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Dec 11-13 MW/Lakes/OV Snow Event? Part III


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66hrs: 988MB SLP just north of Toronto.

72hrs: 984Mb SLP just north of the VT border.

CStorm-izzle

i know you are deadly accurate...

just wanted to clarify...at 72 hours, its defintely north of vermont, and not north of the northern part of new york state next to it?

that eastward distance could make a big difference for ottawa.

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It's out over at PSU. The big red L is smack dab over Montreal.

ok cool

well its a start, its defintely trended towards the ukie a bit, which i think was a big hit for you it appeared

seem roughly from southern lake erie to montreal

a definite shift south and east, good news for toronto, and perhaps something brewing for ottawa.

i may have to travel to my parents place in ottawa if the trend continues.

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Interesting prelim model discussion from the HPC

MODEL DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD

1242 PM EST FRI DEC 10 2010

VALID DEC 10/1200 UTC THRU DEC 14/0000 UTC

...SEE NOUS42 KWNO ADMNFD FOR THE STATUS OF THE UPPER AIR

INGEST...

12Z MODEL EVALUATION INCLUDING THE UKMET AND CANADIAN GLOBAL...

...LOW PRESSURE DEEPENING ACROSS THE PLAINS/MIDWEST/GREAT LAKES

THROUGH THE PERIOD...

PREFERENCE... 09Z SREF MEAN/00Z ECMWF... WITH SOME INPUT FROM THE

12Z NAM ESP NEAR THE SFC LOW...

THE 12Z NAM/GFS AND 00Z ECMWF FORM A VARIED CONSENSUS WITH THE SFC

LOW TRACKING THROUGH IA/IL/WI SATURDAY... THOUGH THE 12Z GFS DOES

TRAIL A BIT TO THE SOUTH OF THE NAM/ECMWF AND IS SEVERAL MB

DEEPER. ALL CLUSTER NEAR THE 09Z SREF MEAN AND 00Z ECMWF ENSEMBLE

MEANS AS THE LOW MOVES THROUGH NORTHERN LOWER MICHIGAN EARLY

SUNDAY BUT THE 12Z GEFS MEAN HAS PUSHED FARTHER SOUTH. THE 12Z

UKMET/CANADIAN ARE WELL SOUTH OVER CENTRAL IN/OH AND ARE RULED LOW PROBABILITY OUTLIERS. BY 12Z/13... THE OPERATIONAL MODELS FOCUS

LOW PRESSURE TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH OF THE SREF MEAN AND

GEFS/ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEANS AS DEVELOPMENT ALONG THE FRONT VARIES

FROM RUN TO RUN.

So they're definitely, at least tentatively, going with the farthest north suite of models, but I wonder if the 12z EURO's shift south will sway their thinking.

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Hmm..I dont know if Ive ever seen this. DTX actually changed Sundays wording at their 11am forecast update. Dont think Ive EVER seen them change a 4th period forecast wording in between the "main" 4am and 4pm forecast updates.

4am today:

SUNDAY...WINDY. SNOW LIKELY. LITTLE ACCUMULATION EXPECTED. HIGHS 24

TO 28...WITH WIND CHILLS AROUND ZERO. WEST WINDS 10 TO 20 MPH WITH

GUSTS TO 30 MPH...BECOMING NORTHWEST 20 TO 30 MPH LATE. CHANCE OF

SNOW 70 PERCENT.

11am today

SUNDAY...BRISK. SNOW LIKELY. ACCUMULATIONS POSSIBLE. HIGHS 26 TO

30. WEST WINDS 10 TO 20 MPH...BECOMING NORTHWEST 15 TO 25 MPH LATE.

CHANCE OF SNOW 70 PERCENT.

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Interesting prelim model discussion from the HPC

MODEL DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD

1242 PM EST FRI DEC 10 2010

VALID DEC 10/1200 UTC THRU DEC 14/0000 UTC

...SEE NOUS42 KWNO ADMNFD FOR THE STATUS OF THE UPPER AIR

INGEST...

12Z MODEL EVALUATION INCLUDING THE UKMET AND CANADIAN GLOBAL...

...LOW PRESSURE DEEPENING ACROSS THE PLAINS/MIDWEST/GREAT LAKES

THROUGH THE PERIOD...

PREFERENCE... 09Z SREF MEAN/00Z ECMWF... WITH SOME INPUT FROM THE

12Z NAM ESP NEAR THE SFC LOW...

