Now we know who pays our trolls

[LakeEffectKing]

Do you disagree with the general premise of the thread that companies have a vested interest in the tone of the global warming debate? I mean let's not kid ourselves...misinformation is a huge part of this political debate. Why do you only seem to argue with the most ridiculous proponents of AGW is this forum? Why, over the past few weeks do I constitently see you trolling threads, and never saying anything to people like Cheetah and Turtlehurricane who have made just as many ridiculous statements as those on the other side? You do understand that Cheetah doesn't know a damn thing about AGW, right? He was banned from AP so he's trying to make CC into his own personal AP.

All companies have a vested interest (FF and non-FF). I only "troll" (as you see it), those who are trolling the skeptic's side. You could say the same to Rusty wrt Terry or diabize..but it's all perspective...isn't it Nick???....I mean lines have been drawn..right??..Us skeptics are part of the problem, but we are supposed to take it??? So we go over the edge a bit during heated discussion....big deal.

[Tropopause_Fold]

At the current rate (about 2ppm/year) it would be another 80 years or so, but we both know as the world economy grows so will the emission rate. We could slow it down with the rapid additional application of low/zero carbon fuels but we are likely to experience most of a doubling regardless. The world can not just drop the use of fossil fuels.

We will have to adapt to a warmer world no matter what at this point. We can only hope to limit the extent of the warming.

ok. good. figured you might say that.

so maybe 3/4 of a century from now we might have some problems to deal with as the earth sits ~1-1.5C or so warmer than now. before then, less certainty...and in the immediate future (~decade or so), no real issues. and of course, as you alluded to, there's really nothing we can do about it but prepare to make some changes at some point down the road as "that ship has already sailed" so-to-speak.

i'll take my chances.

[TerryM]

Perhaps an effort to remain on topic might help. There are threads arguing just about every aspect of Global Warming, (or Climate Change). I'm at a loss as to why someone arguing for instance that there was less Arctic Ice 10yrs or 100yrs ago - wouldn't go to the Arctic Ice Extent thread and make his case.

The only reason to use this thread for such an off topic use, that I can think of. would be to disrupt this thread.

[OSUmetstud]

All companies have a vested interest (FF and non-FF). I only "troll" (as you see it), those who are trolling the skeptic's side. You could say the same to Rusty wrt Terry or diabize..but it's all perspective...isn't it Nick???....I mean lines have been drawn..right??..Us skeptics are part of the problem, but we are supposed to take it??? So we go over the edge a bit during heated discussion....big deal.

well i guess I hold you to a higher standard...I mostly read, and it does dismay to some degree how some people get so ridculous and hysterical about global warming...I think they muddy the issue. Also, there are some people who never will belive it no matter what evidence is presented. I have responded to people on the pro-side who were cleary incorrect in rather rudimentary meteorology. Do you think high fiving and making jokes with Cheetah makes you look like an authority and reasonable on the issue? I personally think it makes you closed-minded and dismissive.

[Tropopause_Fold]

nope.

yep.

he didn't say anything about global cooling. i don't think that was his point.

[cheetah440]

All companies have a vested interest (FF and non-FF). I only "troll" (as you see it), those who are trolling the skeptic's side. You could say the same to Rusty wrt Terry or diabize..but it's all perspective...isn't it Nick???....I mean lines have been drawn..right??..Us skeptics are part of the problem, but we are supposed to take it??? So we go over the edge a bit during heated discussion....big deal.

No LEK, I'm bad. I'm not a liberal and I don't believe ALL the hype around AGW. I'm the problem. Eliminate me and more like me and the cultists will be happy.

Nick doesn't realize that I posted in the CC forum for a good 2 yrs before he and his cohorts ever saw me in AP. Amassed a few thousand posts and was actually criticized for not posting in the other forums. Nick doesn't realize that I first started posting at Eastern because of this issue.

Nick's trying his best, expect a few more to try as well.

[LakeEffectKing]

well i guess I hold you to a higher standard...I mostly read, and it does dismay to some degree how some people get so ridculous and hysterical about global warming...I think they muddy the issue. Also, there are some people who never will belive it no matter what evidence is presented. I have responded to people on the pro-side who were cleary incorrect in rather rudimentary meteorology. Do you think high fiving and making jokes with Cheetah makes you look like an authority and reasonable on the issue? I personally think it makes you closed-minded and dismissive.

Sorry to disappoint you....

