PEOPLE UNDER 35 HAVE NEVER SEEN NORMAL GLOBAL TEMPERATURES

[PottercountyWXobserver]

Interesting.

Did any of those animals create paintings or record stories of there lives? Did they love, or invent sky scrappers?

They trudged around... ate, 5hit and slept.

I lean towards AGW, but I agree with this statement. Life before Hominids was pretty much worthless. Really the only other species that mattered before us were probably the dinosaurs.

Hell for the most part, life in general is meaningless even if you are human. Really if anyone is an Atheist, life is one gigantic middle finger.

[michsnowfreak]

The 1950's were incredibly snowless in lower Michigan. We had 5 straight years with a 35% snow deficit. So do you remember the snowless days as a youth, or the big whopper storms. I bet I know the answer to that already.

Anyone who is recalling winters from the 1930s-1960s here as being buried in snow are flat out lying unless they are remembering one of the few and far between big snowstorms of the period. And snow is what most people remember about winter, not if this winter was 1 degree warmer than that winter and so on. And its been happening since the beginning of time. I have old articles from 1880s snowstorms where the "oldest inhabitant" belittled the snowstorms to snows of the 1850s and such. Then I have arcticles from our harsh 1970s winters where old-timers made comments "this is nothing when I was a kid snow covered the ground from Nov through Mar". Its never changed and never will. At least climate data buffs can disprove grandma and grandpa nowadays.

Detroit decade snow avg

1880s 47.3”

1890s 42.7”

1900s 46.3”

1910s 39.7”

1920s 46.1”

1930s 32.9”

1940s 27.6”

1950s 37.8”

1960s 31.8”

1970s 45.6”

1980s 45.2”

1990s 37.2”

2000s 45.3"

[Tropopause_Fold]

The one hallmark of mankind has been our ability to survive and adapt to any climate conditions that we have experienced in the past. I think that surviving the last ice age in Europe was a pretty amazing feat considering the primitive technology that

we had at the time. Technological advancement in the future should help us out with any climate challenges that we face.

There really hasn't been a period of our existence that was not considered dangerous IMHO.

http://www.amnh.org/...istory/life.php

yep. life will go on.

so much of this discussion is just relative to how we want to define things anyway. part of the reason, imo, climate change continues to struggle to "catch on" as a big time concern (it continues to rank very low - at least when i looked it up in 2010) in the view of the general populous is when you step away from the vaccuum of this forum, real life steps in and takes over. and in day-to-day life we have so many issues to think about...so many different things to be concerned about. so many things that are front and center and tangible...things like paying bills, staying healthy, keeping your kids safe, saving money for college, etc etc.

[TerryM]

On this board it seemed to me that the older the commenter, the more likely he was to recognize AGW. I thought this a little strange as it's usually the younger generation that grasps new scientific truths more readily than their elders.

I had not considered that they may simply never have experienced the climatic stability evidenced in my youth. I think I'll try to be a little more sympathetic to their plight, It's probably much more difficult to recognize that something has gone terribly wrong if you have lived your whole life in a very abnormal environment.

[Tropopause_Fold]

On this board it seemed to me that the older the commenter, the more likely he was to recognize AGW. I thought this a little strange as it's usually the younger generation that grasps new scientific truths more readily than their elders.

I had not considered that they may simply never have experienced the climatic stability evidenced in my youth. I think I'll try to be a little more sympathetic to their plight, It's probably much more difficult to recognize that something has gone terribly wrong if you have lived your whole life in a very abnormal environment.

if that is indeed the case...think about that for a minute and realize the implications of that statement.

[Jonger]

Anyone who is recalling winters from the 1930s-1960s here as being buried in snow are flat out lying unless they are remembering one of the few and far between big snowstorms of the period. And snow is what most people remember about winter, not if this winter was 1 degree warmer than that winter and so on. And its been happening since the beginning of time. I have old articles from 1880s snowstorms where the "oldest inhabitant" belittled the snowstorms to snows of the 1850s and such. Then I have arcticles from our harsh 1970s winters where old-timers made comments "this is nothing when I was a kid snow covered the ground from Nov through Mar". Its never changed and never will. At least climate data buffs can disprove grandma and grandpa nowadays.

