90th Anniversary of Knickerbocker Storm

[RodneyS]

The hallmark of this storm was the 2.81 inches of precipitation that fell in DC, which made the weight of the 28 inches of snow too much for the flat roof of the 5-year old Knickerbocker Theater to bear. Both the theater's owner and architect eventually committed suicide; see http://en.wikipedia....kerbocker_Storm

[ThreeRedheads]

Photo from CWG article in 2008:

[Chris L]

This is probably better than any blizzard DC-BWI had, even better than Feb 5-6, 2010.

[Ian]

This is probably better than any blizzard DC-BWI had, even better than Feb 5-6, 2010.

I think it's pretty close to Feb 5-6

[Chris L]

I think it's pretty close to Feb 5-6

It is in terms of snow amounts and liquid precip (QPF).

But they probably did not measure like we do now, of course, so it's probably still king. (no 6 hour method or anything in 1922).

[PrinceFrederickWx]

I remember that storm... the computer models were all over the place until the very end. It first showed up on the 12z Euro on 1/23/22 but no one believed it.

[gymengineer]

Rock Creek Park reported 33".

At the official reporting station, between 2:00 pm and midnight on the 28th, 0.69" liquid equivalent only yielded a 3" increase in snow depth (from 25" to 28"), so there was definitely settling going on. Yes, using the 6-hour method of measurement would have yielded a higher snowfall total, so I do think that the Knickerbocker storm was a notch above 2/5-6/10 for the city proper.

At the same time, no one has confidence that observers at DCA are always measuring according to protocol anyway-- like the discrepency during the 12/18-19/09 snowstorm, etc.

[Ian]

It is in terms of snow amounts and liquid precip (QPF).

But they probably did not measure like we do now, of course, so it's probably still king. (no 6 hour method or anything in 1922).

Photo comparisons of depth are pretty similar.

But to be clear I'm talking the overall storm not DC compared to DC. More bullseye compared to bullseye. IMO these are about top level we can reach... Not sure I believe the Washington-Jefferson verbatim.

[gymengineer]

Photo comparisons of depth are pretty similar.

But to be clear I'm talking the overall storm not DC compared to DC. More bullseye compared to bullseye. IMO these are about top level we can reach... Not sure I believe the Washington-Jefferson verbatim.

Yup-- and the Knickerbocker storm pretty much bullseyed over the DC metro (30"+ reports in NoVa, DC, and into Howard/AA counties), whereas 2/5-6/10 bullseyed a bit further north in Howard County.

[brad1551]

Three Redheads,

I love the picture posted of the knickerbocker blizzard. Funny when you see of "1foot " of snow inside there automobiles. Wet seats for some time and probably mold for life. Lol

[mitchnick]

Photo comparisons of depth are pretty similar.

But to be clear I'm talking the overall storm not DC compared to DC. More bullseye compared to bullseye. IMO these are about top level we can reach... Not sure I believe the Washington-Jefferson verbatim.

2/6/10 will eventually have the lore of the Knickerboker storm

plus, although this might sound a little crazy, I think once a storm gets a name it's given more reverence

if the Knickerboker theater ceiling never collapsed, it would still be a big storm but I think it would not be quite "the" unbeatable storm jmho

[Chris L]

Rock Creek Park reported 33".

At the official reporting station, between 2:00 pm and midnight on the 28th, 0.69" liquid equivalent only yielded a 3" increase in snow depth (from 25" to 28"), so there was definitely settling going on. Yes, using the 6-hour method of measurement would have yielded a higher snowfall total, so I do think that the Knickerbocker storm was a notch above 2/5-6/10 for the city proper.

At the same time, no one has confidence that observers at DCA are always measuring according to protocol anyway-- like the discrepency during the 12/18-19/09 snowstorm, etc.

Who knows what the "actual" total was, but I believe it is absolutely possible for DC-BWI to get 36" of snow in a single storm, given the right setup aloft and dynamics and banding etc.

[ThreeRedheads]

Three Redheads,

I love the picture posted of the knickerbocker blizzard. Funny when you see of "1foot " of snow inside there automobiles. Wet seats for some time and probably mold for life. Lol

Can you imagine getting rid of all that snow without modern snow plows? Found this online:

[RIC Airport]

19.2" from this storm in Richmond

[Huffwx]

20.2 in LYH-- biggest of the "modern" era until Jan 1996.

[PrinceFrederickWx]

I wish Kocin/Uccelini would make a NESIS map of this storm as well as some of the other older, historic blizzards (1888, 1899, 1942, etc.) It would be interesting to see how they measure up compared to, say, 1993 or 1996.

[Ian]

I wish Kocin/Uccelini would make a NESIS map of this storm as well as some of the other older, historic blizzards (1888, 1899, 1942, etc.) It would be interesting to see how they measure up compared to, say, 1993 or 1996.

here's a map of the area tho not sure how accurate it is

The snowfall map of the Washington, D.C. area after the Knickerbocker Snowstorm.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2008/01/the_great_knickerbocker_snowst_1.html

[MDstorm]

here's a map of the area tho not sure how accurate it is

The snowfall map of the Washington, D.C. area after the Knickerbocker Snowstorm.

http://voices.washin...r_snowst_1.html

I believe DT's final call was similar to this map.

MDstorm

[Fozz]

I wish Kocin/Uccelini would make a NESIS map of this storm as well as some of the other older, historic blizzards (1888, 1899, 1942, etc.) It would be interesting to see how they measure up compared to, say, 1993 or 1996.

They did, in Kocin's book.

[Fozz]

here's a map of the area tho not sure how accurate it is

The snowfall map of the Washington, D.C. area after the Knickerbocker Snowstorm.

http://voices.washin...r_snowst_1.html

It's probably not completely accurate........the map in volume II of the KU book looks a bit different, with the 20"+ totals a bit more widespread.

