Winter '11/'12 Complaint Thread

[michsnowfreak]

This is one of the most difficult storms to pin down a final total. I have a rough 3" depth but im sure i picked up around 4". So not sure how to register this as.

You really would have to stay on top of the 6 hour measurment rules or catch the snow before melting commenced, ESPECIALLY for the bottom 2 tiers of counties (but for you as well). Anyone who goes by the depth after a day like this would be very lowballed, though Im sure some of the local coop observers on DTX's RTP who always lowball will do so. For me...I had 1.3" on the snowboard at 12:20, then another 0.9" at 7am, so storm total was 2.2" though my depth at the time was 1.9". My depth now is 0 lol (again the warm ground was a factor for all but the L tracking over me had to do with my total loss of snowcover).

[dmc76]

It's not just a feeling, it's a statistical fact.

EVERY city from the Plains to the East Coast has had an epic snowstorm in recent history except Detroit (and St. Louis), even Toronto and Minneapolis.

For me, an overachieving 1-3" snowstorm does nothing, especially when the snowfall rates and snowflake size are largely crappy. Yeah, a storm like February 20th is an exception to this rule, but the fact that it followed the hills of the GHD Blizzard and, to take it a step further, I missed out on all of the thundersnow to the north and south, it certainly wasn't the greatest overachieving snowstorm for me either.

That said, my prediction of several 1-3" snows totaling up to a 35" winter (and my prediction that Toronto will remain winter storm free) is working out quite well.

I think people here are bored of the several 1-4" events Occasional over achieving and that random 6-10" event and some how places like Ann Arbor and Lake Orion seem to squeeze out a crazy amount. Although the Blizzard of 1999 did bring 15" to MTC. Most places recieved 8-13"

Actually I think St.Louis had an epic event in 1982. Im not not sure but I was doing research on this couple months ago. They had a 14-22" event around the Metro area 15.5" city its self. I believe you have to throw Indy in that mix instead of STL. Indys biggest storm ever was 15.5" (1978). So I believe Detroit is the only one since 1978 to not have a 15"+ event. Birmingham, Al had 20"+ event with in the last 20 years. Just outside of K.C even had 12-16" last year GHD. Cincinnati, OH (1998) 18.8". Toronto 16" (1999) So its clear Detroit is well overdue for a Monster

[michsnowfreak]

Lived it. That was quit the best/worse combo. 81-82 was my #1 snowiest winter in SEMI with well over 100" in the northern burbs (I wish I would have kept records for that winter). 82-83 was my #1 worst winter I have ever experienced. It was brutal having them fall like that!!

By the numbers.....

DTW..........snowfall.....1"+ snowcover days

1981-82.......74.0"..........89 days

1982-83.......20.0"..........15 days

And in 1982-83, 11.0" of the 20.0" and 8 of the 15 snowcover days came after the spring equinox!

The all-time combo though:

Detroit

1880-81: 93.6" (snowiest winter on record)

1881-82: 13.2" (2nd least snowiest and warmest winter on record).

For comparison to the above

DTW..........snowfall.....1"+ snowcover days

2010-11.........69.1"...........80 days

2011-12.........25.2"...........20 days (thru Feb 24)

When you look at it, ESPECIALLY coming after 3 out of 4 past winters in the all-time top 10, we were due for a sucky year, and boy did we get it!

[dmc76]

You really would have to stay on top of the 6 hour measurment rules or catch the snow before melting commenced, ESPECIALLY for the bottom 2 tiers of counties (but for you as well). Anyone who goes by the depth after a day like this would be very lowballed, though Im sure some of the local coop observers on DTX's RTP who always lowball will do so. For me...I had 1.3" on the snowboard at 12:20, then another 0.9" at 7am, so storm total was 2.2" though my depth at the time was 1.9". My depth now is 0 lol (again the warm ground was a factor for all but the L tracking over me had to do with my total loss of snowcover).

