snowlover2 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Main gusts associated with the the outflow a good several miles ahead of the line of storms. That might be true but it still doesn't excuse the lack of advanced warning to get everyone inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kab2791 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Where in my post do I mention this? That might be true but it still doesn't excuse the lack of advanced warning to get everyone inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Very unfortunate incident tonight. I have been at several fairs when storms have rolled in and I've never really gotten the sense that there was a coordinated plan to get people to safety. I guess I'm a little surprised that this type of thing doesn't happen more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Very unfortunate incident tonight. I have been at several fairs when storms have rolled in and I've never really gotten the sense that there was a coordinated plan to get people to safety. I guess I'm a little surprised that this type of thing doesn't happen more often. Sadly this is true, and there are many instances of unfortunate circumstances occurring due to storm coming upon a fair or large outdoor gathering. Really a sad situation, my prayers go out to these people down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowlover2 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Where in my post do I mention this? I'm sorry if i made it sound like you were making an excuse. I know you weren't and i didn't mean it that way. Like i said earlier, i've personally experienced something like this so i know how angry or frustrated some of these people must feel right now not getting enough warning to get to safety and it's making me equally frustrated. So again i apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm8 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Pics from the storm earlier this evening And one from a friend on FB: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 This would be another worst-case scenario for a strong/violent tornado as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KokomoWX Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Here is some raw footage my friend Steve took immediately following the collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KokomoWX Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I will mention I was taking photos at the Drum Core Championships at Lucas Oil Field tonight and I knew of the warning from my cell phone text. There was an announcement saying officials were monitoring the situation but we continued the show as planned. (Well, they had to stage everyone in the tunnel which caused some logistical problems.) Nothing else was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago WX Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 5 deaths now. PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT...CORRECTED NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE INDIANAPOLIS IN 910 AM EDT SUN AUG 14 2011 ..TIME... ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON... ..DATE... ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION..ST.. ...SOURCE.... ..REMARKS.. 0855 PM TSTM WND DMG INDIANA STATE FAIRGROUN 39.83N 86.13W 08/13/2011 MARION IN NWS EMPLOYEE *** 5 FATAL, 42 INJ *** STAGE COLLAPSE DURING CONCERT...MANY INJURIES...CORONER ON SCENE...WINDS ESTIMATED BETWEEN 60 AND 70 MPH. MULTIPLE SOURCES USED FOR THIS REPORT. INDIANAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF PROVIDED TIME. FATALITY AND INJURY NUMBERS UPDATED AS NEW INFORMATION IS RECEIVED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWXwx Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I am deeply saddened by last night's events in Indy. It also brings to the surface anger and a sense of frustration. As a member of Skywarn and the Emergency Management community, we work hard to save lives and protect property. I get so tired of hearing people say, "Oh, it's just a severe thunderstorm warning, not a tornado warning." Or, "Not another one? Nothing ever happens when they issue one of those." I've even heard organizers of local outdoor events say things like this. Look people, these warnings are being issued because a potentially dangerous situation exists, especially if you are outside!!! Almost none of the event organizers I've interacted with had a formal evacuation or shelter plan in place. Of course, they aren't anywhere near the size of the Indiana State Fair. I've also noticed the mindset of, "We''l wait until it gets close to see if it's going to be as bad as you say it might be." It's too late then! I've also heard from, "What's with the false alarm? Nothing happened" to "You didn't tell us it was going to be that bad." AARRRGGHHH! As long as event organizers worry more about the money or inconveniencing their patrons than their safety, these catastrophes will continue. The same goes for the general public. People trying to drive on flooded roads, getting hit by lightning, or having a tree fall on their head, just because, "It's not as bad as they are making it out to be." Sorry, I needed to vent. Thanks for letting me do it. End of rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KokomoWX Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I am deeply saddened by last night's events in Indy. It also brings to the surface anger and a sense of frustration. As a member of Skywarn and the Emergency Management community, we work hard to save lives and protect property. I get so tired of hearing people say, "Oh, it's just a severe thunderstorm warning, not a tornado warning." Or, "Not another one? Nothing ever happens when they issue one of those." I've even heard organizers of local outdoor events say things like this. Look people, these warnings are being issued because a potentially dangerous situation exists, especially if you are outside!!! Almost none of the event organizers I've interacted with had a formal evacuation or shelter plan in place. Of course, they aren't anywhere near the size of the Indiana State Fair. I've also noticed the mindset of, "We''l wait until it gets close to see if it's going to be as bad as you say it might be." It's too late then! I've also heard from, "What's with the false alarm? Nothing happened" to "You didn't tell us it was going to be that bad." AARRRGGHHH! As long as event organizers worry more about the money or inconveniencing their patrons than their safety, these catastrophes will continue. The same goes for the general public. People trying to drive on flooded roads, getting hit by lightning, or having a tree fall on their head, just because, "It's not as bad as they are making it out to be." Sorry, I needed to vent. Thanks for letting me do it. End of rant. You have pretty much summed up my thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 