much impact the development has had. For one, seems development within a couple miles of the airport has been pretty minimal since 1990. Correct me if I'm wrong there, as you clearly have more knowledge of the area historically. The Albany Shaker Road area seems to have been pretty well developed by the early 1990's, which is as far back as I can see on Google Earth. I exclude Wolf Rd from that because that's getting beyond 2 miles from the ASOS, so the explosion there since 1990 I wouldn't think is having much of an impact. Even still, its not like the area around the airport is a concrete jungle that radiates heat like you would see around NYC and Newark. Has development had an impact in measurements since say the 1960's? I'm sure it has had a little, but I have to really doubt it is a huge impact responsible for the drop off in sub zero days that Don presented. Especially when you talk about subzero lows in the winter. You're talking about great radiational cooling nights with no wind where lows can be very localized, I wouldn't think development beyond maybe 1/2 mile to mile from the ASOS would have much of an impact on nights like that. Look at a place like the Pine Barrens on LI...being right on the shore, you'll be influenced by the relatively warmer waters...but you really only have to go inland maybe a mile on a good radiational cooling night to see a huge drop off in temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well most the super subzero readings (below -10F) seem to have been before 1990, but again just relying on recall. Someone should take the time to look at readings below -10 by decade. I remember quite a few as a kid and the all time record low of I think -28 when I was a small child. No way ALB gets as consistently cold as it did years ago so maybe it's global warming after all if it's not urbanization. Or we're just in a mild cycle.... I'm not saying it's not been developed...but I am questioning how much impact the development has had. For one, seems development within a couple miles of the airport has been pretty minimal since 1990. Correct me if I'm wrong there, as you clearly have more knowledge of the area historically. The Albany Shaker Road area seems to have been pretty well developed by the early 1990's, which is as far back as I can see on Google Earth. I exclude Wolf Rd from that because that's getting beyond 2 miles from the ASOS, so the explosion there since 1990 I wouldn't think is having much of an impact. Even still, its not like the area around the airport is a concrete jungle that radiates heat like you would see around NYC and Newark. Has development had an impact in measurements since say the 1960's? I'm sure it has had a little, but I have to really doubt it is a huge impact responsible for the drop off in sub zero days that Don presented. Especially when you talk about subzero lows in the winter. You're talking about great radiational cooling nights with no wind where lows can be very localized, I wouldn't think development beyond maybe 1/2 mile to mile from the ASOS would have much of an impact on nights like that. Look at a place like the Pine Barrens on LI...being right on the shore, you'll be influenced by the relatively warmer waters...but you really only have to go inland maybe a mile on a good radiational cooling night to see a huge drop off in temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Windcredible! Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Well most the super subzero readings (below -10F) seem to have been before 1990, but again just relying on recall. Someone should take the time to look at readings below -10 by decade. I remember quite a few as a kid and the all time record low of I think -28 when I was a small child. No way ALB gets as consistently cold as it did years ago so maybe it's global warming after all if it's not urbanization. Or we're just in a mild cycle.... Really, one need to compare with other stations in NY and SNE and see if ALB has seen a bigger decline in subzero lows and days than others. Probably the best comparison would be with a station that has not undergone any urbanization and is still in a fairly rural spot. Any good candidates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Someone mentioned the private Mohonk records from the Shawangunk Hills outside New Paltz . That's 70 miles south though...but a pristine unchanged environment. Really, one need to compare with other stations in NY and SNE and see if ALB has seen a bigger decline in subzero lows and days than others. Probably the best comparison would be with a station that has not undergone any urbanization and is still in a fairly rural spot. Any good candidates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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