2012 March Banter Thread

[Sundog]

The replacement of lower buildings with skyscrapers is unlikely to have a positive additional effect on the urban heat island. In fact, I wonder if it could have a slight negative effect (since the "ground" is more heavily shaded and surfaces getting sunlight are elevated higher into the sky).

The areas to the east of LGA had open fields and farms as later as the 1960's. I'm talking about inside Queens. There also used to be a bunch of full sized golf courses that were developed in the 1960s as well. When LGA opened up in the 1940's NE Queens was basically rural, not even suburban.

Check out NE Queens in 1954. Still large areas undeveloped. All the development around it occurred 10 years prior.

[pazzo83]

Agree. Central Park is not a good climo station for Manhattan.

It represents the Bronx and NE Queens better then its own borough.

LGA is very representative of Manhattan and any other northern area that has no trees at all.

Yea, the PWS's near me are often closer to LGA than to the park.

[Sundog]

Several years before LGA became LGA:

[PB GFI]

Please point out, on the satellite image, where there was significantly less ARTIFICIAL GROUND COVER. If its not on the map, or if the area was covered by lower buildings, then it probably has minimal, if any effect on LGA.

Size of buildings doesn't matter much, if at all. What matters is replacing bare dirt with asphalt, concrete, steel, roofing tile, etc.

spot on .

[ag3]

OK, let me make this crystal clear.

Please point out, on the satellite image, where there was significantly less ARTIFICIAL GROUND COVER. If its not on the map, or if the area was covered by lower buildings, then it probably has minimal, if any effect on LGA.

Size of buildings doesn't matter much, if at all. What matters is replacing bare dirt with asphalt, concrete, steel, roofing tile, etc.

I already pointed out 3 examples of areas that had no buildings at all and have been developed in the past 10 years. I dont have time to locate satellite images of major urbanization over the past 30 years.

Look at the census data alone for an area like Flushing.

[pazzo83]

5" from my hometown:

[Sundog]

I already pointed out 3 examples of areas that had no buildings at all and have been developed in the past 10 years. I dont have time to locate satellite images of major urbanization over the past 30 years.

Look at the census data alone for an area like Flushing.

I already did. When LGA was established the homes to its south were much more suburban and green and the areas to its east were either undeveloped woods/fields or homes with huge lots and country roads. Even in 1954 like I showed a significant chunk of Bayside was undeveloped.

[ag3]

I already did. When LGA was established the homes to its south were much more suburban and green and the areas to its east were either undeveloped woods/fields or homes with huge lots and country roads. Even in 1954 like I showed a significant chunk of Bayside was undeveloped.

Its more recent that that. Look at College Point Queens 20 years ago to today. Major marsh lands now taken over by shopping malls and buildings.

Hunters Point in Long Island City, is another classic example.

[ag3]

Main Street, Flushing in 1954:

[Sundog]

Main Street, Flushing in 1954:

This was the busiest business street in all of NE Queens. If you ventured even 2 blocks up from Main Street it was very suburban. Parts of that are still preserved in the North Flushing area.

[earthlight]

back from california. this weather sucks.

[Nikolai]

I think the argument that skyscrapers make no difference when it comes to the heat island is ridiculous. All the extra heat etc associated with high-density living/working certainly makes a difference--compare Midtown Manhattan (or downtown) to anywhere else on the island and the difference is notable (i.e., any event of 6-10" or less is pretty much unnoticeable in the densest areas).

[TheTrials]

back from california. this weather sucks.

No one said you had to come back.

[Analog96]

I think the argument that skyscrapers make no difference when it comes to the heat island is ridiculous. All the extra heat etc associated with high-density living/working certainly makes a difference--compare Midtown Manhattan (or downtown) to anywhere else on the island and the difference is notable (i.e., any event of 6-10" or less is pretty much unnoticeable in the densest areas).

Ray does have a point, though. Skyscrapers do produce more shade. As far as residential vs. commerical, I probably agree more with ag3, because most homes at least have green lawns, whereas many commercial buildings do not.

[famartin]

Here's LGA area in 1966. Looks relatively developed to me. Anyway, I'm done.

[pazzo83]

I think the argument that skyscrapers make no difference when it comes to the heat island is ridiculous. All the extra heat etc associated with high-density living/working certainly makes a difference--compare Midtown Manhattan (or downtown) to anywhere else on the island and the difference is notable (i.e., any event of 6-10" or less is pretty much unnoticeable in the densest areas).

It's at LEAST 5 deg warmer most nights in midtown than anywhere else in the city. It is extremely noticeable when you enter/exit Central Park.

Example: this morning the low got to 32 in the park (and was 32 for several hours), but standing water all over the place in midtown east (indicating nowhere close to freezing).

[famartin]

It's at LEAST 5 deg warmer most nights in midtown than anywhere else in the city. It is extremely noticeable when you enter/exit Central Park.

Example: this morning the low got to 32 in the park (and was 32 for several hours), but standing water all over the place in midtown east (indicating nowhere close to freezing).

I don't think that's a valid argument. Water holds more heat and gives it up more slowly, so any given pool of water likely stayed a bit warmer than the air.

[Sundog]

It's at LEAST 5 deg warmer most nights in midtown than anywhere else in the city. It is extremely noticeable when you enter/exit Central Park.

Example: this morning the low got to 32 in the park (and was 32 for several hours), but standing water all over the place in midtown east (indicating nowhere close to freezing).

