dabize Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 LOL, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. This post is a gem for the ages. That's cheap, vague and smacks of the playground - not a terribly effective tactic among people who work with details and understand their importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The current state of warfare by denialists is responsible for this The perpetual assault by paid shills of their political enemies has not exactly made private discussions a likely venue for judicious objectivity. These folks would have to be both saints and ineffective losers to ignore what is around them. You are asking for the Moon. But maybe you know that...... The scientists know they are in a street fight, brought on by the deniers. The guy who throws the first punch does not necessarily end up in the penalty box but the one who retaliates usually does. One of the e-mails stated a climate scientist to wish for the death of one of the deniers. I agree, as the deniers will be the death of millions. The scientific community is slowly putting together their strategic plan to counter strike in this war against science. All hands on deck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabize Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 The scientists know they are in a street fight, brought on by the deniers. The guy who throws the first punch does not necessarily end up in the penalty box but the one who retaliates usually does. One of the e-mails stated a climate scientist to wish for the death of one of the deniers. I agree, as the deniers will be the death of millions. The scientific community is slowly putting together their strategic plan to counter strike in this war against science. All hands on deck! Quite. It's funny how hypocritical the denialist line on this is - they cheerfully ignore the inevitable consequences of their own behavior while bemoaning the occasional breach of politically correct behavior into which they deliberately goad their opponents. And they HATE political correctness. Mind you, so do I - but I try to be a bit less hypocritical about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah440 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 LOL, the death of millions. LOL. OH NO GLOBAL WARMING.. FACT - The warming of the planet has meant the life of millions, an easier life for millions. In 25 years you moonbats will simply be part of a footnote in history, just another cult relegated to footnote status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 LOL, the death of millions. LOL. OH NO GLOBAL WARMING.. FACT - The warming of the planet has meant the life of millions, an easier life for millions. In 25 years you moonbats will simply be part of a footnote in history, just another cult relegated to footnote status. Interesting to note that just today - all the way from New Zealand, comes news that the Heartland funded disinformation campaign has defined nine "Fantasy Themes' #5 - Climate change as religion #6 - Environmentalism as religion The Fantasy themes are 'acted out by stereotypical create a self-supporting belief system:'http://hot-topic.co.nz/what-becomes-of-the-broken-heartland/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+co%2FRbRF+%28Hot+Topic%29 Not your grandpa's propaganda machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 LOL, the death of millions. LOL. OH NO GLOBAL WARMING.. FACT - The warming of the planet has meant the life of millions, an easier life for millions. In 25 years you moonbats will simply be part of a footnote in history, just another cult relegated to footnote status. Hey cheetah, How thick is the ice on Nutting Lake? Care to drive that snowmobile out onto it? Just kidding. Look, if you guys can convince the National Academy of Sciences to change their stand on AGW then we will drop everything. It's going to take one hell of a pile of convincing scientific evidence to make that happen. Good luck....we are all wishing you the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 An interesting link http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Heartland-Institute-Leaks-Highlight-Astroturf-Quackery-118418 exposes some of Heartland's other good works. They've been telling governing bodies that internet access costs have to be kept high while bandwidth should be restricted. Taking money from ATT, Comcast, Time-Warner Cable and probably an internet provider near you. Nice guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah440 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hey cheetah, How thick is the ice on Nutting Lake? Care to drive that snowmobile out onto it? Just kidding. Look, if you guys can convince the National Academy of Sciences to change their stand on AGW then we will drop everything. It's going to take one hell of a pile of convincing scientific evidence to make that happen. Good luck....we are all wishing you the best. Ask the people in Europe or Japan how deep the snow is or the cold. Death everywhere from cold, not from warm... http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/more-than-220-dead-as-europe-freezes-20120204-1qyan.html http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/death-toll-mounts-as-europe-freezes-over/story-e6frg6so-1226263140460 So far globally it's very cold, even if it has been warm here. I love it though, been hitting balls all week in Hudson. We had brown winters in the past too. Don't fear, the Earth is just fine, it will continue to freeze people to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Some confirmations are coming in - from those implicated. http://thinkprogress...ations-project/ Sad thing is that the next time someone needs to buy some bad science they'll drag these guys out again. What do they tell their kids that they do for a living? http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/28/162077/tornado-global-warming/?mobile=nc Should probably find other sources than Think Progress, the online voice of the Center for American Progress, a highly politicized Dem think-tank funded heavily by George Soros. What some people think Fox is, on the conservative side, Think Progress really is, on the radical, hard left side. Just saying, this misconception that the people who want action on climate change are actually advancing an anti-capitalist agenda isn't helped when one uses anti-capitalist sources. I suspect anyone whose only source is WUWT would be rather roundly criticized. I usually stay slient in a forum that seems more a proxy for PR than an actual place of reasoned debate, because I'm not a climate expert. Just pointing out that Think Progress may not be the best source for factual reporting, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 LOL, the death of millions. LOL. OH NO GLOBAL WARMING.. FACT - The warming of the planet has meant the life of millions, an easier life for millions. In 25 years you moonbats will simply be part of a footnote in