This appears to be the deadliest non-tornadic wind event in the U.S. since 2004. Edit: in one location. There was an event earlier this year that also had 5 deaths but spread out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyewall Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Zo Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2 "It's a very sad day at the state fair and our hearts are really breaking," Cindy Hoye, the fair's executive director, told reporters Sunday.State officials said investigators were beginning an investigation Sunday to determine what caused the collapse, and stressed that authorities and concertgoers alike acted quickly as the tragic accident unfolded. "It's not clear to me at this stage how anyone could have foreseen a sudden, highly localized gust of wind in one place," said Sunday [sic]. If the very basics of thunderstorm and warning forecasting are "not clear" to you, you probably have no business running an event of this magnitude. All the NWS meteorologists who have ever issued a warning are collectively wincing in frustration right now. Edit: Here's a timeline of the events that was posted on WTHR's website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm8 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2 If the very basics of thunderstorm and warning forecasting are "not clear" to you, you probably have no business running an event of this magnitude. All the NWS meteorologists who have ever issued a warning are collectively wincing in frustration right now. Edit: Here's a timeline of the events that was posted on WTHR's website. From Yahoo... http://news.yahoo.com/outdoor-stage-collapses-indiana-state-fair-022230858.html Concert officials had informed spectators prior to the show that the concert might have to be postponed due to the weather, but a strong gust blew the stage over before any official evacuation order was issued. Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels called the collapse "freakish," saying at the news conference that a storm was anticipated but the blast of wind that whipped through the grandstand area was unexpected. Its saddening really... especially after the severe weather season we've already had this year, you'd think people would really take more caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Zo Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 http://www.fox59.com...0,1682197.story State Police Sergeant Dave Bursten said weather reports were updated but the weather changes quickly in Indiana."There are procedures for weather emergencies. Those peronnel [sic] were going through the process. The weather can change from one report to another and that was the case here. According to the state polite timeline, it seems like they were waiting for the storms to arrive at around 9:15 PM. Once the warning goes out, then yes, things have changed -- and that's when action should have been taken. There was no damage to the midway or other parts of the fairgrounds. We believe this was an isolated wind gust that occurred," said Bursten. I might even speculate (based on the apparent lack of other damage in the fairground or in surrounding communities) that the wind that blew the stage over was sub-severe (or borderline, at best). The LSRs that were out for 70 MPH and 77 MPH wind gusts were a bit southwest of the fairgrounds. So -- maybe not an isolated gust, but an isolated easy target. Thoughts from Doswell, presented sans comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 So they had a 10 min NWS warning, didn't warn people for about 6 minutes, then didn't actually tell them to evacuate despite this same thing happening about 2 months ago at the Cheap Trick concert in Ottawa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*IndyMeso* Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 http://www.fox59.com...0,1682197.story According to the state polite timeline, it seems like they were waiting for the storms to arrive at around 9:15 PM. Once the warning goes out, then yes, things have changed -- and that's when action should have been taken. I might even speculate (based on the apparent lack of other damage in the fairground or in surrounding communities) that the wind that blew the stage over was sub-severe (or borderline, at best). The LSRs that were out for 70 MPH and 77 MPH wind gusts were a bit southwest of the fairgrounds. So -- maybe not an isolated gust, but an isolated easy target. Thoughts from Doswell, presented sans comment. This. It will be interesting to see what contractors will say about the structure of it when it fell. What frustrates me the most is the constant dodging of the question about preparedness during press conferences. I cant find an exact quote yet but the fair committee stated they were in constant contact with the NWS about the incoming severe weather. So, regardless of the fact that the storm itself turned severe, we all know any thunderstorm can cause damage and death. There was lightning when the storm came through so you mean to tell me that you were going to wait 30 minutes until the storm arrived only to have hundreds of people file out of the METAL grandstands all at once and have everyone be ok? I know I am venting but from an emergency management standpoint, this frustrates me to no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indystorm Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Unfortunately this seems to be a classic tragic example of how gust fronts which we can see on radar can rapidly surge ahead of the actual precip itself. I was riding in a van with family northbound on I-65 in Clinton County near the Frankfort exit when the gust front hit us a little earlier before the line moved se to Indy. The van rocked and our driver really had to hold on. It took awhile for the rain to begin. I agree with IWX wx's thoughts posted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 http://www.fox59.com...0,1682197.story According to the state polite timeline, it seems like they were waiting for the storms to arrive at around 9:15 PM. Once the warning goes out, then yes, things have changed -- and that's when action should have been taken. I might even speculate (based on the apparent lack of other damage in the fairground or in surrounding communities) that the wind that blew the stage over was sub-severe (or borderline, at best). The LSRs that were out for 70 MPH and 77 MPH wind gusts were a bit southwest of the fairgrounds. So -- maybe not an isolated gust, but an isolated easy target. Thoughts from Doswell, presented sans comment. As usual Doswell typically takes the extreme and most negative aspect of the argument, but I think in this case he nails almost all of it, at least based on the details that are available right now. I think he nailed it when he discusses litigation in our society, and it very well may be better for the concert