It was a tough storm for me to go in and out house fighting a stupid flu/cold. So I just went with 3.5" could have gone 4". Weatherphysco is a little west of me hes recording 4" NW Oakland usually a little better in this setup.

[michsnowfreak]

I think people here are bored of the several 1-4" events Occasional over achieving and that random 6-10" event and some how places like Ann Arbor and Lake Orion seem to squeeze out a crazy amount. Although the Blizzard of 1999 did bring 15" to MTC. Most places recieved 8-13"

Actually I think St.Louis had an epic event in 1982. Im not not sure but I was doing research on this couple months ago. They had a 14-22" event around the Metro area 15.5" city its self. I believe you have to throw Indy in that mix instead of STL. Indys biggest storm ever was 15.5" (1978). So I believe Detroit is the only one since 1978 to not have a 15"+ event. Birmingham, Al had 20"+ event with in the last 20 years. Just outside of K.C even had 12-16" last year GHD. Cincinnati, OH (1998) 18.8". Toronto 16" (1999) So its clear Detroit is well overdue for a Monster

Its no question that Detroit is overdue for a monster. We circle this one all the time, its statistical fact. The last 12"+ storm at DTW was 12.2" on Jan 22, 2005 but that last real big one was 19.3" Dec 1/2, 1974. But I will say Im not a fan of saying "just outside this region" or "this city's burbs had.." when describing a big event. Detroits burbs have had some 15" events this past decade too..we should leave it to the official numbers for consistency.

When you like snow like i do, repetitious 1-4" events are not boring when most other places arent getting them in this winter-that-wasnt, but in the grand scheme they certainly are. To clarify when I mentioned how most events have overperformed lately, I was talking the advisory/warning ones, not the run-of-the mill nickel and dime snows. They too have overperformed this winter, but getting 3" when you expect 2" and it still melts 2 days later is not something you remember a few days later...getting 10" when you expect 2" (2-20-11) or getting 5" when you expect 0 (2-5-11), THAT is.

[michsnowfreak]

It was a tough storm for me to go in and out house fighting a stupid flu/cold. So I just went with 3.5" could have gone 4". Weatherphysco is a little west of me hes recording 4" NW Oakland usually a little better in this setup.

In a case like this, Id say go for the higher number. Sorry to hear that, cant escape the sickness lately. I just had a bad cold for 8 days. It actually started Feb 12 (after I was in the snow all day the day before, go figure) and it was 8-9 days before it cleared up.

[dmc76]

Its no question that Detroit is overdue for a monster. We circle this one all the time, its statistical fact. The last 12"+ storm at DTW was 12.2" on Jan 22, 2005 but that last real big one was 19.3" Dec 1/2, 1974. But I will say Im not a fan of saying "just outside this region" or "this city's burbs had.." when describing a big event. Detroits burbs have had some 15" events this past decade too..we should leave it to the official numbers for consistency.

When you like snow like i do, repetitious 1-4" events are not boring when most other places arent getting them in this winter-that-wasnt, but in the grand scheme they certainly are. To clarify when I mentioned how most events have overperformed lately, I was talking the advisory/warning ones, not the run-of-the mill nickel and dime snows. They too have overperformed this winter, but getting 3" when you expect 2" and it still melts 2 days later is not something you remember a few days later...getting 10" when you expect 2" (2-20-11) or getting 5" when you expect 0 (2-5-11), THAT is.

Me Personally love the several 1-4" events especially in colder winters. Build a deep snow depth. Im not going to lie I want to see an event of 15-20" around the Metro Detroit. never seen it. Yes Ive seen it in Northern Oakland a few times but never seen it in Metro Detroit.

[michsnowfreak]

Me Personally love the several 1-4" events especially in colder winters. Build a deep snow depth. Im not going to lie I want to see an event of 15-20" around the Metro Detroit. never seen it. Yes Ive seen it in Northern Oakland a few times but never seen it in Metro Detroit.