Detroit decade snow avg

1880s 47.3”

1890s 42.7”

1900s 46.3”

1910s 39.7”

1920s 46.1”

1930s 32.9”

1940s 27.6”

1950s 37.8”

1960s 31.8”

1970s 45.6”

1980s 45.2”

1990s 37.2”

2000s 45.3"

If a flake fell within 50 miles of Detroit.... and within the last 120 years, Josh knows about it. This is fact.

[Jonger]

On this board it seemed to me that the older the commenter, the more likely he was to recognize AGW. I thought this a little strange as it's usually the younger generation that grasps new scientific truths more readily than their elders.

I had not considered that they may simply never have experienced the climatic stability evidenced in my youth. I think I'll try to be a little more sympathetic to their plight, It's probably much more difficult to recognize that something has gone terribly wrong if you have lived your whole life in a very abnormal environment.

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away? edit... of at least try pinning local weather on AGW?

Town

Year

Duration

[LithiaWx]

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away?

Town

Year

Duration

No kidding, even in Atlanta there are good decades and bad decades for snow and cold. There is no rhyme or reason based on human activity. People don't notice .6c degrees of global temperature rise because local climates are highly variable.

[michsnowfreak]

On this board it seemed to me that the older the commenter, the more likely he was to recognize AGW. I thought this a little strange as it's usually the younger generation that grasps new scientific truths more readily than their elders.

I had not considered that they may simply never have experienced the climatic stability evidenced in my youth. I think I'll try to be a little more sympathetic to their plight, It's probably much more difficult to recognize that something has gone terribly wrong if you have lived your whole life in a very abnormal environment.

Climate stability in your youth? You are likely remembering things the way they never were. I see Cambridge, ON as one of the cities in your sig, which is not terribly far from me in SE MI It amazes me how many of a generation older than my own recall winters/summers of their youth with this storybook context of how it always snowed on Christmas, snow always covered the ground all winter, summer was always hot, etc etc...instead of how they really were. They are flat out LYING, whether doing so intentionally or not. Often times when discussing AGW people want to scream "dont talk about LOCAL WEATHER talk about GLOBAL CLIMATE", but in reality the average joe thinks of this based on the climate/weather they experience. And I have studies local climate data for this region very extensively. Temps, precip, snowfall, snow depth. Records dont lie. Every year is different than the last, always has been. But in general, we see a lot more harsh winters now than we did in the 1930s-1960s.

[WeatherRusty]

The one hallmark of mankind has been our ability to survive and adapt to any climate conditions that we have experienced in the past. I think that surviving the last ice age in Europe was a pretty amazing feat considering the primitive technology that

we had at the time. Technological advancement in the future should help us out with any climate challenges that we face.

There really hasn't been a period of our existence that was not considered dangerous IMHO.

http://www.amnh.org/...istory/life.php

I think if you look a bit deeper into the primitive history of mankind you would find that most didn't survive for long outside of the tropics. We are not Neanderthals. Today's humans come from the stock of survivors who made it through the perilous past, exiting many times out of Africa to very slowly populate the world. About 80,000 years ago the breeding human population fell drastically to less than 10,000 humans, likely due to climate change in the aftermath of violent vocanism. We are all the decendents of relatively few fortunate survivors.

Anthropologists believe the human species dates back at least 3 million years. For most of our history, these distant ancestors lived a precarious existence as hunters and gatherers. This way of life kept their total numbers small, probably less than 10 million. However, as agriculture was introduced, communities evolved that could support more people.

World population expanded to about 300 million by A.D. 1 and continued to grow at a moderate rate. But after the start of the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century, living standards rose and widespread famines and epidemics diminished in some regions. Population growth accelerated. The population climbed to about 760 million in 1750 and reached 1 billion around 1800.

Population

[michsnowfreak]

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away? edit... of at least try pinning local weather on AGW?

Town

Year

Duration

His youth would have been the 1950s-60s. If it was in Cambridge, ON, thats not too far NE of Detroit. Stability? In 132 years of record, Detroit has seen 10 winters of less than 20" of snow, and SIX OF THOSE TEN came between 1949 and 1969.