I look at this forum as a place to let down one's hair a bit, most that enter here are hardened enough to accept some jabbing....

I have no such aspirations to "look like an authority" on the CC subject....having fun with posters is part of enjoying life...sorry if it is offensive to some.

I've "high fived" skier many times over at Eastern....I've had civil discussions with Friv....agreed a time or two with Phillip.....Rusty is an enigma to me, but an entertaining one and share some commonality. Some of the more extreme (warmist) opinions here (from my perspective) I'll get a bit snippy....but all in good fun, for me....

Others?...meh....they might need to get out a bit more.

[cheetah440]

Sorry to disappoint you....

I look at this forum as a place to let down one's hair a bit, most that enter here are hardened enough to accept some jabbing....

I have no such aspirations to "look like an authority" on the CC subject....having fun with posters is part of enjoying life...sorry if it is offensive to some.

I've "high fived" skier many times over at Eastern....I've had civil discussions with Friv....agreed a time or two with Phillip.....Rusty is an enigma to me, but an entertaining one and share some commonality. Some of the more extreme (warmist) opinions here (from my perspective) I'll get a bit snippy....but all in good fun, for me....

Others?...meh....they might need to get out a bit more.

Remember the battles I used to have with Rainshadow a few years ago? I ended up golfing with him and his wife a few yrs ago.

Nick has an axe to grind, nothing more. It's not about you it's about me. Kinda sad to see it too.

[OSUmetstud]

Sorry to disappoint you....

I look at this forum as a place to let down one's hair a bit, most that enter here are hardened enough to accept some jabbing....

I have no such aspirations to "look like an authority" on the CC subject....having fun with posters is part of enjoying life...sorry if it is offensive to some.

I've "high fived" skier many times over at Eastern....I've had civil discussions with Friv....agreed a time or two with Phillip.....Rusty is an enigma to me, but an entertaining one and share some commonality. Some of the more extreme (warmist) opinions here (from my perspective) I'll get a bit snippy....but all in good fun, for me....

Others?...meh....they might need to get out a bit more.

fair enough.

[OSUmetstud]

Remember the battles I used to have with Rainshadow a few years ago? I ended up golfing with him and his wife a few yrs ago.

Nick has an axe to grind, nothing more. It's not about you it's about me. Kinda sad to see it too.

nah...I actually respect him. Just wondering where he was coming from. You on the other hand...

[cheetah440]

nah...I actually respect him. Just wondering where he was coming from. You on the other hand...

I've seen your act, it's tired.

[LakeEffectKing]

nah...I actually respect him. Just wondering where he was coming from. You on the other hand...

I've seen your act, it's tired.

It's funny (a bit OT) but my closest friends (other than my wife) typically have differing ideological views than I. I bet if we all had a beer summit, we'd find commonality! It happened during the '07 LES chase! Great times!

Discussion boards are to let off steam.....not to assess others' personalities.....meet 'em if you want to do that most efficiently.

[cheetah440]

It's funny (a bit OT) but my closest friends (other than my wife) typically have differing ideological views than I. I bet if we all had a beer summit, we'd find commonality! It happened during the '07 LES chase! Great times!

Discussion boards are to let off steam.....not to assess others' personalities.....meet 'em if you want to do that most efficiently.

I agree. Like I said about Tony, I had a great time meeting him.

What fun is it to be on a discussion board with people who are completely like minded anyway? Boring. And I'll admit, while doing battle I will take in something from the other side.

[TerryM]

Nina Fedoroff, the president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) ...

She confessed that she was now “scared to death” by the anti-science movement that was spreading, uncontrolled, across the US and the rest of the western world.

I may disagree about the 'uncontrolled', seems to me it's bought and paid for. If the energy companies quit paying the bills, the whole thing would collapse. People are not that stupid unless deliberately mislead.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/feb/19/science-scepticism-usdomesticpolicy

[Ginx snewx]

nope.

