Snowiest towns in New England, by pop

[dryslot]

Due to drawdowns and old brook channels, Flagstaff's ice is very undependable. One of the logging/sawmilling Brochu family, a man with many decades of woods experience, lost his life there about 15 yr ago when his sled punched thru.

Do you ever ride the slower and (built with malice aforethought) more crooked Bigelow Loop trails?

No, I usually head either North or NW from Eustis as i have freinds there so i have free lodging, I usually head out towards King Of Bartlett over to Great Falls (Another nice View) to Bull dog Camps and over to Jackman, That makes for a pretty decent loop...

[dryslot]

Here is a view from Coburn Mtn @3,717', Its a hell of a ride to the top with the trail only wide enough for 1 sled, That day we were up there, We were in a snow squall, If you look just left of center That is Big Wood Lake over in Jackman..

[eekuasepinniW]

Here is "the horns" pond. Sits at about 3000' between the peaks. Tent platforms are right near by. I could have hung out there for a week. Short hikes to the main peaks from there.

Another tourism shot she did that was used.

Awesome photo though I can practically hear the mosquitoes buzzing.

[dryslot]

Awesome photo though I can practically hear the mosquitoes buzzing.

They were not buzzing in my photo........

[powderfreak]

I'm not sure any of those average >115 though, except South Lincoln maybe which has 1200' elevation.. I think the others might be too low. South Lincoln could be 120-125 though.

Montgomery could be up there too even though it's only at 900-1000'. And I don't know much about Underhill but it looks like most of the town is down around 800'. Ripton could be close too being at 1400' but it's south of the snow belt.

Yes we do. Check J.Spin's data for Waterbury, VT. He's not lying. He's had 200" season not too long ago at 495 feet. We get a ton of fluffy snowfall though so snowpack doesn't mirror snowfall necessarily... last year was around 145" here in town with near 200" at 1,500ft ski area base, and 320" at 3,600ft. And I personally measured all of those with one other person.

I'm not talking co-op measuring once a day but measuring upslope every 6 hours and you'll come up with a lot of snowfall. A lot of it comes in daily 1-3" snowfalls but a few biggies of upslope can help like early December's 20-incher and an 18-incher later in the season. Both from storms where other areas outside the upslope zone got very little. There's a lot of this town in the 1,000-1,800ft range and if you live in those areas you're definitely getting a lot of snow and almost daily snow in December and January.

[powderfreak]

Morrisville Co-Op in this area (10 miles from here in stowe and further from Mansfield) averages 100"... if you drive around here in the winter, not hard to imagine Stowe getting more than 115" on average if Mo'Ville gets 100".

http://www.erh.noaa....rrisville.shtml

Waitsfield, VT in the Mad River Valley gets 114" per the Co-Op there:

http://www.erh.noaa....aitsfield.shtml

And the closer you get to the Spine, the more snowfall you are going to get from the upslope factor. Like here I live between the ski area and the center of town. More snow falls to my west at the ski area, and less to my east towards town. Skierinvermont... You know how localized a lot of that snowfall can be.

[skierinvermont]

Yes we do. Check J.Spin's data for Waterbury, VT. He's not lying. He's had 200" season not too long ago at 495 feet. We get a ton of fluffy snowfall though so snowpack doesn't mirror snowfall necessarily... last year was around 145" here in town with near 200" at 1,500ft ski area base, and 320" at 3,600ft. And I personally measured all of those with one other person.

I'm not talking co-op measuring once a day but measuring upslope every 6 hours and you'll come up with a lot of snowfall. A lot of it comes in daily 1-3" snowfalls but a few biggies of upslope can help like early December's 20-incher and an 18-incher later in the season. Both from storms where other areas outside the upslope zone got very little. There's a lot of this town in the 1,000-1,800ft range and if you live in those areas you're definitely getting a lot of snow and almost daily snow in December and January.

Morrisville Co-Op in this area (10 miles from here in stowe and further from Mansfield) averages 100"... if you drive around here in the winter, not hard to imagine Stowe getting more than 115" on average if Mo'Ville gets 100".

http://www.erh.noaa....rrisville.shtml

Waitsfield, VT in the Mad River Valley gets 114" per the Co-Op there:

http://www.erh.noaa....aitsfield.shtml

And the closer you get to the Spine, the more snowfall you are going to get from the upslope factor. Like here I live between the ski area and the center of town. More snow falls to my west at the ski area, and less to my east towards town. Skierinvermont... You know how localized a lot of that snowfall can be.

