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SE Mid-Long Range Discussion


CAD_Wedge_NC

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Lol, fantasy snow and cold are great, but what about sensible rains? I've only just started to get some heavier rains, and would sure like to know if the train keeps running, even if it isn't snow down here :) Thanks, T

you'd get some rain ahead of the incoming front before it stalls. And where it stalls will determing how much, but so long as this run is right, you'd do ok with prefrontal rains at the very least. Now if it cuts off quicker, you'd get more (plus have a shot at wrap around change to snow!)
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you'd get some rain ahead of the incoming front before it stalls. And where it stalls will determing how much, but so long as this run is right, you'd do ok with prefrontal rains at the very least. Now if it cuts off quicker, you'd get more (plus have a shot at wrap around change to snow!)

Thanks, Robert! Are we talking a wet pattern for the Doc? The GFS isn't very interested in continuing the every 3/5 day pattern. Thanks, Tony

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I would love for this to work out for you NC and SC folks....Hopefully we can get a big time storm that whallops all of us! Robert's ideas about these cutoffs seem to really be a 6th sense or something....Good Job Robert and Burger on the info today....looking forward to the PBP's...IF this works out to EURO right GFS wrong....Hmmmm that would certainly be intersting...Robert had noted in the past that the GFS was kicking European tail in the recent past...Time for the flip-flop.

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I would love for this to work out for you NC and SC folks....Hopefully we can get a big time storm that whallops all of us! Robert's ideas about these cutoffs seem to really be a 6th sense or something....Good Job Robert and Burger on the info today....looking forward to the PBP's...IF this works out to EURO right GFS wrong....Hmmmm that would certainly be intersting...Robert had noted in the past that the GFS was kicking European tail in the recent past...Time for the flip-flop.

Yes this will be the first major role reversal since last Christmas storm. Who knows yet if the Euro comes back and whips the GFS on this. But to its credit, a run or 2 of the GFS about 4 days ago had this almost exact setup shown. This makes good 6 to 7 runs of ECMWF with a deep eastern trough, so if it occurs, it gets the true win in my book.

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Loving the free euro snowmaps from wunderground. Seems that GSO would get close to 10+ if you take the 174 and 180 and add them up. Hopefully the euro will hold serve and be right on the pac ridge. My old rule is 2 consecutive runs inside 5 days on the euro and you could take it to the bank. Thursday 12z run will begin to get us inside this window. Great to see it's being consistent so far.

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GGEM PType Maps...

Based on the inland surface track, the 12z Canadian would be a disappointment for many south of the VA/NC boarder. I am still skeptical for the SE, GFS ensembles that show amplification in the 6-8 day are north/OTS/NNE Hit. It gives pause that at-least a few do not show something similar to the EC. Either the GFS is inherently flawed with this setup, the Euro inherently gifted, or a middle ground is struck somewhere in-between. Global model verification scores drop off precipitously after day 5, with the Euro/UKM leading the way in terms of H5 for the NH. HPC noted in the morning extended that the Euro has a bias of being too deep with systems after day 5, and I think most of us have noticed this also; how many times have we seen a deep cut-off show up on 7-10 day panels. Granted, this one looks more extreme than anyone I can remember as of late, but the fact is these wild solutions after day 5 usually trend towards a middle road. Below is the H5 anomalies from this run at 192hrs, if you are feeling lucky, go buy a lottery ticket tonight because the chance of 450m neg departures materializing in the SE, that's almost unheard of (4 sigma type stuff).

12zECMWF500mbHeightAnomalyNA192.gif

JMA looks good out at 144. Anyone have it after that?

Slightly more amped GFS, progressive with a frontal passage, kind of surprised, past couple runs have looked similar to the Euro. Within 120 and the Euro/UKMET have a similar look, then you know it may be getting serious. Until then, expect the chaos to continue.

http://www.meteociel...&nh=1&archive=0

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I'll be watching this one fairly closely as I'll be heading to South Carolina on the 3rd. I can tell you with respect to the current negative tilt system moving through the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley, the Euro is the only model that successfully caught on to the pattern 6 days out and was eerily accurate. The GFS, GEM and NAM continued to flip flop and did not catch on to the amplification until about 36 hours ago.

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With seven days to go, I'm keeping my powder dry on this one. Sure, the pattern is ripe for this type of storm. But....it's seven days away. I'm going to follow it closely, but it's way too early to be getting overly stoked. What I take from today's model runs is that an East coast storm is possible and maybe even likely somewhere east of the Mississippi. That said, we have no idea where this baby is going. Like Foothills, a strong westward jog wouldn't surprise me. What does encourage me is that the NAO is projecting downward on the CPC site. As I mentioned yesterday or the day before, it wouldn't surprise me to see a storm accompany that downward trend. Still, it's very, very early. But if I had to put my money on a horse, the Euro would be it. Keep in mind, I don't bet and we may find out why!