history, just another cult relegated to footnote status. I did my one meaningful post of the month for the Climate Change subforum, since we are banned from politics here, as the one most corrosively toxic uber-liberal is, and almost all the conservatives are, (because the head admin tolerates no meaningful dissent on political issues), I'll take my leave of this forum for a while, as I suggest you do also, No reason to get banned from AmWx when Hurricane Season 2012 is bound to be more interesting than 2011. I don't know climate science, you don't know climate science, LEK and Turtle have degrees in a somewhat related area, and red taggers almost have to beg to get banned, so if I were you, I'd leave this forum to the anti-capitalists who aren't satisfied with the PR echo chamber and the few people who are actually informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Ask the people in Europe or Japan how deep the snow is or the cold. Death everywhere from cold, not from warm... http://news.smh.com....0204-1qyan.html http://www.theaustra...o-1226263140460 So far globally it's very cold, even if it has been warm here. I love it though, been hitting balls all week in Hudson. We had brown winters in the past too. Don't fear, the Earth is just fine, it will continue to freeze people to death. How cold? Very cold? NOAA: Global temperatures 19th warmest on record for January 'The globe experienced its 19th warmest January since record keeping began in 1880. Arctic sea ice extent was the fourth smallest extent on record for January at 7.5 percent below average. Additionally, La Niña conditions continued during January 2012. According to NOAA's Climate Prediction Center, La Niña is expected to dissipate during the Northern Hemisphere spring. January 2012 marks the coolest month since January 2008. However, January 2012 also marks the 26th January and 323rd consecutive month with a global temperature above the 20th century average. The last month with below average temperatures was February 1985. That makes 112 Januaries going back to 1880 which were colder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah440 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I did my one meaningful post of the month for the Climate Change subforum, since we are banned from politics here, as the one most corrosively toxic uber-liberal is, and almost all the conservatives are, (because the head admin tolerates no meaningful dissent on political issues), I'll take my leave of this forum for a while, as I suggest you do also, No reason to get banned from AmWx when Hurricane Season 2012 is bound to be more interesting than 2011. I don't know climate science, you don't know climate science, LEK and Turtle have degrees in a somewhat related area, and red taggers almost have to beg to get banned, so if I were you, I'd leave this forum to the anti-capitalists who aren't satisfied with the PR echo chamber and the few people who are actually informed. Don't worry about me Ed, I'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 All this verbiage - yet not a word to refute the accusations. Telling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabize Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hey cheetah, How thick is the ice on Nutting Lake? Care to drive that snowmobile out onto it?. As a fellow denizen of the Lowell/Acton/Sudbury region of Eastern MA, that's a bit tough. The guy's already all wet - this exercise would be superfluous. How much snow did we get this year anyway?. I counted about 8" total, including the 2" of glop on Halloween......... Remember that run of years we had not too long ago when there were over 90-100 days of snow cover per winter here? Weather not climate, I know, but this year has been the worst in my memory locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csnavywx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Wait... we're using a rather nebulous data set and period from about 800-1000 years ago as a valid analog to today (to explain the warming)? Data collection and scientific understanding of the atmosphere have come leaps and bounds over the past 40-50 years. These posts assault the mind. If I went about using such logic and methods to produce a forecast, they'd be a (regular) spectacular failure. Folks (and this includes just about everybody in here), don't let someone else do your thinking for you. Personally, after having looked at the evidence and other macro-scale effects (like fossil fuel depletion), that the short to medium term temperatures predicted by most GCMs seems reasonable (if perhaps somewhat underdone), but in the longer term (20+ years ahead), they have little value because of the combined effects of: 1) Non-linear feedback 2) A realistic fossil fuel depletion scenario (of which there are precious few), which would significantly slow CO2 emissions 3) Unpredictable geopolitical developments as a result of AGW, #1 and #2 Basically the errors compound too much beyond this horizon to make them truly useful as they are currently constructed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastFromTheEast Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Wait... we're using a rather nebulous data set and period from about 800-1000 years ago as a valid analog to today (to explain the warming)? Data collection and scientific understanding of the atmosphere have come leaps and bounds over the past 40-50 years. These posts assault the mind. If I went about using such logic and methods to produce a forecast, they'd be a (regular) spectacular failure. Folks (and this includes just about everybody in here), don't let someone else do your thinking for you. Personally, after having looked at the evidence and other macro-scale effects (like fossil fuel depletion), that the short to medium term temperatures predicted by most GCMs seems reasonable (if perhaps somewhat underdone), but in the longer term (20+ years ahead), they have little value because of the combined effects of: 1) Non-linear feedback 2) A realistic fossil fuel depletion scenario (of which there are precious few), which would significantly slow CO2 emissions 3) Unpredictable geopolitical developments as a result of AGW, #1 and #2 Basically the errors compound too much beyond this horizon to make them truly useful as they are currently constructed. :clap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow_Miser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Wait... we're using a rather nebulous data set and period from about 800-1000 years ago as a valid analog to today (to explain the warming)? Data collection and scientific understanding of the atmosphere have come leaps and bounds over the past 40-50 years. No. Some refuse to accept the climatic history of this Earth, unfortunately, so the MWP needs to be discussed in great detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Wait... we're using a rather nebulous data set and period from about 800-1000 years ago as a valid analog to