One thing to remember about the Waitsfield Co-Op is that it's listed at 1,028' but the town is 700-800'. I've been in Waitsfield when the surrounding ridges get 2-3" and the town center gets nada. In addition to Morrisville at 100" there's Waterbury at 110" and 760'.. the same elevation as Stowe and possibly less downsloping off Mansfield. So perhaps 110" in Stowe as well using Co-op measurement technique? 120-140 as you go up Rt 108? Stowe is unique in that there is the town center, but then also a lot of people living near the resort. But in terms of the town centers do you really notice much of a difference driving up Rt 100 from Waterbury to Stowe? I've only done it a few times but I don't remember much difference.

Of course it depends how you measure, and whether we're talking about town centers or just parts of town where a significant # of people live. But let's say typical Co-Op measurement methods, and town centers.

I'd guess south lincoln, and ripton probably get 120-130 (Ripton is 1500') but neither are >1000 in population. Lincoln is, but Lincoln is a good bit lower than South Lincoln.

Or we could just forget about measurement technique and ask what is the snowiest town in VT with >1000 people (town centers only)? My guess is either Stowe, Underhill or Montgomery. All probably 110-120" using Co-Op measurement technique at the center of town or main road.

So I'd guess Rangeley is pretty similar to the low parts of Stowe.

[HIPPYVALLEY]

Awesome photo though I can practically hear the mosquitoes buzzing.

Yeah, for about 8 weeks a year. I've only camped there late Aug through late Sept. and usually the higher peaks have frosted out the 'skeeters.

[powderfreak]

Or we could just forget about measurement technique and ask what is the snowiest town in VT with >1000 people (town centers only)? My guess is either Stowe, Underhill or Montgomery. All probably 110-120" using Co-Op measurement technique at the center of town or main road.

So I'd guess Rangeley is pretty similar to the low parts of Stowe.

Yeah, the thing with stowe is that most of the people actually *don't* live near the town center... its mostly a "business center." Most of the population lives outside of the 750-800ft center of town where the businesses are. Most of the population lives in Stowe Hollow (900-1,600ft) or off the Mountain Road towards the ski resort on West Hill, Weeks Hill, Nebraska Notch, etc (all of which are 800ft to as much as 1,800ft on the east slope of the Spine/Mansfield's ridges).

I'm actually one of the few folks that lives down near 800ft on the business stretch of RT 108 because I just rent an apartment above a restaurant. I almost think that 75% of Stowe (population) gets more snow than I do just based on elevation alone. Just think when you drive to Stowe or the ski resort, you don't see many houses or residential units...its all businesses. I've been looking at an apartment at 1,400ft on one of the side streets and my snowfall would go much higher.

Plus, you get back to measuring techniques... you do every 6 hours religiously all winter long in the upslope region you're going to come up with numbers like J.Spin's which are 140-200". Its like the lake effect regions... measure once a day you get one number, measure every 6 hours for every fluffy inch that falls and you're going to get a lot of snow.

[powderfreak]

I will say that if you are saying "snowiest" towns as a combination of snowpack, snow retention, AND pure snowfall... the western Maine mountains have the Greens beat. I honestly believe that the northern Green Mountain spine communities get the most snowfall in the northeast as per NWS guidelines of measuring every 6 hours. That's "snowfall." But snowpack suffers due to the fluffy/high ratio nature of a lot of the snowfall. I bet this area sees the most days with at least a trace of snowfall... at the ski resort we run over 70% of winter days with a trace of snow recorded or flakes in the air. You could say "snow showers likely with a 70% chance" every day all winter long and be correct. Not many places outside lake effect belts where that is true.

But snowpack building and retention is not as good here as it is further east where almost all snowfall is synoptic, that's for sure. So if by "snowiest" you mean a combo of those factors, the western Maine mtns are probably better.

[borderwx]

don't know pops, don't really pay attention to averages. that being said, there is a very noticeable difference in Green Mt spine passes (1500 -2000+) vs. below. we can have spitting snow fluff at our house 15 miles east of Jay pass and you know the pass is getting hammered, often a 6-10inch difference. it is often not even snowing significantly in the town of Jay, a mere 5 miles from the top of the pass.

places like holland, morgan, norton, canaan also benefit from those upslope days, their snowpack is consistently deeper as their topography also places them in the ramp up to the higher elevations of essex county, same could be said for areas like glover as it heads up the flank of sheffield

[eekuasepinniW]

I will say that if you are saying "snowiest" towns as a combination of snowpack, snow retention, AND pure snowfall... the western Maine mountains have the Greens beat. I honestly believe that the northern Green Mountain spine communities get the most snowfall in the northeast as per NWS guidelines of measuring every 6 hours. That's "snowfall." But snowpack suffers due to the fluffy/high ratio nature of a lot of the snowfall. I bet this area sees the most days with at least a trace of snowfall... at the ski resort we run over 70% of winter days with a trace of snow recorded or flakes in the air. You could say "snow showers likely with a 70% chance" every day all winter long and be correct. Not many places outside lake effect belts where that is true.