promoters to have no plan than a plan that may fail. He also nailed it regarding the concert promotion as well as the possible financial cost to the promoters should the concert not go as planned. Perhaps they thought 10 mins would be enough so no refunds would be needed? I think that is what he is implying. http://cadiiitalk.blogspot.com/2011/08/magnifying-tragedy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Unfortunately this seems to be a classic tragic example of how gust fronts which we can see on radar can rapidly surge ahead of the actual precip itself. I was riding in a van with family northbound on I-65 in Clinto County near the Frankfort exit when the gust front hit us a little earlier before the line moved se to Indy. The van rocked and our driver really had to hold on. It took awhile for the rain to begin. I agree with IWX wx's thoughts posted above. This is also a classic example of why ordinary public citizens with phone radar apps shouldn't be calling the shots. There was no "freak" wind gust here, just a typical rapidly advancing outflow ahead of a collapsing storm. I can't believe the governor himself is trying to claim this was some freakish event that was not expected. Sure, it wasn't expected to folks without a meteorological background, but it definitely was not some freak unexpected wind gust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 This is also a classic example of why ordinary public citizens with phone radar apps shouldn't be calling the shots. There was no "freak" wind gust here, just a typical rapidly advancing outflow ahead of a collapsing storm. I can't believe the governor himself is trying to claim this was some freakish event that was not expected. Sure, it wasn't expected to folks without a meteorological background, but it definitely was not some freak unexpected wind gust. If anything another lesson here is something that is relatively new--the relative ease of obtaining weather information and how that information is used. Every ordinary joe can get a radar app on his phone as well as "personalized" forecasts. The problem, of course, is very few know how to use it! Suddenly everyone is relying on information they don't know how to properly use (or understand where it comes from). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Mind if I copy this from the other thread you just posted in Baro? -- Although the initial warning was issued in time, it did not provide an expected time of arrival for downtown Indianapolis or the Indiana State Fairgrounds. The SVS issued at 8:58 PM did but by then the damage was done. I'm not really faulting IND a whole lot as the burden of the blame should be directed toward the people in charge on the ground, but just speculating about whether things could've been done a little differently. That coupled with the fact organizers were using an iPhone to watch radar data, and probably had no idea what a gust front is, or to look for it, were the two biggest contributing factors I see. But I want to wait for IOSHA, IDHS, and whoever else to issue their reports before I lay too much blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Mind if I copy this from the other thread you just posted in Baro? -- That coupled with the fact organizers were using an iPhone to watch radar data, and probably had no idea what a gust front is, or to look for it, were the two biggest contributing factors I see. But I want to wait for IOSHA, IDHS, and whoever else to issue their reports before I lay too much blame. Yeah that is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*IndyMeso* Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Mind if I copy this from the other thread you just posted in Baro? -- That coupled with the fact organizers were using an iPhone to watch radar data, and probably had no idea what a gust front is, or to look for it, were the two biggest contributing factors I see. But I want to wait for IOSHA, IDHS, and whoever else to issue their reports before I lay too much blame. At this point, IDHS (Indiana Department of Homeland Security) is supporting the Indianapolis Department of Homeland Security (the two are very confusing so I am not sure if you were talking about Indiana or Indianapolis). The only support at this point from the state is the State Fire Marshal's office which a few of the code enforcement officers are on scene today and will be back at 8am tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 At this point, IDHS (Indiana Department of Homeland Security) is supporting the Indianapolis Department of Homeland Security (the two are very confusing so I am not sure if you were talking about Indiana or Indianapolis). The only support at this point from the state is the State Fire Marshal's office which a few of the code enforcement officers are on scene today and will be back at 8am tomorrow. I meant both! (Not really, but I do now.) I thought I heard the code enforcement would be working there, which is a branch of IDHS, but its all just letters in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*IndyMeso* Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I meant both! (Not really, but I do now.) I thought I heard the code enforcement would be working there, which is a branch of IDHS, but its all just letters in the end. Yep, correct. I work for IDHS (the state) so this all hits us pretty hard here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroclinic_instability Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Yep, correct. I work for IDHS (the state) so this all hits us pretty hard here. Just curious, what role does IDHS play in all this? What exactly does your agency do post event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowlover2 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 This. It will be interesting to see what contractors will say about the structure of it when it fell. What frustrates me the most is the constant dodging of the question about preparedness during press conferences. I cant find an exact quote yet but the fair committee stated they were in constant contact with the NWS about the incoming severe weather. So, regardless of the fact that the storm itself turned severe, we all know any thunderstorm can cause damage and death. There was lightning when the storm came through so you mean to tell me that you were going to wait 30 minutes until the storm arrived only to have hundreds of people file out of the METAL grandstands all at once and have everyone be ok? I know I am venting but from an emergency management standpoint, this frustrates me to no end. Completely agree. I was saying the same thing last night. It shouldn't matter if the storm was severe or not. They should have gotten everyone inside well before the storm moved in. The committee messed up big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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