Yep

[bluewave]

protect our kids? really? seriously?

here's what i do to protect my kids...and i bet it's not a whole lot different than what most folks do: i put up bumpers on my kitchen table so they don't whack their foreheads, i put child safety locks on the toilet so my 1-yr old doesn't reach his hand in there, i put annoying child safety locks on my kitchen cabinets so they can't get at the household cleaners, i lock my doors and windows so no one can break into my home, i put smoke/CO detectors in the house, i put gates on the stairs so they can't fall down them, i make sure they are properly vaccinated, i try to get them to eat healthy foods and get exercise, i teach them not to walk into the road and to avoid talking to strangers, i take them for well visits and get them meds when they are sick, i make sure they are safely strapped into their car seats, i pay my mortgage so they have a safe place to live, i put away money every week to save for college...just a short list of things i do to protect my kids...things i can control.

here's what i worry about...here's a few things that keep me up at night: i worry about things like cancer, i worry about child predators, house fires and car accidents. i worry about my kids choking, drowning or getting lost in the woods

here's what i don't care about...here's a couple of things that just don't worry me when discussing my childrens' well-being: i'm not too concerned about arctic ice melt or inches of sea level rise. i'm not worried about a longer growing season or about shrinking himalayan glaciers. i don't worry about animal migration patterns and i don't fret much about bear populations.

you think it's about "wingnuts and oil interests". it's not that at all - at least not for me. for me...it's that i just don't care. it doesn't matter enough. the amount of proverbial crap that could hit the fan in the next 50, 100, 1000 years is mind-boggling. and the reality is climate change is a drop in the bucket of concern.

I think with the global political and economic system being what it is, this is a common sense approach.

You are smart enough tho realize that you have no input into big issues like global warming so you focus

on practical aspects which you can affect. People have to realize that the economy runs on what next

quarters corporate profits are going to be. The current system is not geared for long range planning.

An individual has no chance changing that reality and should not feel responsible for any changes that

the earth may experience as a result. It's enough of a challenge for most people to just make a positive

on impact on their immediate circumstances.

[The_Global_Warmer]

protect our kids? really? seriously?

here's what i do to protect my kids...and i bet it's not a whole lot different than what most folks do: i put up bumpers on my kitchen table so they don't whack their foreheads, i put child safety locks on the toilet so my 1-yr old doesn't reach his hand in there, i put annoying child safety locks on my kitchen cabinets so they can't get at the household cleaners, i lock my doors and windows so no one can break into my home, i put smoke/CO detectors in the house, i put gates on the stairs so they can't fall down them, i make sure they are properly vaccinated, i try to get them to eat healthy foods and get exercise, i teach them not to walk into the road and to avoid talking to strangers, i take them for well visits and get them meds when they are sick, i make sure they are safely strapped into their car seats, i pay my mortgage so they have a safe place to live, i put away money every week to save for college...just a short list of things i do to protect my kids...things i can control.

here's what i worry about...here's a few things that keep me up at night: i worry about things like cancer, i worry about child predators, house fires and car accidents. i worry about my kids choking, drowning or getting lost in the woods

here's what i don't care about...here's a couple of things that just don't worry me when discussing my childrens' well-being: i'm not too concerned about arctic ice melt or inches of sea level rise. i'm not worried about a longer growing season or about shrinking himalayan glaciers. i don't worry about animal migration patterns and i don't fret much about bear populations.

you think it's about "wingnuts and oil interests". it's not that at all - at least not for me. for me...it's that i just don't care. it doesn't matter enough. the amount of proverbial crap that could hit the fan in the next 50, 100, 1000 years is mind-boggling. and the reality is climate change is a drop in the bucket of concern.

It's great to see that you are a great attentive parent.

I am not going to tell you That AGW is going to ruin the planet. I don't know.

I dont understand how you can say you don't care about those AGW things if you are here. posting here in itself shows you care by default.

I hope you keep coming back here for those updates on the science of AGW. We do a pretty good job. Expecially in the present

[cheetah440]

It's great to see that you are a great attentive parent.

I am not going to tell you That AGW is going to ruin the planet. I don't know.

I dont understand how you can say you don't care about those AGW things if you are here. posting here in itself shows you care by default.

I hope you keep coming back here for those updates on the science of AGW. We do a pretty good job. Expecially in the present

Since you admit you don't know, can you understand why some of us aren't willing to see our way of life ruined because some are saying if we don't act in such a way our planet is ruined?

[Ginx snewx]

Since you admit you don't know, can you understand why some of us aren't willing to see our way of life ruined because some are saying if we don't act in such a way our planet is ruined?

George Carlin pretty much sums my feelings up

“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this ****. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a **** about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your ****, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”

Plastic…***hole.”

― George Carlin

[cheetah440]

George Carlin pretty much sums my feelings up

“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this ****. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a **** about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your ****, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”

Plastic…***hole.”

― George Carlin

so good. I wonder how much the heartland paid him for this. Must have been a lot.