But snowpack building and retention is not as good here as it is further east where almost all snowfall is synoptic, that's for sure. So if by "snowiest" you mean a combo of those factors, the western Maine mtns are probably better.

It's crazy how long the snow lingers up there. I was snooping around the Connecticut Lakes one year and there was still about two feet of snow on the ground in shaded areas. This was May 16th and it's not exactly on top of a mountain either, about 1600-1700 feet right along route three. Up towards the 3rd CT lake, it was still mid winter in appearance. Not even a hint that the trees were about to leaf out.

[mreaves]

don't know pops, don't really pay attention to averages. that being said, there is a very noticeable difference in Green Mt spine passes (1500 -2000+) vs. below. we can have spitting snow fluff at our house 15 miles east of Jay pass and you know the pass is getting hammered, often a 6-10inch difference. it is often not even snowing significantly in the town of Jay, a mere 5 miles from the top of the pass.

places like holland, morgan, norton, canaan also benefit from those upslope days, their snowpack is consistently deeper as their topography also places them in the ramp up to the higher elevations of essex county, same could be said for areas like glover as it heads up the flank of sheffield

I was also going to mention Eden as well. They are a bit south of you but always seem to have good snowpack. The towns bolded are in an area similar to the Rangely until you get into the CT River Valley. Then as you keep heading east the snow starts picking up again. Colebrook, NH is much less snowy than Coleman State Park a few miles farther east. The area around Diamond Pond gets absolutely hammered.

[Allenson]

Of course it depends how you measure, and whether we're talking about town centers or just parts of town where a significant # of people live. But let's say typical Co-Op measurement methods, and town centers..

I was kind of wondering about this--what sort of criteria you had in mind. Towns here, as in CT, are 'shapes' if you will, with boundaries, square mileage and of course, variations in terrain. One part of a hypothetical town may be deep in a valley, shadowed, etc. where as another part is back up in the hills/mountains and benefits snowfall-wise from orographic enhancement--but all in the same town.

Take here in Corinth, for example: the lowest part of town is around 700' in East Corinth and somewhat downsloped whereas the entire western end of town sits above 1000', most of it above 1200' and reaches 2200' on a couple ridgelines and certainly benefits from terrain/upslope enhancement and also the marginal-temp systems early and late in the season. The west end of town probably averages 120-140" while down in East Corinth, they'd likely end up 80-90". My locale is somewhat in the middle as far as this town goes but trends more toward the higher end.

Long story short, it depends where in any particular town that the numbers are coming out of...

[powderfreak]

I was kind of wondering about this what sort of criteria you had in mind. Towns here, as in CT, are 'shapes' if you will, with boundaries, square mileage and of course, variations in terrain. One part of a hypothetical town may be deep in a valley, shadowed, etc. where as another part is back up in the hills/mountains and benefits snowfall-wise from orographic enhancement--but all in the same town.

Take here in Corinth, for example: the lowest part of town is around 700' in East Corinth and somewhat downsloped whereas the entire western end of town sits above 1000', most of it above 1200' and reaches 2200' on a couple ridgelines and certainly benefits from terrain/upslope enhancement and also the marginal-temp systems early and late in the season. The west end of town probably averages 120-140" while down in East Corinth, they'd likely end up 80-90". My locale is somewhat in the middle as far as this town goes but trends more toward the higher end.

Long story short, it depends where in any particular town that the numbers are coming out of...

Bingo. I could say that in Stowe I could see averages anywhere from around 100" in the Lower Village near the Waterbury Center line, to near 200" if you live near the ski area base at 1,500ft on Mansfield.

[mreaves]

You really notice these types of differences out snombiling. You go through a lot of different terrain and trail conditions can vary drastically in the same town.

Another town that has high variability os Groton. The western part of the town gets considerably more snow than farther east and holds it much better. Of course there os a sizeable elevation difference. The Knox Range northeast of Barre has to get 200"+. I've seem it 5 ft deep on the level up high.