Agree 100%. You give me the snow weve had this winter with some sustained cold and I would be totally fine with it. No, its not the way I would have ordered it...but as said we have been long overdue for a stinky snowfall season, and if it could have been accompanied by cold and kept some snowcover, Id be fine. But this constant melting after 2-4 days after it falls makes it feel like Maryland not Michigan!

[weatherpsycho]

By the numbers.....

DTW..........snowfall.....1"+ snowcover days

1981-82.......74.0"..........89 days

1982-83.......20.0"..........15 days

And in 1982-83, 11.0" of the 20.0" and 8 of the 15 snowcover days came after the spring equinox!

The all-time combo though:

Detroit

1880-81: 93.6" (snowiest winter on record)

1881-82: 13.2" (2nd least snowiest and warmest winter on record).

For comparison to the above

DTW..........snowfall.....1"+ snowcover days

2010-11.........69.1"...........80 days

2011-12.........25.2"...........20 days (thru Feb 24)

When you look at it, ESPECIALLY coming after 3 out of 4 past winters in the all-time top 10, we were due for a sucky year, and boy did we get it!

I know you are a huge stat guy and those are pretty cool stats

I don't live near DTW so those numbers are many times irrelevant for me especially 1981-82 was much more intense in the northern burbs. Now 1982-83 the amount were similar as the entire metro region we snow deprived during winter months. During spring (March/April) 1983 the northern burbs did get more snow then DTW did. The March 21, 1983 storm approached a foot IMBY as I still remember that storm. I was excited and pissed at the same time. Always excited about a significant storm but pissed because as you stats show most of the 1982-83 snow came after winter in spring. This was basically a slap in the face as everyone really thought we would easily get the record low snowfall (it was being talked about) with only 9" all winter season before that March 21st storm ended it all.

The all-time combo is a neat stat but I wasn't around so to me it is meaningless if you catch my drift!

Yeah this winter has been 'bad' (I won't deny that) but we have had much more snow this 2011-12 winter than 1982-83 did. I can tell you 1982-83 was MUCH worse up to this point MUCH!!! And we still have March and April 2012 to go.

[weatherpsycho]

It's not just a feeling, it's a statistical fact.

EVERY city from the Plains to the East Coast has had an epic snowstorm in recent history except Detroit (and St. Louis), even Toronto and Minneapolis.

For me, an overachieving 1-3" snowstorm does nothing, especially when the snowfall rates and snowflake size are largely crappy. Yeah, a storm like February 20th is an exception to this rule, but the fact that it followed the hills of the GHD Blizzard and, to take it a step further, I missed out on all of the thundersnow to the north and south, it certainly wasn't the greatest overachieving snowstorm for me either.

That said, my prediction of several 1-3" snows totaling up to a 35" winter (and my prediction that Toronto will remain winter storm free) is working out quite well.

Detroit (DTW & City airports) yes it is a statistical fact and I will agree.

[weatherpsycho]

Its no question that Detroit is overdue for a monster. We circle this one all the time, its statistical fact. The last 12"+ storm at DTW was 12.2" on Jan 22, 2005 but that last real big one was 19.3" Dec 1/2, 1974. But I will say Im not a fan of saying "just outside this region" or "this city's burbs had.." when describing a big event. Detroits burbs have had some 15" events this past decade too..we should leave it to the official numbers for consistency.

When you like snow like i do, repetitious 1-4" events are not boring when most other places arent getting them in this winter-that-wasnt, but in the grand scheme they certainly are. To clarify when I mentioned how most events have overperformed lately, I was talking the advisory/warning ones, not the run-of-the mill nickel and dime snows. They too have overperformed this winter, but getting 3" when you expect 2" and it still melts 2 days later is not something you remember a few days later...getting 10" when you expect 2" (2-20-11) or getting 5" when you expect 0 (2-5-11), THAT is.

I totally agree as Detroit's northern and western burbs have seen several 12-18" events in the past decade. I listed several a few posts ago in which I got 15-18".