[michsnowfreak]

If a flake fell within 50 miles of Detroit.... and within the last 120 years, Josh knows about it. This is fact.

And not to mention official weather data/obs were taken/treated with more care back then than they are now. Also plenty of coop data available (http://www7.ncdc.noaa.gov/IPS/) which lends credence to the official data.

[WeatherRusty]

Anyone who is recalling winters from the 1930s-1960s here as being buried in snow are flat out lying unless they are remembering one of the few and far between big snowstorms of the period. And snow is what most people remember about winter, not if this winter was 1 degree warmer than that winter and so on. And its been happening since the beginning of time. I have old articles from 1880s snowstorms where the "oldest inhabitant" belittled the snowstorms to snows of the 1850s and such. Then I have arcticles from our harsh 1970s winters where old-timers made comments "this is nothing when I was a kid snow covered the ground from Nov through Mar". Its never changed and never will. At least climate data buffs can disprove grandma and grandpa nowadays.

Detroit decade snow avg

1880s 47.3”

1890s 42.7”

1900s 46.3”

1910s 39.7”

1920s 46.1”

1930s 32.9”

1940s 27.6”

1950s 37.8”

1960s 31.8”

1970s 45.6”

1980s 45.2”

1990s 37.2”

2000s 45.3"

I was not referring to snow. Winters here in New England have warmed by about 4 degrees over the past half century and my personal experience confirms that to generally been the case. The coldest cold is not as cold, nor does the coldest cold last as long. The thermometers don't lie, it was colder back in the 50's and 60's. It was warm back in the 30's but I wasn't around then.

[bluewave]

I think if you look a bit deeper into the primitive history of mankind you would find that most didn't survive for long outside of the tropics. We are not Neanderthals. Today's humans come from the stock of survivors who made it through the perilous past, exiting many times out of Africa to very slowly populate the world. About 80,000 years ago the breeding human population fell drastically to less than 10,000 humans, likely due to climate change in the aftermath of violent vocanism. We are all the decendents of relatively few fortunate survivors.

Population

Correct. That's also without the technology that we have developed since then.

[bluewave]

yep. life will go on.

so much of this discussion is just relative to how we want to define things anyway. part of the reason, imo, climate change continues to struggle to "catch on" as a big time concern (it continues to rank very low - at least when i looked it up in 2010) in the view of the general populous is when you step away from the vaccuum of this forum, real life steps in and takes over. and in day-to-day life we have so many issues to think about...so many different things to be concerned about. so many things that are front and center and tangible...things like paying bills, staying healthy, keeping your kids safe, saving money for college, etc etc.

True. Global warming comes in last with all the pressing matters that people face on a daily basis.

[WeatherRusty]

Correct. That's also without the technology that we have developed since then.

Most people of the world are not as fortunate as you to share in all that technology.

[WeatherRusty]

On this board it seemed to me that the older the commenter, the more likely he was to recognize AGW. I thought this a little strange as it's usually the younger generation that grasps new scientific truths more readily than their elders.

I had not considered that they may simply never have experienced the climatic stability evidenced in my youth. I think I'll try to be a little more sympathetic to their plight, It's probably much more difficult to recognize that something has gone terribly wrong if you have lived your whole life in a very abnormal environment.

The 50's and 60's were quite stable in terms of global climate. Global temperature trend was flat back then...and globally it was ~0.4C cooler than today.

[skierinvermont]

The one hallmark of mankind has been our ability to survive and adapt to any climate conditions that we have experienced in the past. I think that surviving the last ice age in Europe was a pretty amazing feat considering the primitive technology that

we had at the time. Technological advancement in the future should help us out with any climate challenges that we face.

There really hasn't been a period of our existence that was not considered dangerous IMHO.

http://www.amnh.org/...istory/life.php

The question isn't whether we survive.. it is what is the best social political and economic outcome. Do you know the damage that past climate changes have done to our species? And those changes were much MUCH smaller than those expected due to AGW which will literally raise the oceans.

[aslkahuna]

Intelligent life is the most amazing thing ever known or to be known.

Without self awareness... Its all just backdrop.