Meanwhile solid ice here in Whitestone. Low temp at LGA: 33 lol.

[pazzo83]

I don't think that's a valid argument. Water holds more heat and gives it up more slowly, so any given pool of water likely stayed a bit warmer than the air.

Most of the standing water on the paths through the park this morning was iced over. The difference is noticeable and significant unless there is rain/snow falling.

I've noted this dozens of times this winter.

[pazzo83]

Meanwhile solid ice here in Whitestone. Low temp at LGA: 33 lol.

Yep, you are on the opposite end.

[ag3]

Any area that is cement and covered by high density buildings and population is warmer.

An example,

Astoria, NY is always warmer then Bayside/Whitestone Queens. Both sit on the north shore of Queens but Astoria is very similar to Manhattan. Covered in cement, few trees, and highly populated area.

In the past 10 years, Astoria as well has seen zoning changes and it has created dozens of multi-family buildings that were never there.

More people = more cars, more pollution and warmer temps.

An area like Bayside, Queens can be several degrees colder then an area like Flushing, Queens and we are talking about 2 miles distance. Go a little more east into Great Neck, Long Island (5 miles east of Bayside) and its even cooler at times.

[earthlight]

No one said you had to come back.

Similar reaction to when you started posting again last week

[TheTrials]

Similar reaction to when you started posting again last week

agreed, but I am not here complaining about the weather. If you don't like it, don't live in the northeast in March.

[pazzo83]

Any area that is cement and covered by high density buildings and population is warmer.

An example,

Astoria, NY is always warmer then Bayside/Whitestone Queens. Both sit on the north shore of Queens but Astoria is very similar to Manhattan. Covered in cement, few trees, and highly populated area.

In the past 10 years, Astoria as well has seen zoning changes and it has created hundreds of multi-family buildings that were never there.

More people = more cars, more pollution and warmer temps.

An area like Bayside, Queens can be several degrees colder then an area like Flushing, Queens and we are talking about 2 miles distance. Go a little more east into Great Neck (5 miles east of Bayside) and its even cooler at times.

Yep. At night these tiny microclimates are extremely evident.

In the summer, it is very refreshing to run into the park at night. You literally feel the temperature drop several degrees just by crossing 5th Ave by the Apple Store. Central Park is Manhattan's A/C.

[ag3]

Yep. At night these tiny microclimates are extremely evident.

In the summer, it is very refreshing to run into the park at night. You literally feel the temperature drop several degrees just by crossing 5th Ave by the Apple Store. Central Park is Manhattan's A/C.

I have seen at least 10 times over the past 10 years, where Bayside/Whitestone has 3"+ of snow on all streets and then you drive 2 miles west to populated areas like Corona, LGA, Jackson Heights and there is zero snow.

The winter of 2008-2009 was a classic example. Occured several times alone in that winter.

[famartin]

OK, so we've established that there are plenty of microclimates, with literally a block or two marking their difference in some cases. So, I'm still wondering how a some bigger buildings a mile or more away from LGA is gonna have an big effect on the temps there (and mind you by LGA I'm referring specifically to the ASOS location).

[JERSEYSNOWROB]

Wow this thread has been a great history lesson of sorts on the development of Queens over the years and the future of Quenns too. ha ha ha So no more tire shops, hub cap shops and autobody shops by Citifield anymore in the future?? Where is everybody gonna go once it's all gone?? They all seemed to be clusterd in that same area!! ha ha ha Anyway, great pics guys! I did enjoy them. Ok back to work for me. ha ha ha

[Analog96]

OK, so we've established that there are plenty of microclimates, with literally a block or two marking their difference in some cases. So, I'm still wondering how a some bigger buildings a mile or more away from LGA is gonna have an big effect on the temps there (and mind you by LGA I'm referring specifically to the ASOS location).

Also, I believe our argument (at least I know mine was) mostly about DAYtime temperatures. Everyone knows that temperatures can vary greatly at night, especially in optimal radiative conditions, with clear skies and light or no wind.

[ag3]

Wow this thread has been a great history lesson of sorts on the development of Queens over the years and the future of Quenns too. ha ha ha So no more tire shops, hub cap shops and autobody shops by Citifield anymore in the future?? Where is everybody gonna go once it's all gone?? They all seemed to be clusterd in that same area!! ha ha ha Anyway, great pics guys! I did enjoy them. Ok back to work for me. ha ha ha

That area has been fought in court for years by the junk yards and the developers. The junk yards have lost and eminant domain has been placed on them.

The development has now begun. First is the plumbing, which has already started.

In the next 10 years, that area will look drastically different and will be a 5,000+ resident mini-city. But Ray says that wont create any Urban heat effect and wont affect LGA which is yards away.

We will go from this:

To this:

[Analog96]

That area has been fought in court for years by the junk yards and the developers. The junk yards have lost and eminant domain has been placed on them.

The development has now begun. First is the plumbing, which has already started.

In the next 10 years, that area will look drastically different and will be a 5,000+ resident mini-city. But Ray says that wont create any Urban heat effect and wont affect LGA which is yards away.

I agree with Ray. It's already a commercial area, which assumes that air conditioning and heating have to be used there. These are mostly car garages we're talking about, right? Many of them use lots of machinery, which pump out lots of BTUs every day. It's not like we're talking about a state park being turned into an urban jungle. In a way, the residences may actually REDUCE the UHI there.