Now we know who pays our trolls

[SVT450R]

So you feel no sense of responsibility regarding the potential for depriving future generations of the kind of life you find so comfortable. In the face of growing scientific evidence you just don't give a s**t?

And what exactly are future generations going to be deprived from?

[Tropopause_Fold]

I'll try to keep this civil - thats what I was trying to to with this post in the first place.

If you had read my post carefully, you'd have seen that I acknowledge the existence of legitimate differences of opinion on the details of the subject - its the collision of the scientific problems of AGW with a toxic political context that is generating all the heat.

The wingnuts and politcal interests are a subset, not the whole. I am not accusing you, ORHwxman or anyone else who is less alarmed than I about AGW of being or representing them, or (for that matter) of not caring about your kids. It would be nice if you could return the favor and acknowledge that reasonable people can construct a scenario out of what IS known that is alarming, even if this is not the way that you see it yourself.

What is really unfortunate about this is that whatever our political leanings, our minds tend to give more weight to emotional biases than is ideal when we attempt to analyze something logically. This is just a fact of life - it means that politicization of a subject tends to severely damage the quality of thought devoted to it by EVERYONE.

I became concerned about the possibility of AGW years ago - long before I had any knowledge of even a hint of political baggage attached to climate change, and while I was a Cold Warrior (hardly a classic leftie). It is the larger issue (the relentless increase in CO2) rather than the noise attending weather that bothers me. I like to think that I consequently do not suffer from large scale bias about this. The details are another matter - I'm not even competent to discuss them technically, and would probably biased about it if I was.

No doubt you have your own reasons for feeling the way you do. I don't agree with where they take you, but that's life.

fair enough. no real argument from me on this post.

as for the bolded though, that would be challenging and is clearly a subjective matter.

[ORH_wxman]

Good for you.

Had your well informed self noted that this thread is about how Trolls are paid to spew anti-science?

I, even though I slip from time to time, would appreciate an attempt at staying on thread.

Your posting gave us a fine example of how effective the disinformation campaign has been.

Thanks

Some posts...while they disagree with capecodweather.net's opinion...have remained fairly civil and to the point...your post here comes across as obscenely arrogant.

Anti-science? Disinformation campaign? What laughable statements when he made a reasonable post on what most people prioritize in every day life versus the "theory" of CAGW.

[Tropopause_Fold]

So you feel no sense of responsibility regarding the potential for depriving future generations of the kind of life you find so comfortable. In the face of growing scientific evidence you just don't give a s**t?

speaking in the context of AGW, yeah that's fairly close to how i feel.

[Ginx snewx]

So you feel no sense of responsibility regarding the potential for depriving future generations of the kind of life you find so comfortable. In the face of growing scientific evidence you just don't give a s**t?

What will happen? Please inform me so i can prepare them.

[WeatherRusty]

And what exactly are future generations going to be deprived from?

Fossil fuel derived energy, fish, large mammals, stable agriculture, stable climate, water, stable international boundaries, stable coast lines. All a result of poor planning and resource management, which includes disregard for human caused climate change..

[Ginx snewx]

Fossil fuel derived energy, fish, large mammals, stable agriculture, stable climate, water, stable international boundaries, stable coast lines. All a result of poor planning and resource management, which includes disregard for human caused climate change..

what year?

[WeatherRusty]

what year?

Get serious.

[dabize]

fair enough. no real argument from me on this post.

as for the bolded though, that would be challenging and is clearly a subjective matter.

No - I can't accept that.

Assuming a decent grounding in basic science, the large scale/long term consequences of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, where it is demonstrably (Keeling data) building up to levels unprecedented since before the Pleistocene, are indeed obvious.

It doesn't matter a whit what the AO, Arctic sea ice levels etc. has done for the past 50 years.

One might argue about how long it will take for the full effect to be felt, but seeing the larger picture is not challenging or subjective.

I admit that it is possible to think other things are more exigent - I used to think that Homo Sap was going to off himself via nuclear exchange before the turn of the millenium - but anyone who says that my concern about this is unreasonable is either bought, duped or ignorant.

And we CAN do something about it, and it is a business opportunity. My opinion.

[ORH_wxman]

No - I can't accept that.

Assuming a decent grounding in basic science, the large scale/long term consequences of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, where it is demonstrably (Keeling data) building up to levels unprecedented since before the Pleistocene, are indeed obvious.

It doesn't matter a whit what the AO, Arctic sea ice levels etc. has done for the past 50 years.

One might argue about how long it will take for the full effect to be felt, but seeing the larger picture is not challenging or subjective.