[skierinvermont]

Yeah, the thing with stowe is that most of the people actually *don't* live near the town center... its mostly a "business center." Most of the population lives outside of the 750-800ft center of town where the businesses are. Most of the population lives in Stowe Hollow (900-1,600ft) or off the Mountain Road towards the ski resort on West Hill, Weeks Hill, Nebraska Notch, etc (all of which are 800ft to as much as 1,800ft on the east slope of the Spine/Mansfield's ridges).

I'm actually one of the few folks that lives down near 800ft on the business stretch of RT 108 because I just rent an apartment above a restaurant. I almost think that 75% of Stowe (population) gets more snow than I do just based on elevation alone. Just think when you drive to Stowe or the ski resort, you don't see many houses or residential units...its all businesses. I've been looking at an apartment at 1,400ft on one of the side streets and my snowfall would go much higher.

Plus, you get back to measuring techniques... you do every 6 hours religiously all winter long in the upslope region you're going to come up with numbers like J.Spin's which are 140-200". Its like the lake effect regions... measure once a day you get one number, measure every 6 hours for every fluffy inch that falls and you're going to get a lot of snow.

Yeah I haven't been to all the towns mentioned, but I've driven through most of them at least. I think you are right in saying a lot of towns have significant populations living above the technical downturn but Stowe especially may be like that. I think also some of the increase in snow going up Rt 108 isn't just due to elevation, but also the proximity to the spine would you agree?

I guess my downtown distinction is kind of arbitrary.. I'm really just looking for a way to look at more developed areas as opposed to undeveloped areas like Ripton with relatively few people and one general store. Most of Stowe, including Rt 108, is certainly developed. So we might call it the snowiest developed area in New England. I think that's a meaninful distinction... it's an area where you are likely to live, work, shop, eat etc... unlike Ripton which I have driven through dozens of times and never even gotten out of the car.

Also the 200" at the base of Stowe is 6-hr measurement right? But what about the 110" in Waterbury... I'm not too familiar with how co-op observers typically measure, I'd guess there is some variability but they're not using perfect 6-hr measurements?

[ORH_wxman]

Also the 200" at the base of Stowe is 6-hr measurement right? But what about the 110" in Waterbury... I'm not too familiar with how co-op observers typically measure, I'd guess there is some variability but they're not using perfect 6-hr measurements?

Coop measurements can be anything between once every 6 hours or once per day. Both are "acceptable" but obviously they are not apples to apples comparisons which is why you always have to be careful looking at coop data and comparing them. Usually the only way to find out unless you know the observer is to look at how frequently they'll report their totals in the PNS and also compare their totals with nearby known 6 hour measurements.

[powderfreak]

Yeah I haven't been to all the towns mentioned, but I've driven through most of them at least. I think you are right in saying a lot of towns have significant populations living above the technical downturn but Stowe especially may be like that. I think also some of the increase in snow going up Rt 108 isn't just due to elevation, but also the proximity to the spine would you agree?

I guess my downtown distinction is kind of arbitrary.. I'm really just looking for a way to look at more developed areas as opposed to undeveloped areas like Ripton with relatively few people and one general store. Most of Stowe, including Rt 108, is certainly developed. So we might call it the snowiest developed area in New England. I think that's a meaninful distinction... it's an area where you are likely to live, work, shop, eat etc... unlike Ripton which I have driven through dozens of times and never even gotten out of the car.

Also the 200" at the base of Stowe is 6-hr measurement right? But what about the 110" in Waterbury... I'm not too familiar with how co-op observers typically measure, I'd guess there is some variability but they're not using perfect 6-hr measurements?

The 200" at 1,550ft snow board and snowstake location at the mouth of Smuggler's Notch just behind the winter-time closure of 108 is measured frequently but no more often than every 6 hours... I mean my job is to monitor weather and measure snow and watch wind data on the mountain. I have nothing else to do for most of the day except monitor that stuff for snowmaking, lifts, snow management (grooming), etc. I have one full-time professional ski patroller who helps with the measurements and board clearing. We never clear more than every 6 hours but we also have the benefit of being able to measure whenever we want (usually right as the snow is ending or lightening up). We also do more diligent 6-hour measurements during storms... like a 6am, 12pm, 6pm schedule. I live close enough (8-10 minute drive) to the base area snow board that I'll head up around 6pm during a snow event to clear one last time with a head-lamp. So usually its 3 measurements per day... with a 12 hour gap between 6pm and 6am.