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JMA, CMC and Euro are showing similar setup for a storm. The GFS and Euro Op and ENS are showing PNA spike and neutral AO early next week which argues for something. I would feel much better for SE if NAO was close to neutral but it won't be. It looks good for storm of some sort but with the trends the past few weeks argues for a west shift which would leave out a lot of the SE, except for the foothills and mtns.

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I'll be watching this one fairly closely as I'll be heading to South Carolina on the 3rd. I can tell you with respect to the current negative tilt system moving through the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley, the Euro is the only model that successfully caught on to the pattern 6 days out and was eerily accurate. The GFS, GEM and NAM continued to flip flop and did not catch on to the amplification until about 36 hours ago.

Déjà Vu - 2010/2011 winter. It was King Euro for a span.

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I would love for this to work out for you NC and SC folks....Hopefully we can get a big time storm that whallops all of us! Robert's ideas about these cutoffs seem to really be a 6th sense or something....Good Job Robert and Burger on the info today....looking forward to the PBP's...IF this works out to EURO right GFS wrong....Hmmmm that would certainly be intersting...Robert had noted in the past that the GFS was kicking European tail in the recent past...Time for the flip-flop.

Don't expect me to be on it tonight. I've got to catch up from my Holiday Hangover and tons of work to do.

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Merry Christmas guys.

12z ECMWF shows the day 7/8 storm brings 8-12 inches of snow to N/NW/NE piedmonts of NC, 4-8 to NE TN, central/northern mountains/foothills/southern piedmont, sandhills, coastal plain of NC, and upstate SC, and 2-4 across east TN, NW and central SC, narrow band in downeast NC.

The model shows an extreme cut-off scenario that is possible, but seems to certainly be the extreme scenario as of now. Shows major cold outbreak down into Florida following the storm. Will comment when i see ECMWF Ens.

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Merry Christmas guys.

12z ECMWF shows the day 7/8 storm brings 8-12 inches of snow to N/NW/NE piedmonts of NC, 4-8 to NE TN, central/northern mountains/foothills/southern piedmont, sandhills, coastal plain of NC, and upstate SC, and 2-4 across east TN, NW and central SC, narrow band in downeast NC.

The model shows an extreme cut-off scenario that is possible, but seems to certainly be the extreme scenario as of now. Shows major cold outbreak down into Florida following the storm. Will comment when i see ECMWF Ens.

Allan, Good to see you here. Where have you been? I am anxiously awaiting what you see on the ensembles. Thanks for taking the time to pop in and post your thoughts.

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EXTENDED FORECAST DISCUSSION

NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD

230 PM EST TUE DEC 27 2011

VALID 12Z FRI DEC 30 2011 - 12Z TUE JAN 03 2012

A QUIET RATHER MILD PATTERN MOST PLACES THRU THE WEEKEND. BUT

SIGNIFICANT SNOWFALL IS STILL POSSIBLE FROM THE MID-SOUTH INTO THE

CAROLINAS/MID-ATLANTIC/NORTHEASTERN STATES NEXT WEEK. DETAILS

QUITE SKETCHY...

MODEL CONSENSUS SHOWS THAT THE FLOW PATTERN IS EXPECTED TO BUCKLE

THROUGH THIS WEEKEND AS A FULL-LATITUDE TROUGH DIGS FROM ALASKA

SOUTHWARD ALONG 140W. THIS IN TURN LEADS TO SIGNIFICANT RIDGING

ACROSS WESTERN NORTH AMERICA...CAUSING THE HEAVY PRECIP ACROSS THE

PACIFIC NW TO CEASE. A TROF SHOULD DEVELOP SOMEWHERE E OF THE

PLAINS STATES...BUT HOW FAR E?

HOWEVER...THE GEFS FAMILY OF ENSEMBLE SOLUTIONS IS MUCH

FLATTER/DELAYED/FARTHER E AS THEIR TROUGH BEGINS TO DEVELOP SUN

DAY 5. WHEN THE 00Z GEFS MEAN FINALLY DOES DEVELOP THE TROUGH...IT

IS STILL WEAKER WITH IT MON/TUE THAN THE CORRESPONDING ECMWF

FAMILY OF SOLUTIONS. BY SUN...THE 00Z/27 GFS/CANADIAN/GEFS MEAN

PROGRESS THE DEVELOPING TROUGH FARTHER EAST THAN THE 00Z/27

UKMET/ECMWF/12Z ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEAN.