I admit that it is possible to think other things are more exigent - I used to think that Homo Sap was going to off himself via nuclear exchange before the turn of the millenium - but anyone who says that my concern about this is unreasonable is either bought, duped or ignorant.

And we CAN do something about it, and it is a business opportunity. My opinion.

What do you think we should do about the next ice age incoming? Its going to happen unless we stop it. Do you think pumping CO2 into the atmosphere might delay it?

[Ginx snewx]

Get serious.

I am, I have been hearing this stuff since the 1970's

[WeatherRusty]

No - I can't accept that.

Assuming a decent grounding in basic science, the large scale/long term consequences of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, where it is demonstrably (Keeling data) building up to levels unprecedented since before the Pleistocene, are indeed obvious.

It doesn't matter a whit what the AO, Arctic sea ice levels etc. has done for the past 50 years.

One might argue about how long it will take for the full effect to be felt, but seeing the larger picture is not challenging or subjective.

I admit that it is possible to think other things are more exigent - I used to think that Homo Sap was going to off himself via nuclear exchange before the turn of the millenium - but anyone who says that my concern about this is unreasonable is either bought, duped or ignorant.

And we CAN do something about it, and it is a business opportunity. My opinion.

Life is about problem solving. When we solve problems we open a whole world of spin off business/innovative opportunity. Mankind has not reached present day prosperity by ignoring problems, we have done so by facing issues head on and solving them.

[Tropopause_Fold]

No - I can't accept that.

Assuming a decent grounding in basic science, the large scale/long term consequences of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, where it is demonstrably (Keeling data) building up to levels unprecedented since before the Pleistocene, are indeed obvious.

It doesn't matter a whit what the AO, Arctic sea ice levels etc. has done for the past 50 years.

One might argue about how long it will take for the full effect to be felt, but seeing the larger picture is not challenging or subjective.

I admit that it is possible to think other things are more exigent - I used to think that Homo Sap was going to off himself via nuclear exchange before the turn of the millenium - but anyone who says that my concern about this is unreasonable is either bought, duped or ignorant.

And we CAN do something about it, and it is a business opportunity. My opinion.

we disagree. and that's ok.

[dabize]

What do you think we should do about the next ice age incoming? Its going to happen unless we stop it. Do you think pumping CO2 into the atmosphere might delay it?

I'm with you on this one - as far as I read the Milankovitch tea leaves, we're at the tail end of the Holocene and are due to go back down toward Wurm - like conditions pretty soon (in geological time)

But this will start in thousands of years and take tens of thousands of years to get us to the extremity of the LGM. My kids won't be bothered.

Even so, although I like snow, I don't want to donate my house to the next Laurentide ice sheet, even posthumously,

Therefore our demonstrated ability to warm the atmosphere enough to keep us out of that would be comforting to me - if only we could quit at that point.

We had probably blocked the onset of the next glacial by the mid 1950s, if not earlier.

[dabize]

Life is about problem solving. When we solve problems we open a whole world of spin off business/innovative opportunity. Mankind has not reached present day prosperity by ignoring problems, we have done so by facing issues head on and solving them.

Exactly.

which is why I am confused by the politics of this.

I understand why Big Oil is against fixing AGW - it's the same reason Liggett tobacco fought research into cigarette toxicity.

I don't understand why regular folks - even those who vote Republican - would go along with it unless they were being systematically misinformed.

And now we know that they are, and even how it is being funded.

[WeatherRusty]

I am, I have been hearing this stuff since the 1970's

Have you noticed what is becoming of fish stocks? Large mammalian species? Growing water shortages. Sea levels will continue to rise. Agricultural demands will expand even as ideal growing conditions shift to new regions. Will we be a net importer of food stuffs rather than an exporter?

Climate change is slow to occur over a given human life time. Since the 1970's? The world is 0.4C warmer than then. What will it be like a century or two from now when it is 3C or 6C warmer than today?

This is a slowly developing problem which we solve with ingenuity and forethought. It is not going to turn catastrophic before your very eyes.

