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Thursday Wintry Threat II


Baroclinic Zone

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Yeah this system is a bit more multi-faceted than just whether it snows or not; although clearly few care. But there could be an isollobaric wind pulse on the back side of this as rapid deepening rates ensue while the low pulls away.

Also, this run has a stronger vorticity maximum and more negative tilt in the TV valley. This might carry along with it a whopper -EPV saturation/ excessive UVM core. Trop. folding would enter the concern package should that happen. If so, someone gets abrupt wind like a p-wave off a bomb blast ...isollobaric wind trajectories aside.

I recall a discussion with a college prof/mentor back in the day... These mid to late autumns with coastal dynamic frequencies are usually a troubling signs for immediate ensuing winters.

Understood regaring best track anticipation being an ALB, but suggest maintaining vigil for possibel SE tick. I don't believe any farther W is likely given the large scale influences on this impulse movability within the field. There is also a low probability that it gets so intense in the eastern TV while turning negative that it closes off temporarilty and that would actually assist it turning more right as it neareed the MA believe it or not - that would change the landscape of the outcome a bit. Again ...low probability.

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Yeah this system is a bit more multi-faceted than just whether it snows or not; although clearly few care. But there could be an isollobaric wind pulse on the back side of this as rapid deepening rates ensue while the low pulls away.

Also, this run has a stronger vorticity maximum and more negative tilt in the TV valley. This might carry along with it a whopper -EPV saturation/ excessive UVM core. Trop. folding would enter the concern package should that happen. If so, someone gets abrupt wind like a p-wave off a bomb blast ...isollobaric wind trajectories aside.

I recall a discussion with a college prof/mentor back in the day... These mid to late autumns with coastal dynamic frequencies are usually a good sign for immediate ensuing winters.

I think there is some signals of a fold as well...although I want to caution people we are not saying 12/9/05 type stuff.

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I think there is some signals of a fold as well...although I want to caution people we are not saying 12/9/05 type stuff.

that day sits on its own. period.

hate that analogy...not because you can't compare the two from a meteorological perspective but because the sensible weather impact of 12/9/05 is off-the-charts type stuff. that was a once-in-a-lifetime type of event.

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I hate it when a met has the same thought as me and it's not one of optimism. For MBY, I suppose being further north might help me a smidge with the cold air given the orientation of the temp gradiant. But, nothing of any significance. We could really use a 30 mile shift to really lighten up the mood in GC.

It could still happen. Sometimes the models trend too far NW in this timeframe only to tick SE slightly at the end. If 00Z suite comes in looking like the previous runs, then I'm not optimistic. However, given the dynamic nature of this system, I'm not sure this will happen.

Our other hope is if the dynamics from this storm can actually find a way to help us. Strong UVVs in this storm could result in enough dynamical cooling to chill the column to +SN a bit sooner than guidance would indicate. This happened in parts of CT and the NY metro during the 10/29 event.

This is a very longitude dependent deal. Latitude won't help as much as longitude as during a SWFE. It may snow in DC before it does here. I will probably change over a bit earlier than Pete does 20 miles directly to my E as the cold air will probably drain onto the west slope a bit quicker than it does on the east slope. The 850 zero line getting stuck near ALB is not good...

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I hate it when a met has the same thought as me and it's not one of optimism. For MBY, I suppose being further north might help me a smidge with the cold air given the orientation of the temp gradiant. But, nothing of any significance. We could really use a 30 mile shift to really lighten up the mood in GC.

Don't break form, worry about QPF, maybe the dryslot will get us.lol

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I think there is some signals of a fold as well...although I want to caution people we are not saying 12/9/05 type stuff.

Look for concentric banding of intense DBZ/relative lightness in couplets amid the comma head - if that does get underway. That type of violent upward motioin usually instigates a compensating, non-propagating gravity wave phenomenon.

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It could still happen. Sometimes the models trend too far NW in this timeframe only to tick SE slightly at the end. If 00Z suite comes in looking like the previous runs, then I'm not optimistic. However, given the dynamic nature of this system, I'm not sure this will happen.

Our other hope is if the dynamics from this storm can actually find a way to help us. Strong UVVs in this storm could result in enough dynamical cooling to chill the column to +SN a bit sooner than guidance would indicate. This happened in parts of CT and the NY metro during the 10/29 event.

This is a very longitude dependent deal. Latitude won't help as much as longitude as during a SWFE. It may snow in DC before it does here. I will probably change over a bit earlier than Pete does 20 miles directly to my E as the cold air will probably drain onto the west slope a bit quicker than it does on the east slope. The 850 zero line getting stuck near ALB is not good...

I hate those slow moving lines! My orientation comment was tied to the look of the 850 line which SW-NE. Again, in the scheme of things, means little. Pete and I are nearly N/S of each other (he may be .1* west), so I expect the same type of window from your observaton to the changeover here.

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that day sits on its own. period.

hate that analogy...not because you can't compare the two from a meteorological perspective but because the sensible weather impact of 12/9/05 is off-the-charts type stuff. that was a once-in-a-lifetime type of event.

Ehhhh, ...not so sure about that. I've seen similar events in my life, few of them - freak combinations of intensities.

You know... there is a phenomenon in wave physics called rogue wave theory. Basically as you know, a few waves positively interfere such that one mammoth result. Sometimes these storm system can be like metaphors for the same thing. They just just get a steroid shot and go ballistic.