[ORH_wxman]

Amazing how bad Peter Gleick has disgraced himself.

[The_Global_Warmer]

Since you admit you don't know, can you understand why some of us aren't willing to see our way of life ruined because some are saying if we don't act in such a way our planet is ruined?

I understand completely. I do think this forum is set up for the science not the other stuff or flub. I just want those threads seperated. What people prefer there politicians to do is not my choice.

I am here for the science and have a gathering place for information and great debate on the science.

[Ginx snewx]

Amazing how bad Peter Gleick has disgraced himself.

boy oh boy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ethicists-blast-chair-of-science-ethics-panel-for-taking-global-warming-skeptic-groups-papers/2012/02/22/gIQAMZqjTR_story.html?tid=pm_politics_pop

[WeatherRusty]

I understand completely. I do think this forum is set up for the science not the other stuff or flub. I just want those threads seperated. What people prefer there politicians to do is not my choice.

I am here for the science and have a gathering place for information and great debate on the science.

I am quite convinced that the scientific basis for AGW is sound and robust science. What the actual climatic outcome will be and how the consequential impacts to society and the biosphere will play out is somewhat more fuzzy. I base my arguments on that range of uncertainty, which I believe represents the state of today's science.

For that I am considered somewhat of an enigma by some. Am I a luke warmer, a centrist or an alarmist? What do you think?

Because I find the science sound and robust, I believe it prudent to plan accordingly. What that means in terms of mitigation and adaptation is up to the world to decide. Doing nothing is a decision too. Doing nothing because of denial of the science is very foolish in my opinion.

We need a clear separation between the science and the politics of mitigation. We should not deny the science out of fear for its' consequences. If we collectively decide mitigation to be beyond our means, then so be it. Personally, I feel we will not meet the challenge.

[PhillipS]

Amazing how bad Peter Gleick has disgraced himself.

There is an interesting column on the morality of Gleick's actions - The Morality of Unmasking Heartland. It's well worth a read whether you feel Gleick is a villian or a hero.

One aspect of this affair that I haven't seen much discussion of is that Peter Gleick stepped forward on his own accord and accepted responsibility for his actions. Nobody had accused him - he made no attempt to coverup his actions - he knew that he is going to receive serious consequences for his actions - and he still did the mature thing and 'fessed up.

Contrast Gleick's coming forward with the Climategate hackers - it's been more than two years and nobody has admitted hacking the emails. Why won't the hacker or hackers man up and accept responsibility for their actions? I mean if they are proud of what they did, if they did the right thing for the greater good, I would think that they would want recognition for their actions. Perhaps they are just too modest. Yeah - I'm sure that's the reason.

[LakeEffectKing]

There is an interesting column on the morality of Gleick's actions - The Morality of Unmasking Heartland. It's well worth a read whether you feel Gleick is a villian or a hero.

One aspect of this affair that I haven't seen much discussion of is that Peter Gleick stepped forward on his own accord and accepted responsibility for his actions. Nobody had accused him - he made no attempt to coverup his actions - he knew that he is going to receive serious consequences for his actions - and he still did the mature thing and 'fessed up.

Contrast Gleick's coming forward with the Climategate hackers - it's been more than two years and nobody has admitted hacking the emails. Why won't the hacker or hackers man up and accept responsibility for their actions? I mean if they are proud of what they did, if they did the right thing for the greater good, I would think that they would want recognition for their actions. Perhaps they are just too modest. Yeah - I'm sure that's the reason.

That is speculation....we have no idea what transpired "behind the scenes" which very well could have left him with no way out (in his own mind). Not sure I'd call that "mature"....and the "hacker" designation of the CRU emails is also, still, speculation....

Defending Gleick (or subtley praising him for some last gasp of maturity) will only serve to splinter the AGW movement further, as can be seen with the "hero or villan" type posings, and the varied responses (already) in the warmists' camps (Revikn and others vs. groups such as Greenpeace, etc.).

[cheetah440]

I understand completely. I do think this forum is set up for the science not the other stuff or flub. I just want those threads seperated. What people prefer there politicians to do is not my choice.

I am here for the science and have a gathering place for information and great debate on the science.

I think there is room for threads purely on the science of climate change but as you can see by the topic of the thread you are in and posting in right here, this ain't about the science. And you're posting in it.