[cheetah440]

protect our kids? really? seriously?

here's what i do to protect my kids...and i bet it's not a whole lot different than what most folks do: i put up bumpers on my kitchen table so they don't whack their foreheads, i put child safety locks on the toilet so my 1-yr old doesn't reach his hand in there, i put annoying child safety locks on my kitchen cabinets so they can't get at the household cleaners, i lock my doors and windows so no one can break into my home, i put smoke/CO detectors in the house, i put gates on the stairs so they can't fall down them, i make sure they are properly vaccinated, i try to get them to eat healthy foods and get exercise, i teach them not to walk into the road and to avoid talking to strangers, i take them for well visits and get them meds when they are sick, i make sure they are safely strapped into their car seats, i pay my mortgage so they have a safe place to live, i put away money every week to save for college...just a short list of things i do to protect my kids...things i can control.

here's what i worry about...here's a few things that keep me up at night: i worry about things like cancer, i worry about child predators, house fires and car accidents. i worry about my kids choking, drowning or getting lost in the woods

here's what i don't care about...here's a couple of things that just don't worry me when discussing my childrens' well-being: i'm not too concerned about arctic ice melt or inches of sea level rise. i'm not worried about a longer growing season or about shrinking himalayan glaciers. i don't worry about animal migration patterns and i don't fret much about bear populations.

you think it's about "wingnuts and oil interests". it's not that at all - at least not for me. for me...it's that i just don't care. it doesn't matter enough. the amount of proverbial crap that could hit the fan in the next 50, 100, 1000 years is mind-boggling. and the reality is climate change is a drop in the bucket of concern.

One of the most refreshing posts I've read in years.

[cheetah440]

Are you denying that oil interests have been politicizing this issue?

W, as president, employed Frank Luntz to study peoples reaction to certain phrases, and to come up with ways to frame the Global Warming issue so that it would be more palatable. The name for doing something like that is propaganda.

That's pretty political.

Al Gore, the former vice-president, in response, presented a documentary film that expressed the viewpoint of mainstream science.

That's pretty political

What on earth could you find in the post that is laughable?

Congrats, you one upped the laughability factor to absurd. Didn't think it was possible, but I underestimate sometimes.

[dabize]

This is a slowly developing problem which we solve with ingenuity and forethought. It is not going to turn catastrophic before your very eyes.

I used to think that too. Now I'm not so sure.

That could be an "amygdala alert" though........

[Tropopause_Fold]

Have you noticed what is becoming of fish stocks? Large mammalian species? Growing water shortages. Sea levels will continue to rise. Agricultural demands will expand even as ideal growing conditions shift to new regions. Will we be a net importer of food stuffs rather than an exporter?

Climate change is slow to occur over a given human life time. Since the 1970's? The world is 0.4C warm than then. What will it be like a century or two from now when it is 3C or 6C warmer than today?

This is a slowly developing problem which we solve with ingenuity and forethought. It is not going to turn catastrophic before your very eyes.

real wrath-of-god type stuff....

fire and brimstone coming down from the sky. Rivers and Seas Boiling!

40 years of darkness! Earthquakes! Volcanoes!

The dead rising from the grave!

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! mass hysteria!

[dabize]

Congrats, you one upped the laughability factor to absurd. Didn't think it was possible, but I underestimate sometimes.

The demonization of Al Gore was a political act. I can see you have bought in.

Gore has been commendably close to the facts in just about everything he has put forward. He's made a couple of misleading suggestions about the time course of Greenland Ice Sheet melting, but his opponents do worse 10 times before breakfast every day.

(cue reference to his mansion)

It is easy to tell sheer trollishness from differences of opinion that may (or not) have roots in politics).

You're a troll.

[FPizz]

Exactly.

which is why I am confused by the politics of this.

I understand why Big Oil is against fixing AGW - it's the same reason Liggett tobacco fought research into cigarette toxicity.

I don't understand why regular folks - even those who vote Republican - would go along with it unless they were being systematically misinformed.

And now we know that they are, and even how it is being funded.

It is because the far majority of people live in the now, and don't care about 75 years from now. People hear temps have warmed xyz, and really don't care because that increase hasn't changed their life one bit. It isn't about who you vote for or politics for the vast majority. Until people see a huge change in their way of life, not many are going to care or put any effort against AGW. Like capecod said, he isn't misinformed, he just doesn't really care. That is how most think, and why AGW is last or near the bottom when polled.

[cheetah440]

The demonization of Al Gore was a political act. I can see you have bought in.

Gore has been commendably close to the facts in just about everything he has put forward. He's made a couple of misleading suggestions about the time course of Greenland Ice Sheet melting, but his opponents do worse 10 times before breakfast every day.

(cue reference to his mansion)

It is easy to tell sheer trollishness from differences of opinion that may (or not) have roots in politics).

You're a troll.

and you don't think that GORE politicized the issue? oh my GOD.

[WeatherRusty]

Exactly.

which is why I am confused by the politics of this.

I understand why Big Oil is against fixing AGW - it's the same reason Liggett tobacco fought research into cigarette toxicity.

I don't understand why regular folks - even those who vote Republican - would go along with it unless they were being systematically misinformed.

And now we know that they are, and even how it is being funded.