[Huffwx]

It's probably not completely accurate........the map in volume II of the KU book looks a bit different, with the 20"+ totals a bit more widespread.

When LYH has 20.1 and RIC has 19.1 -- that map looks off.

[PrinceFrederickWx]

They did, in Kocin's book.

Oh cool, didn't know that. I never read their book. They need to post the maps online.

Ha! I found this from CWG themselves, they made ones for 1899 and 1922:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2010/12/washingtons_top_10_snowstorms.html

Their 2/5-6/2010 map looks more accurate than the actual one K/U did.

[Ian]

Oh cool, didn't know that. I never read their book. They need to post the maps online.

Ha! I found this from CWG themselves, they made ones for 1899 and 1922:

http://voices.washin...snowstorms.html

Their 2/5-6/2010 map looks more accurate than the actual one K/U did.

it's basically a copy of the nesis map with consideration given to the lwx reports that gives more red than nesis

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/images/snow/nesis/20100204-20100207-4.38.jpg

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/lwx/events/?event=20100206

[RIC Airport]

Wish we could get one of those storms again nowadays. Actually, we have, but seems like we are in a regime where the same set up warrants a different outcome for the southern areas around Richmond. Feb 2010, Dec 2009, Feb 2003 and to a lesser extent Jan 1996 all had precip type issues around the RIC area, cutting the snowfall totals.

Meanwhile, Feb 1983, Feb 1979, Jan 1966, Feb 1936, Jan 1922 were good storms.

[Ian]

here's the kocin map -- taken at ISO 2500 by light of the monitor.

[Ian]

bottom line: our best snowstorms totally f sne

[codfishsnowman]

bottom line: our best snowstorms totally f sne

outside of the crest facing slopes in the berks or the area just west of boston down to worcestor and northern ri...you are 100 pct correct and i have been saying that for years

maybe you guys suffer through some horrible winters but when you get a big snowstorm, YOU GET A BIG SNOWSTORM LOL

[WEATHER53]

I think what puts 2/6/10 into the #1 spot is the widespreaad 25-35" over the DC area. The measurement at DCA, as ususal, is indefensible.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I think what puts 2/6/10 into the #1 spot is the widespreaad 25-35" over the DC area. The measurement at DCA, as ususal, is indefensible.

 

Yeah, maybe a close call here in terms of Feb. 5-6, 2010 and the Knickerbocker storm.

 

Concerning DCA measurements, I perhaps wouldn't go as far as saying they're "indefensible" as in being purposefully mis-reported or due to incompetence.  I think there were a few other reports near the river (near Alexandria?) that were sub-20 inches from the Feb. 5-6, 2010 storm.  Admittedly, I rolled my eyes as soon as I saw their 17.6" (or whatever it was) report for that; it may have even been the lowest amount in the metro area, not sure.  As for DCA being representative of the immediate metro DC area as a whole, including the District itself...I've always felt it's not very useful for that.  With few exceptions it's always the lowest or on the low end of all reports.  Yet it's used as the standard for what DC got for a particular event.  Heck, American Univ. in northwest DC reported 27" from Feb. 5-6, 2010.  I'm sure most of DC itself got on the order of 20" to a couple of feet.  But I suppose in terms of an "official" report, there's really nothing closer to use than where DCA is, for better or worse.  When I lived in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, the amounts I received were regularly more than DCA, sometimes notably so.  I think there was a similar "outcry" concerning DCA's total after the Jan. 1996 blizzard (I wasn't here for that one)?

[Ian]

Yeah, maybe a close call here in terms of Feb. 5-6, 2010 and the Knickerbocker storm.

 

Concerning DCA measurements, I perhaps wouldn't go as far as saying they're "indefensible" as in being purposefully mis-reported or due to incompetence.  I think there were a few other reports near the river (near Alexandria?) that were sub-20 inches from the Feb. 5-6, 2010 storm.  Admittedly, I rolled my eyes as soon as I saw their 17.6" (or whatever it was) report for that; it may have even been the lowest amount in the metro area, not sure.  As for DCA being representative of the immediate metro DC area as a whole, including the District itself...I've always felt it's not very useful for that.  With few exceptions it's always the lowest or on the low end of all reports.  Yet it's used as the standard for what DC got for a particular event.  Heck, American Univ. in northwest DC reported 27" from Feb. 5-6, 2010.  I'm sure most of DC itself got on the order of 20" to a couple of feet.  But I suppose in terms of an "official" report, there's really nothing closer to use than where DCA is, for better or worse.  When I lived in the Capitol Hill neighborhood, the amounts I received were regularly more than DCA, sometimes notably so.  I think there was a similar "outcry" concerning DCA's total after the Jan. 1996 blizzard (I wasn't here for that one)?

 

No doubt they are as accurate as they can be given their situation IMO. There is nothing to prove otherwise. But, yeah.. everyone who pays attention knows DCA sucks at snow accumulation and is not what you'd expect in a large part of the city -- though I'd bet it's more representative even there than some think. Anyone saying the old location is for sure colder/snowier has probably not spent time within the main city boundaries during a snowstorm. On a lot of the other DCA complaints I think it's at least partly people not understanding that no location is fully representative of anything other than that location. I believe most temps (at least deep into seasons) etc are fairly representative of a decent part of downtown, or at least can be used as a baseline to make an educated guess based on local variations in topography etc.  On the flip side, it's hard to say an official station near American would be totally representative either. I moved about 1.5 miles halfway through 09-10, so I didn't get measurements at just one location.. I believe my final was about 70" though (have to see if I saved the stats anywhere).  Got 22" (I think on Feb 5-6)... not far from American.. I wonder if their numbers are a little inflated personally, but it is just about the highest part of the city so maybe not.