You know we been speaking of 1982-83 and during that winter if I recall correctly I am pretty sure MBY got two 18"+ storms. We had so much snow on the ground that we could jump of the roof into the snow as the pile were up to the roof.

I am a winter sports guy and like you I prefer to have snow on the ground as much as possible. Winters like this one is when I struggle the most. Last winter I might have missed out on the EPIC stuff IMBY it was a great year because snow cover was AWESOME and we did get two 10"+ storms (with TSSN) and some other significant events. This year snow cover have been torturous!

[michsnowfreak]

I know you are a huge stat guy and those are pretty cool stats

I don't live near DTW so those numbers are many times irrelevant for me especially 1981-82 was much more intense in the northern burbs. Now 1982-83 the amount were similar as the entire metro region we snow deprived during winter months. During spring (March/April) 1983 the northern burbs did get more snow then DTW did. The March 21, 1983 storm approached a foot IMBY as I still remember that storm. I was excited and pissed at the same time. Always excited about a significant storm but pissed because as you stats show most of the 1982-83 snow came after winter in spring. This was basically a slap in the face as everyone really thought we would easily get the record low snowfall (it was being talked about) with only 9" all winter season before that March 21st storm ended it all.

The all-time combo is a neat stat but I wasn't around so to me it is meaningless if you catch my drift!

Yeah this winter has been 'bad' (I won't deny that) but we have had much more snow this 2011-12 winter than 1982-83 did. I can tell you 1982-83 was MUCH worse up to this point MUCH!!! And we still have March and April 2012 to go.

there have been many years worse than this one, but yeah its been bad. Im glad you have some recollection of the early 80s..I always wondered if that '82-83 winter was big local news at the time going for the all-time low. Remember by chance if the Mar 21 storm was forecast?

[DAFF]

I'm changing my thinking. I want lots of rain and a early spring !!!

[SpartyOn]

Winter sucks. It's cool until about mid/late Jan. I just get real sick and tired of the constant jacket wearing and lack of sunlight. It never fails that around March I shake my head and question why I'm living in a state with the highest unemployment , highest obesity rates and is the 2nd most cloudy state. Sigh! Everything bad you guys have heard about Michigan is true.

[on_wx]

Winter sucks. It's cool until about mid/late Jan. I just get real sick and tired of the constant jacket wearing and lack of sunlight. It never fails that around March I shake my head and question why I'm living in a state with the highest unemployment , highest obesity rates and is the 2nd most cloudy state. Sigh! Everything bad you guys have heard about Michigan is true.

Move. Go do bigger and better things.

[BeastFromTheEast]

Winter sucks. It's cool until about mid/late Jan. I just get real sick and tired of the constant jacket wearing and lack of sunlight. It never fails that around March I shake my head and question why I'm living in a state with the highest unemployment , highest obesity rates and is the 2nd most cloudy state. Sigh! Everything bad you guys have heard about Michigan is true.

California, Arizona, Florida welcome you with open arms..

DO IT! You know you want to..

[Stebo]

Winter sucks. It's cool until about mid/late Jan. I just get real sick and tired of the constant jacket wearing and lack of sunlight. It never fails that around March I shake my head and question why I'm living in a state with the highest unemployment , highest obesity rates and is the 2nd most cloudy state. Sigh! Everything bad you guys have heard about Michigan is true.

Please leave the state then, because your insults and bashing of Michigan is truly a reflection of your lack of manners. Some of us here love living in Michigan for several reasons.

[michsnowfreak]

Please leave the state then, because your insults and bashing of Michigan is truly a reflection of your lack of manners. Some of us here love living in Michigan for several reasons.

I agree Michigan is a wonderful state. But that post was more ignorance than a lack of manners. I dont know what state Sparty lives in, but from what he describes, its clearly not Michigan. Michigans unemployment rate is 11th highest in the US, not the highest. Also, Michigan is the 10th most obese state, not the most obese. And there is no such thing as ranking the cloudiest states, but they do rank the cloudiest US cities in winter, and Detroit is 8th (behind, Portland, Seattle, Buffalo, Cleveland, Rochester, Pittsburgh, and Columbus). So that post was lies, lies, lies.