For those who may have missed it, the Union of Concerned Scientists back in 2007 produced this report on the underpinnings of the disinformation campaign. Very revealing stuff.

Smoke and Mirrors

[TerryM]

No - I can't accept that.

Assuming a decent grounding in basic science, the large scale/long term consequences of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, where it is demonstrably (Keeling data) building up to levels unprecedented since before the Pleistocene, are indeed obvious.

It doesn't matter a whit what the AO, Arctic sea ice levels etc. has done for the past 50 years.

One might argue about how long it will take for the full effect to be felt, but seeing the larger picture is not challenging or subjective.

I admit that it is possible to think other things are more exigent - I used to think that Homo Sap was going to off himself via nuclear exchange before the turn of the millenium - but anyone who says that my concern about this is unreasonable is either bought, duped or ignorant.

And we CAN do something about it, and it is a business opportunity. My opinion.

Nicely put, and back on topic!

My only complaint is that you appear to be separating the duped from the ignorant. Since one of the stated goals of the disinformation campaign was to spread confusion, those claiming ignorance this far into the campaign are more properly victims. I doubt if anyone intellectually capable of accessing the internet could have remained ignorant of the effects of Global Warming without the machinations of Big Oil.

Heartland Institute learned it's tactics back in the 'smokers rights' days - It isn't necessary to get every rube to believe you, it's enough to create doubt in the science that says this is dangerous.

[dabize]

real wrath-of-god type stuff....

fire and brimstone coming down from the sky. Rivers and Seas Boiling!

40 years of darkness! Earthquakes! Volcanoes!

The dead rising from the grave!

Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! mass hysteria!

See - if you go to Bangladesh; or Tuvalu or the Maldives, you'll see things like arsenic rising from the soil and "volcanoes" of seawater popping up in people's houses.

As for graves, you DO know why they bury people in above ground mausoleums in NO, don't you?

I think Bengalis cremate, but that may be just the Hindus. Anyone who IS buried in Bangladesh (in the delta south of Dacca, anyway) might very well revisit the living at some point.

And the flavor will no doubt be different when it gets here (we have bedrock), but it WILL get here.

[TerryM]

For those who may have missed it, the Union of Concerned Scientists back in 2007 produced this report on the underpinnings of the disinformation campaign. Very revealing stuff.

Smoke and Mirrors

Didn't Exxon promise to quit funding the disinformation campaigns, only to be caught red handed - again?

[dabize]

My only complaint is that you appear to be separating the duped from the ignorant. Since one of the stated goals of the disinformation campaign was to spread confusion, those claiming ignorance this far into the campaign are more properly victims. I doubt if anyone intellectually capable of accessing the internet could have remained ignorant of the effects of Global Warming without the machinations of Big Oil.

Terry, the real menace of the disinformation campaign is that it occurs in a world so flooded with details that most educated people lose their bearings sometimes and spend their lives trying to keep up.

I've come to terms with my ignorance of most of what is known (the details) in most fields in biology, including the cytopathology of neurodegenerative disease. And I'm a cellular neurobiologist who specializes in neurodegenerative disease.

So the disinformation works unless you already know better - and its EVIL.

In a just world, the Heartland project leaders would be tossed in the jug, just as the people who locked the door before the Triangle Fire should have been in 1911.

[LakeEffectKing]

The demonization of Al Gore was a political act. I can see you have bought in.

Gore has been commendably close to the facts in just about everything he has put forward. He's made a couple of misleading suggestions about the time course of Greenland Ice Sheet melting, but his opponents do worse 10 times before breakfast every day.

(cue reference to his mansion)

It is easy to tell sheer trollishness from differences of opinion that may (or not) have roots in politics).

You're a troll.

He has missed the mark on the polar bears plight....and I only remember 1 reference to poodles...not sure how they're doing!

[Ginx snewx]

Have you noticed what is becoming of fish stocks? Large mammalian species? Growing water shortages. Sea levels will continue to rise. Agricultural demands will expand even as ideal growing conditions shift to new regions. Will we be a net importer of food stuffs rather than an exporter?

Climate change is slow to occur over a given human life time. Since the 1970's? The world is 0.4C warmer than then. What will it be like a century or two from now when it is 3C or 6C warmer than today?

This is a slowly developing problem which we solve with ingenuity and forethought. It is not going to turn catastrophic before your very eyes.

Most of which are the result of overpopulation, you are blaming all that on GW?. FYI we were supposed to be 1-2 C warmer by 2012 and depleted of fossil fuels, check the alarmists from the 70s thoughts. The avalanche has become a molasses slide subject to other influences which could dam up any further flow.