I have no idea about the Waterbury number, but J.Spin's data is very extensive and is worth looking at... he is very diligent about every 6 hours and his set-up is second to none as far as accuracy goes. To be fair, J.Spin is right over the Waterbury line and directly under the spine where the Winooski Valley cuts through. His area probably gets at least 30% more snowfall than Waterbury village center. But again, it gets back to snowfall varies greatly even within towns. Back to Stowe, here you can get 6" overnight in part of town near the Spine, but the far eastern border will get flurries and broken skies. The Sterling Valley, Nebraska Valley, and West Branch drainage (108 towards Mansfield) all get more snow than Stowe Hollow on the east side of RT 100 towards the Worcester Range. All three of those valleys are drainages that head towards the Spine (stream/rivers that drain off the Spine heading for RT 100 corridor) and snowfall increases greatly as you head up those three valleys towards the Spine. So if you live up either of those, you'll get a lot more snow than the east side of Stowe. I'd love to know by just how much snowfall varies throughout town.. but Stowe is the 2nd largest town by land-area in the state of VT, with a lot of different large geographic changes so its no wonder snowfall probably varies by up to 70" around town.

Again though, NH and ME beat us handily for snow preservation and snowpack building. Couple the Spine areas snowfall with western ME mtns ability to hold snow, and that would be one awesome climate to live in

[mreaves]

The 200" at 1,550ft snow board and snowstake location at the mouth of Smuggler's Notch just behind the winter-time closure of 108 is measured frequently but no more often than every 6 hours... I mean my job is to monitor weather and measure snow and watch wind data on the mountain. I have nothing else to do for most of the day except monitor that stuff for snowmaking, lifts, snow management (grooming), etc. I have one full-time professional ski patroller who helps with the measurements and board clearing. We never clear more than every 6 hours but we also have the benefit of being able to measure whenever we want (usually right as the snow is ending or lightening up). We also do more diligent 6-hour measurements during storms... like a 6am, 12pm, 6pm schedule. I live close enough (8-10 minute drive) to the base area snow board that I'll head up around 6pm during a snow event to clear one last time with a head-lamp. So usually its 3 measurements per day... with a 12 hour gap between 6pm and 6am.

I have no idea about the Waterbury number, but J.Spin's data is very extensive and is worth looking at... he is very diligent about every 6 hours and his set-up is second to none as far as accuracy goes. To be fair, J.Spin is right over the Waterbury line and directly under the spine where the Winooski Valley cuts through. His area probably gets at least 30% more snowfall than Waterbury village center. But again, it gets back to snowfall varies greatly even within towns. Back to Stowe, here you can get 6" overnight in part of town near the Spine, but the far eastern border will get flurries and broken skies. The Sterling Valley, Nebraska Valley, and West Branch drainage (108 towards Mansfield) all get more snow than Stowe Hollow on the east side of RT 100 towards the Worcester Range. All three of those valleys are drainages that head towards the Spine (stream/rivers that drain off the Spine heading for RT 100 corridor) and snowfall increases greatly as you head up those three valleys towards the Spine. So if you live up either of those, you'll get a lot more snow than the east side of Stowe. I'd love to know by just how much snowfall varies throughout town.. but Stowe is the 2nd largest town by land-area in the state of VT, with a lot of different large geographic changes so its no wonder snowfall probably varies by up to 70" around town.

Again though, NH and ME beat us handily for snow preservation and snowpack building. Couple the Spine areas snowfall with western ME mtns ability to hold snow, and that would be one awesome climate to live in

The Knox Range in Groton and the highlands of the NEK come close, though the probably are a little lower in total snowfall.

[ineedsnow]

Just over the border in quebec is an amazing place to live ive seen some of the best snowstorms there and have seen snow until late may there.. This area has its own micro climate the difference between here and coaticook quebec or derby line vermont which both towns are only 10 miles away is pretty amazing.

http://www.chinci.com/travel/pax/q/6105994/Plage+du+Lac+Lyster/CA/Canada/0/

The Knox Range in Groton and the highlands of the NEK come close, though the probably are a little lower in total snowfall.

[powderfreak]

I'm not sure any of those average >115 though, except South Lincoln maybe which has 1200' elevation.. I think the others might be too low. South Lincoln could be 120-125 though.

Bump this thread for these numbers....

The CoCoRAHS numbers from this local area from last winter. I was estimating around 150" last winter here in Stowe and it looks like I was pretty darn close with the local CoCoRAHS observer. Amazing that the western side of the mountain in Underhill got 70" more (that's an increase of almost BTV's annual snowfall, haha)! For reference, we had around 220" at 1,500ft on the east side of Mansfield (Stowe Ski Resort Base) while Underhill had that amount 500ft lower on the western side.