THE 12Z NAM/GFS AND 00Z ECMWF FORM A VARIED CONSENSUS WITH THE SFC

LOW TRACKING THROUGH IA/IL/WI SATURDAY... THOUGH THE 12Z GFS DOES

TRAIL A BIT TO THE SOUTH OF THE NAM/ECMWF AND IS SEVERAL MB

DEEPER. ALL CLUSTER NEAR THE 09Z SREF MEAN AND 00Z ECMWF ENSEMBLE

MEANS AS THE LOW MOVES THROUGH NORTHERN LOWER MICHIGAN EARLY

SUNDAY BUT THE 12Z GEFS MEAN HAS PUSHED FARTHER SOUTH. THE 12Z

UKMET/CANADIAN ARE WELL SOUTH OVER CENTRAL IN/OH AND ARE RULED LOW PROBABILITY OUTLIERS. BY 12Z/13... THE OPERATIONAL MODELS FOCUS

LOW PRESSURE TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH OF THE SREF MEAN AND

GEFS/ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEANS AS DEVELOPMENT ALONG THE FRONT VARIES

FROM RUN TO RUN.

So they're definitely, at least tentatively, going with the farthest north suite of models, but I wonder if the 12z EURO's shift south will sway their thinking.

I suspect it will change with the new euro out and following the rest. Granted with them it is hard to say sometimes. Too many still caught up in the ole nw trend stuff as we even saw here recently. Hopefully ( have my doubts though ) this puts that to bed once and for all. As said these are not the same models we had when the nw trend was popular..

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Interesting prelim model discussion from the HPC

MODEL DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD

1242 PM EST FRI DEC 10 2010

VALID DEC 10/1200 UTC THRU DEC 14/0000 UTC

...SEE NOUS42 KWNO ADMNFD FOR THE STATUS OF THE UPPER AIR

INGEST...

12Z MODEL EVALUATION INCLUDING THE UKMET AND CANADIAN GLOBAL...

...LOW PRESSURE DEEPENING ACROSS THE PLAINS/MIDWEST/GREAT LAKES

THROUGH THE PERIOD...

PREFERENCE... 09Z SREF MEAN/00Z ECMWF... WITH SOME INPUT FROM THE

12Z NAM ESP NEAR THE SFC LOW...

THE 12Z NAM/GFS AND 00Z ECMWF FORM A VARIED CONSENSUS WITH THE SFC

LOW TRACKING THROUGH IA/IL/WI SATURDAY... THOUGH THE 12Z GFS DOES

TRAIL A BIT TO THE SOUTH OF THE NAM/ECMWF AND IS SEVERAL MB

DEEPER. ALL CLUSTER NEAR THE 09Z SREF MEAN AND 00Z ECMWF ENSEMBLE

MEANS AS THE LOW MOVES THROUGH NORTHERN LOWER MICHIGAN EARLY

SUNDAY BUT THE 12Z GEFS MEAN HAS PUSHED FARTHER SOUTH. THE 12Z

UKMET/CANADIAN ARE WELL SOUTH OVER CENTRAL IN/OH AND ARE RULED LOW PROBABILITY OUTLIERS. BY 12Z/13... THE OPERATIONAL MODELS FOCUS

LOW PRESSURE TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH OF THE SREF MEAN AND

GEFS/ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEANS AS DEVELOPMENT ALONG THE FRONT VARIES

FROM RUN TO RUN.

So they're definitely, at least tentatively, going with the farthest north suite of models, but I wonder if the 12z EURO's shift south will sway their thinking.

Definitely an interesting storm, and their throughts are with mine. Even as we speak surface analysis is in lock-step with NAM. Look at SD and the South flow/WAA which will push the front farther N and result in the farther N track/deeper cyclone. Compare to GFS winds at 18Z.

http://rap.ucar.edu/...e=-1&duration=0

GFS is already off with the surface low 6 hrs in...too far south.

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It is also sharper with the trough....I guess for me. the placements of the the UL lows in two days will be more important.

Well what I have said a lot lately, the upper level low placement will be strongly dependent upon which model properly develops deep cyclogenesis early on as that will alter the track of the upper low. Hence why NAM is farther NW with everything. As a feedback process being even a tiny bit wrong early can throw the forecast pretty quick.

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Debating between 1-3 and 2-4 for me. Given track uncertainty and exact positioning of deformation band, was tempted to lean lower but will go 2-4" as potential for combination of brief changeover prior to dryslot and then more snow wrapping around. The earlier thought of 10-15" up north might actually prove to be slightly conservative if trends continue.

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Debating between 1-3 and 2-4 for me. Given track uncertainty and exact positioning of deformation band, was tempted to lean lower but will go 2-4" as potential for combination of brief changeover prior to dryslot and then more snow wrapping around. The earlier thought of 10-15" up north might actually prove to be slightly conservative if trends continue.

I think 2-4" is a safe call.. Though I wouldn't be surprised at a few locations getting 5 or 6 by the end..

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