The world wasnt worthless, because it was moving toward intelligent life. A planet with life is a marvel, but one with intelligent life is beyond amazing.

Too bad intelligent life does not exist on this Planet. The Human Race is renowned for its stupidity.

Steve

[Jonger]

The question isn't whether we survive.. it is what is the best social political and economic outcome. Do you know the damage that past climate changes have done to our species? And those changes were much MUCH smaller than those expected due to AGW which will literally raise the oceans.

It's funny how close of a companionship socialism and AGW advocacy have together. It's like the bit "7 degrees of Kevin Bacon" but you really only need less then 3 connections.

[Jonger]

Too bad intelligent life does not exist on this Planet. The Human Race is renowned for its stupidity.

Steve

I knew someone would pull that easy joke.

[aslkahuna]

I knew someone would pull that easy joke.

Except that I don't consider it a joke but the truth. Our history and stewardship of this Planet (if you want to call it that) prove that.Barring any development of the means to travel in Interstellar Space, this is the only place we have to live and we are hellbent in our zeal to befoul it and make it uninhabitable.

Steve

[TerryM]

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away? edit... of at least try pinning local weather on AGW?

Town

Year

Duration

I'll play

Galt Ontario Canada

1946-1963 (moved to California)

I'd be particularly interested in any records you can locate referencing the freeze/thaw of the Grand River as a local contest guessing the moment the ice broke up was a huge local obsession during the winter. I recall the tail end of a hurricane coming through in the mid 50s, but very little other spectacular weather. Hamilton (40 min east of here) recently upgraded some city systems claiming that winter months have been experiencing much larger climatic shifts than the global average,

Be interesting if you can find any instances of snowless New Years, let alone snowless Ground Hog Days.

Have Fun!

[WeatherRusty]

Too bad intelligent life does not exist on this Planet. The Human Race is renowned for its stupidity.

Steve

The average species hangs around on planet Earth for about 10 million years. Modern humans have been here for just 100,000 to 200,000 years or so. Human intelligence has a long way to go as a trait before it can be praised for it's ability to enhance survival potential.

What other species has such potential for self annihilation? Overpopulation, pollution, Nuclear and AGW.

[WeatherRusty]

It's funny how close of a companionship socialism and AGW advocacy have together. It's like the bit "7 degrees of Kevin Bacon" but you really only need less then 3 connections.

Here comes the politics!

Can you guys just for once separate the politics of mitigation from the science of AGW? Don't want to mitigate. Fine, but don't claim the science bad because of your politics.

[blue sky]

How do we do it. We have never seen normal temperatures. How do we survive? it's amazing!

[Vergent]

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away? edit... of at least try pinning local weather on AGW?

Town

Year

Duration

Natural disasters have tripled.

>4 meter floods have tripled, >6 meter floods have quadrupled.

Tropical storms are up by 50%. The world climate has changed significantly. Of course a average change of less than 1C is hard to notice, but the frequency of strong storms is not. While this activity is not local, in the television age, we all hear the world and national news.

[The_Global_Warmer]

Back to actual science and reality:

I guess Detroit has been spared so far being between the arctic warming and CONUS which is mostly governed by Ocean temps compared to direct arctic amplified warming.

I split 1996-2010 into 1996-2005 and 2006-2010 because of the rapid warming.

[WeatherRusty]

How do we do it. We have never seen normal temperatures. How do we survive? it's amazing!

We struggle with it, that's how. Climate change is distruptive and costly in monetary, logistical and biological terms.

When global temps have risen over 2C more the pressure on civilization, the poor and the biological world will be unpresidented in millions of years. So, it not a question of how we "do it". It's a question of how "will" we do it.

[Vergent]

So when I dig up the climate stability of your youth and prove it wasnt so stable... Will you go away? edit... of at least try pinning local weather on AGW?

Town

Year

Duration

Natural disasters have quadrupled.

http://www.fema.gov/news/disaster_totals_annual.fema#markS

>4 meter floods have tripled, >6 meter floods have quadrupled.

Tropical storms are up by 50%. The world climate has changed significantly. Of course a average change of less than 1C is hard to notice, but the frequency of strong storms is not. While this activity is not local, in the television age, we all hear the world and national news.