today (to explain the warming)? Data collection and scientific understanding of the atmosphere have come leaps and bounds over the past 40-50 years. These posts assault the mind. If I went about using such logic and methods to produce a forecast, they'd be a (regular) spectacular failure. Folks (and this includes just about everybody in here), don't let someone else do your thinking for you. Personally, after having looked at the evidence and other macro-scale effects (like fossil fuel depletion), that the short to medium term temperatures predicted by most GCMs seems reasonable (if perhaps somewhat underdone), but in the longer term (20+ years ahead), they have little value because of the combined effects of: 1) Non-linear feedback 2) A realistic fossil fuel depletion scenario (of which there are precious few), which would significantly slow CO2 emissions 3) Unpredictable geopolitical developments as a result of AGW, #1 and #2 Basically the errors compound too much beyond this horizon to make them truly useful as they are currently constructed. Climate modeling is not dependent on knowledge of beginning conditions such as is the case with weather forecasting. The modeling of climate is a boundary problem, where if you change a single parameter, the whole system shifts by some amount. It does not matter if 3.7W/m^2 were applied to the system 15 million years ago or 50 years from now, the system warms in response. How much and how fast is dependent on other variables which take place during that warming. Compounding of errors when assumptions are used for new iterative starting conditions in weather forecasting are not an issue . We don't rely on that type of model to produce the Planck Response (1.2C) or assess likely climate sensitivity (2C-4.5C) / 2X CO2. We will not run out of fossil fuels or slow down sufficiently before atmospheric concentrations have well more than doubled by mid and late 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherRusty Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 No. Some refuse to accept the climatic history of this Earth, unfortunately, so the MWP needs to be discussed in great detail. The scientific community fully accepts the MWP. The climate change community of scientists are who created recognition of Earth's climate history. What you say makes no sense. What you are trying to do is make assumptions about the nature of the MWP which are not recognized as factual based on the available scientific evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Heartlands ties to ExxonMobil may be tighter than I had been aware Walter F. Buchholtz, an ExxonMobil executive, serves as Heartland's Government Relations Advisor, according to Heartland's 2005 IRS Form 990 according to http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WxMidwest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. So it's your contention that if Global Warming scenario's play out as forecast, it would be so radical and expensive to do anything - that no one should consider it? I believe that is : Fantasy Theme #9 'climate change mitigation as money-spinning scam' as used by the 'Institute of Public Affairs', and Australian think tank linked to Heartland Institute. It's fascinating how these fabrications make their way around the globe. Thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah440 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 As a fellow denizen of the Lowell/Acton/Sudbury region of Eastern MA, that's a bit tough. The guy's already all wet - this exercise would be superfluous. How much snow did we get this year anyway?. I counted about 8" total, including the 2" of glop on Halloween......... Remember that run of years we had not too long ago when there were over 90-100 days of snow cover per winter here? Weather not climate, I know, but this year has been the worst in my memory locally. So what are you saying? That because we are having a warm and snowless winter that it is linked to man caused climate change? Are you implying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithiaWx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. Nice post! This really lays out the reasons why we need to look harder at solutions for our massive amounts of carbon release and try and find solutions that will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipS Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. Your unsupported opinion is noted. Thank you for sharing it - I'm sure we are all enlightened by your contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheetah440 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. And people who have left a career in one field and joined "green" energy would benefit greatly. Do you know anyone, a single person, in the "green" energy field who does not believe in man caused climate change? Meanwhile, these same people gutter snipe people who work in various fields remotely connected to real energy exploration. hmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 and those oil and gas and mining companies fund entire wings of sciences and dictate what can and can't be presented at some scientific conferences. surely your lofty principles of free discussion will compel you to denounce that behavior. And of course also fund the propaganda organizations that are the interest of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewave Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Regardless of Climate Change or not, the solutions to "prevent" it are so radical and not conditioned in current economic realities no thinking person would ever consider them. If India/China don't get on board, it's game over anyway, welcome to the real world. The solutions are fantasy-land regardless of the political outcome. Carbon Credits (worthless), Geo-engineering (arrogance), Useless supra-governmental agencies, and a threat to economic freedom worldwide are NOT solutions for me or you. The only people who would benefit from such solutions are the makers who have created them as Hegelian response to take control as we go from a controlled petro based economy to a contrived regulatory and alt. energy economy. That doesn't sound like much of a choice for the common man. The whole carbon credits scheme is doomed to fail anyway. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/12/us-iata-idUSTRE81B06Y20120212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The whole carbon credits scheme is doomed to fail anyway. http://www.reuters.c...E81B06Y20120212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The whole carbon credits scheme is doomed to fail anyway. http://www.reuters.c...E81B06Y20120212 Is this intended as part of the " to late to do anything now" propaganda meme pushed by the paid hacks at Heartland? If so, while addressing EU airline regs re carbon, I don't think it's saying the whole carbon credit thing is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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