Underhill (936ft)...223"

Waterbury (495ft)...197"

Richmond (733ft)...159.3"

Stowe (732ft)...150.1"

I'm telling you the Co-Op numbers do not even come close to actually getting a handle on the amount of snow that falls in this area. You will be hard pressed to find low elevation spots (under 1,000ft) in New England that get this type of snowfall (150-200"+). Just wait till we actually get into the sweet spot of a storm track for a winter, haha. These aren't mountain spots either... these are valley bottoms and decently inhabited areas (all things considered). These are four stations in the vicinity of Mansfield south to I-89 through the Spine.

Also, given that Underhill picked up 223" at under 1,000ft on the western slope of Mansfield... it is not that hard to imagine how the summit at 4,000ft gets well over 300".

[skierinvermont]

I probably was overestimating the importance of elevation a bit. Location can be just as important. To get 223" in one winter at lower than 1000' in what wasn't a top 3 winter for the region they must almost certainly average a good bit over 120".

[Allenson]

I'm telling you the Co-Op numbers do not even come close to actually getting a handle on the amount of snow that falls in this area.

I see reports from Nashville, VT sometimes, though not consistently. I think it might be a BTV employee that lives there but they don't show up in the NOWData. The next most proximal spot would be Hanksville, down that nice valley out of Hungtington, on the way to App Gap. Not sure of the elvation of the reporting site but the valley bottom itself at the village center is just under 1000'. This reporter chimed in at a reasonable 182" for last year and a 1981-2010 average of 128".

And of course this brings up the good ol' question of the frequency of measuring. Over-measuring gives inflated totals and I suspect there is some of this going on. Measuring only once every 24 hours however can actually deflate totals if conditions are just so and there are certainly those who can't measure more than this. It's too bad everyone can't get on the same page with this frequency issue because comparing snowfall measurements taken via different techniques is a proverbial apples & oranges issue.

As I've said before, as a co-op person, I take my measurement in the morning certainly and I also try to take one in the evening, if applicable. The apples and oranges issue rears its head between me and my nearest co-op neighbor, only eight miles west of here as the crow flies and a couple hundred feet higher than my place. Last year, I finished up at 121" and he reported 99" for a seaonal tally. Now, I know the patterns around here pretty well and I very much doubt that I got 22" more snow than he did. We did do better at my place than over there a couple times where we benefited from some ESE upslope flow, which is a local specialty for us, being wide open from that direction with little in the way all the way to the Atlantic. Even with Irene, I topped him by ~1.5 of rain due to this effect. I suspect though, that some of this 22" discrepency is the result of measuring frequency--if I took two a day and him, only one, over the course of an entire winter.

This is why I consider the melted liquid equivelent to be more important in many ways than inches of snow measured.

Interestingly enough, we just got our fall email reminder about co-op techniqes when dealing with snow. Here's a quote:

Clear your snowboard ONCE per day. This will give you the 24 hour snowfall amount. If it looks like it's going to melt, you can go out and measure before it does so. Measuring every hour can give you inflated snow totals.

Who the hell has time to measure every hour?

I probably was overestimating the importance of elevation a bit. Location can be just as important. To get 223" in one winter at lower than 1000' in what wasn't a top 3 winter for the region they must almost certainly average a good bit over 120".

I don't know for certain but I would guess that 223", even for Underhill, was a banner year. Again, Hanksville, in a similar setting, has a 1981-2010 average of 128".

[powderfreak]

I see reports from Nashville, VT sometimes, though not consistently. I think it might be a BTV employee that lives there but they don't show up in the NOWData. The next most proximal spot would be Hanksville, down that nice valley out of Hungtington, on the way to App Gap. Not sure of the elvation of the reporting site but the valley bottom itself at the village center is just under 1000'. This reporter chimed in at a reasonable 182" for last year and a 1981-2010 average of 128".

And of course this brings up the good ol' question of the frequency of measuring. Over-measuring gives inflated totals and I suspect there is some of this going on. Measuring only once every 24 hours however can actually deflate totals if conditions are just so and there are certainly those who can't measure more than this. It's too bad everyone can't get on the same page with this frequency issue because comparing snowfall measurements taken via different techniques is a proverbial apples & oranges issue.