So now a bit back on topic, this is a prime example of why many people are skeptical of the motives of those who are such staunch proponents of "action now". Gleick was a damn chair on science ethics, and look at what he has done. We see statements from leading climate scientist that " we have to get rid of the MWP" and then suddenly, the MWP disappears from the 2001 IPCC report. Convenient and also somewhat too coincidental. Then we have the email scandal which clearly shows a non scientific approach to this science field. They make the climate science community look like some form of mafia. And as a backdrop to all of this you have the leading climate science community and all those who follow it ringing the alarm bells and calling for "action now", action that will fundamentally and dramatically change our lives. Action that will cost trillions. We're told that while all this may look bad,(the emails, Gleick etc) it really isn't. These people care and just know more than the rest of us and the ends justifies the means. Read what the blogs are saying about Gleick, hell he's becoming a hero.

And when a key pipeline from Alberta to Texas is prevented, it is because of this movement. This is real life. This is real jobs. This is real energy independence. The oil will be used, if not by us by the Chinese or Indians or someone. But now, it won't be us. And while our gas prices go up, the group who follow the "science" smile as we grow economically weaker, but the oil will still get used.

So while I see your point and want you to have threads purely scientific in nature, this subject isn't just about the science. It hasn't been for a long time and the science that many of us feel is not resolved, is causing major policy decisions that are important and effect our lives in a big way.

[cheetah440]

There is an interesting column on the morality of Gleick's actions - The Morality of Unmasking Heartland. It's well worth a read whether you feel Gleick is a villian or a hero.

One aspect of this affair that I haven't seen much discussion of is that Peter Gleick stepped forward on his own accord and accepted responsibility for his actions. Nobody had accused him - he made no attempt to coverup his actions - he knew that he is going to receive serious consequences for his actions - and he still did the mature thing and 'fessed up.

Contrast Gleick's coming forward with the Climategate hackers - it's been more than two years and nobody has admitted hacking the emails. Why won't the hacker or hackers man up and accept responsibility for their actions? I mean if they are proud of what they did, if they did the right thing for the greater good, I would think that they would want recognition for their actions. Perhaps they are just too modest. Yeah - I'm sure that's the reason.

Nice theme, deniers and the Heartland group are like Nazis therefore the good justifies his actions.

sickening article.

[OSUmetstud]

George Carlin pretty much sums my feelings up

“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this ****. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a **** about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your ****, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”

Plastic…***hole.”

― George Carlin

I get this post..and George Carlin is the man. Eventually humans will probably blow themselves up, but the earth will still be here, trucking along. However, that doesn't mean I think we should be foolhardy in the way we treat the planet, our future generations, and the animals by polluting and dumping C02 etc. into the atmosphere. I do think socio-economic and political issues will take the leading roles in problems we need to fix because we don't have the money to focus on this problem all that much right now. It could very well come back to bite us in the ass in a couple hundred or a couple thousand years, but the massive debt, high unemployment, and Iran's sabre-rattling will always take the front seat.

[dabize]

There is an interesting column on the morality of Gleick's actions - The Morality of Unmasking Heartland. It's well worth a read whether you feel Gleick is a villian or a hero.

One aspect of this affair that I haven't seen much discussion of is that Peter Gleick stepped forward on his own accord and accepted responsibility for his actions. Nobody had accused him - he made no attempt to coverup his actions - he knew that he is going to receive serious consequences for his actions - and he still did the mature thing and 'fessed up.

Contrast Gleick's coming forward with the Climategate hackers - it's been more than two years and nobody has admitted hacking the emails. Why won't the hacker or hackers man up and accept responsibility for their actions? I mean if they are proud of what they did, if they did the right thing for the greater good, I would think that they would want recognition for their actions. Perhaps they are just too modest. Yeah - I'm sure that's the reason.

Groups like Heartland have played a huge role in corrupting American politics, and after experiencing some of the consequences of this kind of corrupt influence (e.g. 8 years of the Bush Administration), anything that thwarts them is good. As an American, I take their contribution to the destruction of our political system personally.

I have no idea of where Gleck stands re the law, but I have a hard time condemning what he did "morally" because of why he did it.

He isn't a Linda Tripp in my book - she's evil, and he's not. But this is a political judgment.

Mind you, I can afford this - if I am called as a juror for his case, I would disqualify myself for bias.

He took his chances with the law, and if there is a legal penalty, so be it.

My position is not directly associated with my position on AGW - it is more associated with my opposition to and contempt for Karl Rove style thuggery, which is political and not the subject of this thread.