[michsnowfreak]

California, Arizona, Florida welcome you with open arms..

DO IT! You know you want to..

Yup..lots of sunshine there. And California (2nd) and Florida (6th) also have higher unemployment than MI (11th) too

[SpartyOn]

Time to take off the Michigan blinders and wake up to the fact that our starte blows. This is going straight into off topic.

Freak. Mi was 2nd not long ago in unployment...11 th is nothing to be proud of. People are suffering and blimping out!

FWIW. This state is top shelf in natural beauty. But so is West Virginia. Social Economic stability wins out over the best hiking trails.

[dmc76]

Time to take off the Michigan blinders and wake up to the fact that our starte blows. This is going straight into off topic.

Freak. Mi was 2nd not long ago in unployment...11 th is nothing to be proud of. People are suffering and blimping out!

Dude you O.K? Michigan DOES not blow! I think it's one of the cooler states in the Country. I agree on places like Flint, Saginaw, Benton Harbor and Detroit are basically slums but that should not reflect on the state as a whole.

[SpartyOn]

Dude you O.K? Michigan DOES not blow! I think it's one of the cooler states in the Country. I agree on places like Flint, Saginaw, Benton Harbor and Detroit are basically slums but that should not reflect on the state as a whole.

I'm fine just complaining about stuff I shouldn't do in this thread. Maybe Im bitter about issues that are non concerning to weather. Mods feel free to delete.

[SpartyOn]

I agree Michigan is a wonderful state. But that post was more ignorance than a lack of manners. I dont know what state Sparty lives in, but from what he describes, its clearly not Michigan. Michigans unemployment rate is 11th highest in the US, not the highest. Also, Michigan is the 10th most obese state, not the most obese. And there is no such thing as ranking the cloudiest states, but they do rank the cloudiest US cities in winter, and Detroit is 8th (behind, Portland, Seattle, Buffalo, Cleveland, Rochester, Pittsburgh, and Columbus). So that post was lies, lies, lies.

So proud about being 10th and 8th and 11th. Those are still in the D- range.

[Stebo]

Time to take off the Michigan blinders and wake up to the fact that our starte blows. This is going straight into off topic.

Freak. Mi was 2nd not long ago in unployment...11 th is nothing to be proud of. People are suffering and blimping out!

FWIW. This state is top shelf in natural beauty. But so is West Virginia. Social Economic stability wins out over the best hiking trails.

You aren't going to win over people here by bashing an entire state. If you don't like it here by all means leave and take your terrible posting with you. I am sure others would love to see you fumble your way through a day of posting.

[Powerball]

Freak. Mi was 2nd not long ago in unployment...11 th is nothing to be proud of. People are suffering and blimping out!

To each his own obviously. Every state has its own type of beauty about it IMO. Each state also has its own type of appeal to different people.

BTW, while the unemployment rate itself has fallen (which just means those people are no longer counted as unemployed, no necessarily that they found work), the labor force participation rate is still at the same lows they were at when the Great Recession began in Michigan. But it does go to show how the MSM and the government can create the illusion to make the masses THINK things are getting better when they're really not (same with the National Unemployment rate).

And my proof (please, have at it and provide your own to refute it)...

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/24/news/economy/jobs_michigan/index.htm

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16493

Hohman estimates that if Michigan had maintained the same number of people in the workforce as December 2007, and if all of the labor force drop-outs were instead classified as unemployed, Michigan’s unemployment rate would be at 16 percent.

But back on topic, it looks like Northern Minnesota, the UP of Michigan and North Dakota are in for some snowier times. Of course, like always, we're just going to get light stratiform rain with temps in the 40s.