As I've said before, as a co-op person, I take my measurement in the morning certainly and I also try to take one in the evening, if applicable. The apples and oranges issue rears its head between me and my nearest co-op neighbor, only eight miles west of here as the crow flies and a couple hundred feet higher than my place. Last year, I finished up at 121" and he reported 99" for a seaonal tally. Now, I know the patterns around here pretty well and I very much doubt that I got 22" more snow than he did. We did do better at my place than over there a couple times where we benefited from some ESE upslope flow, which is a local specialty for us, being wide open from that direction with little in the way all the way to the Atlantic. Even with Irene, I topped him by over 2" of rain due to this effect. I suspect though, that some of this 22" discrepency is the result of measuring frequency--if I took two a day and him, only one, over the course of an entire winter.

This is why I consider the melted liquid equivelent to be more important in many ways than inches of snow measured.

Interestingly enough, we just got our fall email reminder about co-op techniqes when dealing with snow. Here's a quote:

Who the hell has time to measure every hour?

I don't know for certain but I would guess that 223", even for Underhill, was a banner year. Again, Hanksville, in a similar setting, has a 1981-2010 average of 128".

All valid points but my first thought is why are Co-Ops only allowed to clear their board once a day, while everyone else (I know BTV airport/NWS office does this) clears 4 times per day? There's an upslope event from last December that I posted about recently in the NNE thread. If you read through that one, J.Spin and I both had 18-22" of snow over a two-day period yet our snow depth never exceeded 12". If you are only allowed to measure once per day, your snowfall total would likely be about half of what it is measuring this broom snow every 6 hours and adding those values up. This is likely why a lot of times the Co-Op snowfall are the lowest values in the PNS statements from BTV following snow storms. Technically you are following the standards by measuring every 6 hours and that is *not* over-measuring. Maybe if you do it every 3-4 hours but I doubt anyone who reports to CoCoRAHS is doing that.

And I hear you regarding Hanksville though to be honest, I'm not sure if it was a true banner year in Underhill. Certainly very snowy, but not a 2000-2001 or something like that. Their value is in line with J.Spin's and Spin has averaged 170" the past 5 seasons. Isn't Hanksville a co-op though measuring only once per day? If that is the case, then I could see an average of 128" quite easily which would probably be similar to J.Spin if he was allowed to only measure once per day in the morning. If Hanksville measures 4 times per day it probably adds four feet to their total. Lastly, without a doubt more snow falls along the Green Mountain spine north of I-89. Its hard to explain but I'm sure J.Spin and others will back that one up. Its why Jay Peak gets more snow... its just the further north the more synoptic moisture usually, better upslope from no blocking from the Adirondacks, etc. But Underhill would certainly average a decent bit more than Hanksville, IMO.

Either way, averaging 130" or 150" or 170"... its all A LOT of snow for elevations under 1,000ft. It just shows the power of topography in our region.

[Allenson]

It is a little confusing, I'll agree there. The guidelines say:

Measure and record the greatest amount of snowfall that has accumulated on your snowboard (wooden deck or ground if board is not available) since the previous snowfall observation. This measurement should be taken minimally once-a-day but can be taken up to four times a day, (every 6 hours) and should reflect the greatest accumulation of new snow observed (in inches and tenths, for example, 3.9 inches) since the last snowfall observation.

Snowfall amounts can be measured hourly or at any interval as long as the snow measurement board is NOT cleared more frequently than once every 6 hours. (their bolding, not mine)

If you are not available to watch snow accumulation at all times of the day and night, use your best estimate, based on a measurement of snowfall at the scheduled time of observation along with knowledge of what took place during the past 24 hours. If you are not present to witness the greatest snow accumulation, input may be obtained from other people who were near the station during the snow event. If your observation is not based on a measurement, record in your remarks that the "snow amount based on estimate".

http://www.nws.noaa....op/snowguid.htm

What I've learned from doing this is that measuring snow is not an exact science...for volunteers anyway that have jobs, families, homes to take care of, etc. There are a few duds out there but for the most part, it seems the co-op folks do a pretty decent job, considering the tools at hand, time contraints and the like. As for the Hanksville person--not sure how they measure...just like I'm not sure how my neighbor in Chelsea does it. I'm sure they follow the guidelines but I'm equally sure they have their own quirks as to how and when they do it, just as I do.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NWS guidelines are set up the way they are with volunteers in mind who can't sit there and watch their snowboards all day, though we may actually want to, lol.

Man I would think 223" would be a pretty big year, even for Underhill. Even Jay Peak's (2000') 1981-2000 average is 217" and came in last year at 239".