SINCE THERE IS DECENT MODEL CONSENSUS ON FLOW IN THE ERN PACIFIC

BECOMING MORE AMPLIFIED ...A CORRESPONDING SLOW MOVING/AMPLIFIED

TROUGH EAST OF THE PLAINS MAKES SENSE...THOUGH NOT AS

SLOW/AMPLIFIED AS THE DETERMINISTIC 00Z/27 ECMWF. THE ECMWF HAS A

BIAS OF BEING TOO SLOW/STRONG WITH SYSTEMS FARTHER OUT THAN 120

HOURS. LARGE SCALE TELECONNECTIONS ON AN ERN PACIFIC TROUGH AND

NEGATIVE HEIGHT ANOMALIES OVER GREENLAND FAVOR A MUCH WEAKER E

COAST TROF THAN THE ECMWF OR ITS ENSEMBLE MEAN.

THE KEY SEEMS TO BE HOW MUCH AMPLIFICATION OF AN ERN PACIFIC

TROUGH ALONG 140W OCCURS AROUND DAY 5...WITH SUBSEQUENT

AMPLIFICATION DOWNSTREAM OVER NOAM. THE 00Z/12Z DETERMINISTIC

ECMWF SEEMS TO GO TOO FAR IN DEVELOPING A DEEP CLOSED CYCLONE

ACROSS THE MID-SOUTH WHICH MOVES INTO THE CENTRAL APPALACHIANS

NEXT TUE OR WED. HOWEVER...THERE IS STRONG ECENS ENSEMBLE

SPAGHETTI SUPPORT FOR A DEEP...YET LESS DRASTIC...FULL LATITUDE

TROUGH TRANSLATING ACROSS THE ERN CONUS MON-WED. THERE IS

CONSISTENCY IN RECENT DETERMINISTIC ECMWF RUNS WITH THIS GENERAL

AMPLIFYING TREND EARLY NEXT WEEK. THE 00Z/27 ECENS MEAN STILL

SEEMS LIKE A GOOD HEDGE AFTER SUN DAY 5...IN VIEW OF ITS GOOD LONG

TERM GOOD VERIFICATION.

THE 12Z/27 GFS/GEFS MEAN PERSISTED IN A GENERALLY PROGRESSIVE

FLAVOR IN ITS FORECASTS. THE GFS SEEMS TO OVERPLAY ONE IMPULSE

REACHING THE E COAST SAT DAY 5 GIVEN ITS FAST WESTERLY

ENVIRONMENT...WHILE IT SHOWS ONLY MODERATE DEVELOPMENT TO THE NEXT

TROUGH REACHING 85W BY SUN. IT HAS EVEN BACKED OFF IN AMPLITUDE

HERE FROM ITS 06Z/27 RUN. THE 12Z/27 UKMET WAS IN SNYC WITH THE

GFS ON THE MAIN FEATURES ACROSS THE COUNTRY THRU MON DAY 6.

THEN COMETH THE 12Z/27 CANADIAN...HANDLING THE PATTERN ACROSS MOST

OF THE LOWER 48 FROM DAY 4 ONWARD VERY SIMILAR TO THE 00Z/27 ECMWF

WITH SPECTACULAR DIGGING/CLOSING OFF ALOFT NEAR THE LOWER MS VLY

EARLY TUE. THE SCORE IS EVEN WITH THE 12Z CANADIAN/00Z AND 12Z

ECMWF/00Z/27 ECENS MEAN PITTED AGAINST THE 12Z/27 GFS/GEFS

MEAN/UKMET. THE NEW 12Z/27 ECMWF PLAYS UP A DIFFERENT SHORTWAVE

IN THE AMPLIFYING CENTRAL/ERN TROF TUE/WED BUT HAS THE SAME IDEA

AS PREVIOUSLY...FORECASTING THE A DAY 8 STORM FOR THE E COAST

INSTEAD OF DAY 7. WITH THIS MUCH SPREAD AND UNCERTAINTY FINAL

GRAPHICS ARE STAYING UNCHANGED...HEAVILY WEIGHTED ON THE BACK END

TOWARDS THE ECENS MEAN.

FLOOD

0z EC ens mean @ 168

00zECMWFENS500mbHeightAnomalyNA168.gif

:popcorn:

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2 step process to get op Euro storm to work out. 1) get the ridge pumped up out west 2) get a sw to dig into the trough in the east. Seems the 12z euro ensembles agree with the operational on step 1, It's step 2, finding or agreeing on a sw to dig into the trough that's gonna be the wishy washy part over the next several days watching models.

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