[SpartyOn]

You aren't going to win over people here by bashing an entire state. If you don't like it here by all means leave and take your terrible posting with you. I am sure others would love to see you fumble your way through a day of posting.

I apologize if I offended u and the others. I'm wrong for posting this crap. Sorry.

[dmc76]

But it does go to show how the MSM and the government can create the illusion to make the masses THINK things are getting better when they're really not (same with the National Unemployment rate).

Bud Abbott and Lou Costello were one of the most popular comedy teams of the 1940's and 1950's.

COSTELLO: I want to talk about the unemployment rate in America .

ABBOTT: Good subject. Terrible times. It's about 9%.

COSTELLO: That many people are out of work?

ABBOTT: No, that's 16%.

COSTELLO: You just said 9%.

ABBOTT: 9% Unemployed.

COSTELLO: Right 9% out of work.

ABBOTT: No, that's 16%.

COSTELLO: Okay, so it's 16% unemployed.

ABBOTT: No, that's 9%...

COSTELLO: WAIT A MINUTE. Is it 9% or 16%?

ABBOTT: 9% are unemployed. 16% are out of work.

COSTELLO: If you are out of work you are unemployed.

ABBOTT: No, you can't count the "Out of Work" as the unemployed. You have to look for work to be unemployed.

COSTELLO: But ... they are out of work!

ABBOTT: No, you miss my point.

COSTELLO: What point?

ABBOTT: Someone who doesn't look for work, can't be counted with those who look for work. It wouldn't be fair.

COSTELLO: To who?

ABBOTT: The unemployed.

COSTELLO: But they are ALL out of work.

ABBOTT: No, the unemployed are actively looking for work... Those who are out of work stopped looking. They gave up. And, if you give up, you are no longer in the ranks of the unemployed.

COSTELLO: So if you're off the unemployment rolls, that would count as less unemployment?

ABBOTT: Unemployment would go down. Absolutely!

COSTELLO: The unemployment just goes down because you don't look for work?

ABBOTT: Absolutely it goes down. That's how you get to 9%. Otherwise it would be 16%. You don't want to read about 16% unemployment do ya?

COSTELLO: That would be frightening.

ABBOTT: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Wait, I got a question for you. That means they're two ways to bring down the unemployment number?

ABBOTT: Two ways is correct.

COSTELLO: Unemployment can go down if someone gets a job?

ABBOTT: Correct.

COSTELLO: And unemployment can also go down if you stop looking for a job?

ABBOTT: Bingo.

COSTELLO: So there are two ways to bring unemployment down, and the easier of the two is to just stop looking for work.

ABBOTT: Now you're thinking like an economist.

COSTELLO: I don't even know what the hell I just said!

[SpartyOn]

^ that's awesome.

Its been nothing short of painfull watching close friends and family getting laid off from the once mighty automotive industry. Makes me sick!

The issue of unemployment is a sore subject. I think Mi is running around 9%. (unexceptable) Problem in those numbers is that the number of jobs created since the great recession ended does not match or equal how many were lost. People have left this state in mass exodus and many displaced workers are no longer counted as their weekly benefits have ended.

It's a tuff pill to swallow but I highly doubt this state will ever return to its mighty industrial middle class roots. Most of the state economy is shifting to a service based model. Which pays and lowers the quality of life compared to complex industrial an manufacturing macro/local economies. This state is example of the Post Industrial American Decline. Up hill battle!

This is simply why I say it's time take the rose colored glasses off. These are bad times and the effect of economic hardship is breaking apart the cultural aspect of this ONCE middle class stronghold.

Serious OT. My apologies but worthy of a response

[weatherpsycho]

MI wouldn't blow if the surrounding states and country didn't suck so much

As for the MI bashing yah okay whatever. If you don't like it here then don't let the door hit yah on the way out. I enjoy NW Oakland county and someday I plan to retire in Allegan. I love northern Lower and the UP. I really like it here but that's me.

[Hoosier]

Take the unemployment and obesity talk somewhere else.