Anyway, sounds like it might be time for me to find, dig out and dust off my snow ruler and get the stake out for the season.

[powderfreak]

It is a little confusing, I'll agree there. The guidelines say:

http://www.nws.noaa....op/snowguid.htm

What I've learned from doing this is that measuring snow is not an exact science...for volunteers anyway that have jobs, families, homes to take care of, etc. There are a few duds out there but for the most part, it seems the co-op folks do a pretty decent job, considering the tools at hand, time contraints and the like. As for the Hanksville person--not sure how they measure...just like I'm not sure how my neighbor in Chelsea does it. I'm sure they follow the guidelines but I'm equally sure they have their own quirks as to how and when they do it, just as I do.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NWS guidelines are set up the way they are with volunteers in mind who can't sit there and watch their snowboards all day, though we may actually want to, lol.

Man I would think 223" would be a pretty big year, even for Underhill. Even Jay Peak's (2000') 1981-2000 average is 217" and came in last year at 239".

Anyway, sounds like it might be time for me to find, dig out and dust off my snow ruler and get the stake out for the season.

Yeah I went back and looked and 223" has to be a top 5 winter. You were/are right. All the sites outside of the Champlain Valley, last year seemed to be anywhere from 25-40" above normal. Maybe their average is close to J.Spin's at around 170". The Jay Peak station at 2,000ft came in with just a bit more than our Mansfield base snow board (1,500ft) where we had around 220". From what I've gathered, that Jay station does only measure once a day like the co-op rules. The Mansfield summit co-op measures only once a day, too, though it has collection issues as well. That's a whole other discussion, lol.

The bottom line is, I think that a good way to measure how "snowy" a place is or how "wintery" would be snow depth days. That seems to even the playing field a bit and although snowfall can be ambiguous, measuring snow depth really isn't as long as you're not measuring in the lee side of your house.

[Allenson]

The bottom line is, I think that a good way to measure how "snowy" a place is or how "wintery" would be snow depth days. That seems to even the playing field a bit and although snowfall can be ambiguous, measuring snow depth really isn't as long as you're not measuring in the lee side of your house.

Aye--number of days with snow on the ground, snow depth over the duration of the winter, number of days when snow falls and the amount that falls all tally up to snowishness.

Just for kicks, and a good illustration of the fluffiness of west slope snow you guys get, here's Hanksville's (182" for the season) average snow depth per month vs mine (121") for last year:

[size="2"]HANKSVILLE (433769)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Snow Depth (inches)
Years: 2010-2011

Season       Jul   Aug   Sep   Oct   Nov   Dec   Jan   Feb   Mar   Apr   May   Jun  Season
2010-2011    0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.1   8.1  13.3  20.6  14.8   1.4     -     -     5.8
[/size]

[size="2"]CORINTH (431565)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Snow Depth (inches)
Years: 2010-2011

Season       Jul   Aug   Sep   Oct   Nov   Dec   Jan   Feb   Mar   Apr   May   Jun  Season
2010-2011    0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.1   3.2  12.4  26.1  27.6  11.3   0.0     -     7.4
[/size]

We mostly missed out on the big December event you talked about in the NNE thread (had 17.9 for the whole month) but came on pretty strong mid/late season and of course held the pack very well.

Anyway--sorry man, we should be talking about the start of this year's snow, not last year's.

[tamarack]

The bottom line is, I think that a good way to measure how "snowy" a place is or how "wintery" would be snow depth days. That seems to even the playing field a bit and although snowfall can be ambiguous, measuring snow depth really isn't as long as you're not measuring in the lee side of your house.

Since I place a premium on winter looking wintry, not just having snowfall, I agree. The three places in Maine where I've tracked snow depth may be instructive, though not even Ft. Kent can run with the big boys for SDD.

Location

(winters)....Avg snow....Avg SDD....Highest........Lowest

Ft.Kent (9).....134".........2,902......5,715 (83-84)...1,229(80-81)

Gardiner(13)...79".........1,069......1,993 (93-94)......404 (90-91)

N.Sharon(13)..88".........1,650......3,835(07-08).......556 (05-06)

Compared to longer-term averages for nearby locations, my FK and Gardiner snowfall averages were each about 15% above normal, while NS is almost exactly on the Farmington avg.

SDD also highlights some winter oddities. In gardiner, my snowiest winter - by over 30" - was 1995-96 with 138.8". However, all that winter's thaws dropped its SDD to 5th place with 1,290. 1993-94 had 87.3" snowfall but cold wx meant that 50" less snow produced 700 more SDD.