In 1978 I saw 90mph wind gusts and 33" of snow across 3 days. In 1992, I witnessed 1 10 second changeover from rain to white out conditions that heralded in 15" of snow. In 1997 I saw 17" of snow fall, 12 of which fell in about 2.5 hours.

I hear you on the wind back in '05, but it isn't as hard to get a folder as one may think. It'll be ineresting to see what this one can do.

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Albany weighs in:

SOME QPF MAY FALL AS RAIN OR A MIX...WITH PERHAPS A 1-2 HOUR

PERIOD OF MORE INTENSE SNOWFALL RATES OF 1-3 IN/HR ACROSS HIGHER

ELEVATIONS MAINLY S AND E OF THE CAPITAL DISTRICT. THIS SHOULD

YIELD SNOWFALL TOTALS WITHIN THE ADVISORY RANGE ACROSS THE EASTERN

CATSKILLS...BERKSHIRES AND SOUTHERN GREEN MOUNTAINS...AND POSSIBLY

PORTIONS OF THE LITCHFIELD HILLS AND CENTRAL/SOUTHERN TACONICS.

CLOSER TO THE CAPITAL REGION...IT APPEARS 2-4 INCHES OF SNOWFALL

SEEMS LIKELY...WITH A SHARP GRADIENT TO THE N/W...WITH GENERALLY

1-3 INCHES ACROSS SARATOGA COUNTY...AND PERHAPS AROUND AN INCH

CLOSER TO LAKE GEORGE...WITH LITTLE IF ANY SNOW ACROSS THE

SOUTHERN ADIRONDACKS...AND WEST/CENTRAL MOHAWK RIVER VALLEY.

IT SHOULD BE NOTED...HOWEVER...THAT SNOWFALL AMOUNTS STILL MAY BE

ADJUSTED...AND CAN NOT COMPLETELY RULE OUT HIGHER AMOUNTS...ESP ON

THE N/W SIDE OF THE PRECIP...WHICH INCLUDES THE IMMEDIATE CAPITAL

REGION EXTENDING INTO THE LAKE GEORGE/SARATOGA REGION.

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It could still happen. Sometimes the models trend too far NW in this timeframe only to tick SE slightly at the end. If 00Z suite comes in looking like the previous runs, then I'm not optimistic. However, given the dynamic nature of this system, I'm not sure this will happen.

Our other hope is if the dynamics from this storm can actually find a way to help us. Strong UVVs in this storm could result in enough dynamical cooling to chill the column to +SN a bit sooner than guidance would indicate. This happened in parts of CT and the NY metro during the 10/29 event.

This is a very longitude dependent deal. Latitude won't help as much as longitude as during a SWFE. It may snow in DC before it does here. I will probably change over a bit earlier than Pete does 20 miles directly to my E as the cold air will probably drain onto the west slope a bit quicker than it does on the east slope. The 850 zero line getting stuck near ALB is not good...

I think it was the 12/21/09 storm that had the NAM crush us for a run late in the game, heavy accumulations were forecast, bust. It went a bit too far NW. Not saying the set-up is the same but that it does in fact happen. Either way, it does look like we're in line for a bit of snow.

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Ehhhh, ...not so sure about that. I've seen similar events in my life, few of them - freak combinations of intensities.

You know... there is a phenomenon in wave physics called rogue wave theory. Basically as you know, a few waves positively interfere such that one mammoth result. Sometimes these storm system can be like metaphors for the same thing. They just just get a steroid shot and go ballistic.

In 1978 I saw 90mph wind gusts and 33" of snow across 3 days. In 1992, I witnessed 1 10 second changeover from rain to white out conditions that heralded in 15" of snow. In 1997 I saw 17" of snow fall, 12 of which fell in about 2.5 hours.

I hear you on the wind back in '05, but it isn't as hard to get a folder as one may think. It'll be ineresting to see what this one can do.

yeah i know it's not impossible to get a fold. i feel like we see hints of them fairly often - couple times a fall/winter maybe we might pay attention to the *possibility*

i just know for me, in my 33 years of life - of which i feel about 27 i have a pretty good memory - that 30 minutes of weather on 12/9/05 was the most impressive thing i have ever seen. hands down. it's like the cosmos aligned perfectly and rewarded me for being a weather nut for my entire life. :lol:

i know there will be other good events in the future - but i never expect to see that un"fold" again. see what i did there?

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Albany weighs in:

SOME QPF MAY FALL AS RAIN OR A MIX...WITH PERHAPS A 1-2 HOUR

PERIOD OF MORE INTENSE SNOWFALL RATES OF 1-3 IN/HR ACROSS HIGHER

ELEVATIONS MAINLY S AND E OF THE CAPITAL DISTRICT. THIS SHOULD

YIELD SNOWFALL TOTALS WITHIN THE ADVISORY RANGE ACROSS THE EASTERN

CATSKILLS...BERKSHIRES AND SOUTHERN GREEN MOUNTAINS.

Box seems to concur.

AMOUNTS...

HIGH CONFIDENCE IN ADVISORY AMOUNTS ESPECIALLY ACROSS WESTERN MASS

AND INTO NEW HAMPSHIRE. WITH HOW QUICK THIS SYSTEM IS MOVING AND HOW

FAST WILL THE COLD AIR USHER IN...BELIEVE THAT THERE WILL BE HIGH

SNOWFALL RATES PROB 1-2 INCHES AN HOUR ACROSS THE BERKSHIRES AND NEW

HAMPSHIRE

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