meteorology on the front page of cnbc.com

[winterymix]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43672839

[baroclinic_instability]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43672839

The first comment, of course, is a met complaining about how bad the met market is.

[Sarwx]

Mike Smith is a big reason why the job market sucks for Mets. He has run a weather sweat shop in Wichita for many years now... over-working and seriously under-paying meteorologists, mostly straight out of school.

[PSUBlizzicane2007]

Mike Smith is a big reason why the job market sucks for Mets. He has run a weather sweat shop in Wichita for many years now... over-working and seriously under-paying meteorologists, mostly straight out of school.

Sounds like AccuWx.

[Sarwx]

Sounds like AccuWx.

Hence the merger with Accuwx and his company, WeatherData....

[PSUBlizzicane2007]

Hence the merger with Accuwx and his company, WeatherData....

Ah, didn't know that's who that was

[louwxman]

Mike Smith is a big reason why the job market sucks for Mets. He has run a weather sweat shop in Wichita for many years now... over-working and seriously under-paying meteorologists, mostly straight out of school.

I had the chance to work for him back in the 1980's.. turned it down.. Sweat shop at least back then is an accurate description. I didnt think much of him personally, but he knows his stuff and has trained some quality mets.

[VAwxman]

He sounds a lot like Myers from AccuWx. Folks respect what he was able to accomplish in the field as well, but definitely another contributor to the mediocre salaries out there.

[Ian]

Mike Smith is a big reason why the job market sucks for Mets. He has run a weather sweat shop in Wichita for many years now... over-working and seriously under-paying meteorologists, mostly straight out of school.

personal opinion as fact?

[Ian]

I had the chance to work for him back in the 1980's.. turned it down.. Sweat shop at least back then is an accurate description. I didnt think much of him personally, but he knows his stuff and has trained some quality mets.

i've been to weatherdata and seen his people at work. they werent being beaten. young people work for way less than they should all over the place to get into a field--at least it's additional jobs in one that needs them apparently. you guys should tone down your rhetoric.. it's kind of sad.

[nrgjeff]

Yes, WeatherData is a good place to start a Met career. Some Mets have stayed on and taken on hybrid roles in business, making a good living. Mike has contributed so much to the profession, and a young Met learns a boat load there. Keep in mind the low cost of living in Kansas. Also WeatherData Mets are sought after in other wx-sensitive industries. If you like severe wx, you can’t beat the Wichita location!

i've been to weatherdata and seen his people at work. they werent being beaten. young people work for way less than they should all over the place to get into a field--at least it's additional jobs in one that needs them apparently. you guys should tone down your rhetoric.. it's kind of sad.

[Sarwx]

personal opinion as fact?

I would view it as fact on how he ran WxData and treated Mets... but obviously opinion on him hurting our field (meteorologists).

I worked for him way back at start of my career... actually left another Met job to go there, as WxData is quite good at the sales pitch. Decided that constantly changing work hours, excessively long hours, and a work environment that belittled you until you 'towed the company line'... well, just wasn't worth a salary not much different than mowing lawns for a living. I went back to my old job, for essentially the same pay, and was much happier.

Now that's my experience, and of course not everyone's. I know of many others that have gone through WxData with very similar stories and opinions on the place. We even jokingly have a club for surviving employment at WxData. Now it was not a horrible place... but could only be viewed as a 'first job' type of place. I know of hardly anyone that stayed beyond 2 years (hence their 2-year contract they made your sign). We all do need to get our feet wet in our careers, and to that end, this place fulfills that purpose. You can and will learn things there... not really from Mike Smith per se... but certainly from other Mets, and the job roles you take on. It was/is another AccuWx... just with a different client focus.

My opinion is these places really hurt our industry. It puts our hard-earned degree at a rather low level of importance... saying you're only worth $18K a year (my experience) after all that schoolwork and effort. Forecasting weather should be viewed as a highly skilled job, and should be paid as such... like along the lines of an engineer, etc.. The discrepancy of starting salaries between Meteorologists and other similar scientific degrees is pretty large... and again, my opinion, is that places such as WxData and AccuWx have played a big part in this. I realize there are other professions that suffer in a similar fashion (teachers for example), so I'm not trying to say this is isolated to our field. But to me, these type of companies only hurt the process of getting our field recognized as being a valuable and essential job role in day to day life. It is of course easier for me to say this, given I do work in an industry that highly values our field, and pays us appropriately. I am extremely grateful for that. I guess I'm arguing that I should not be the exception, and would rather see all Mets payed and treated much more appropriately for the value they add to their respective industries.

[Ed Lizard]

My opinion is these places really hurt our industry. It puts our hard-earned degree at a rather low level of importance... saying you're only worth $18K a year (my experience) after all that schoolwork and effort. Forecasting weather should be viewed as a highly skilled job, and should be paid as such... like along the lines of an engineer, etc.. The discrepancy of starting salaries between Meteorologists and other similar scientific degrees is pretty large... and again, my opinion, is that places such as WxData and AccuWx have played a big part in this.

Your average college professor has a PhD, but doesn't make the what LeBron or Kobe gets.

It is what the market will pay. There is a surplus of mets, best I can tell, with some working outside the career field, so private companies, in competition with each other, have reason to hold costs down so they can try to charge competitive rates, can offer lower salaries for a position that requires hard work in college.

There are no engineering forums with engineer red taggers and enthusiastic amateurs who post their opinions on material solids or the use of dimensionless constants like the Reynolds Number in designing pumping and piping systems. There aren't many 14 year olds in Mom's basement who want to chat with an engineer about mass balances or the radial diffusivity equation.

A lot of 18 year olds want to be mets, hence weather forums, also hence colleges willing to accept and churn out more mets than the market can absorb.

[Ian]

I would view it as fact on how he ran WxData and treated Mets... but obviously opinion on him hurting our field (meteorologists).

I worked for him way back at start of my career... actually left another Met job to go there, as WxData is quite good at the sales pitch. Decided that constantly changing work hours, excessively long hours, and a work environment that belittled you until you 'towed the company line'... well, just wasn't worth a salary not much different than mowing lawns for a living. I went back to my old job, for essentially the same pay, and was much happier.

Now that's my experience, and of course not everyone's. I know of many others that have gone through WxData with very similar stories and opinions on the place. We even jokingly have a club for surviving employment at WxData. Now it was not a horrible place... but could only be viewed as a 'first job' type of place. I know of hardly anyone that stayed beyond 2 years (hence their 2-year contract they made your sign). We all do need to get our feet wet in our careers, and to that end, this place fulfills that purpose. You can and will learn things there... not really from Mike Smith per se... but certainly from other Mets, and the job roles you take on. It was/is another AccuWx... just with a different client focus.

My opinion is these places really hurt our industry. It puts our hard-earned degree at a rather low level of importance... saying you're only worth $18K a year (my experience) after all that schoolwork and effort. Forecasting weather should be viewed as a highly skilled job, and should be paid as such... like along the lines of an engineer, etc.. The discrepancy of starting salaries between Meteorologists and other similar scientific degrees is pretty large... and again, my opinion, is that places such as WxData and AccuWx have played a big part in this. I realize there are other professions that suffer in a similar fashion (teachers for example), so I'm not trying to say this is isolated to our field. But to me, these type of companies only hurt the process of getting our field recognized as being a valuable and essential job role in day to day life. It is of course easier for me to say this, given I do work in an industry that highly values our field, and pays us appropriately. I am extremely grateful for that. I guess I'm arguing that I should not be the exception, and would rather see all Mets payed and treated much more appropriately for the value they add to their respective industries.

Well, sounds like you know him a whole lot better than I do so I guess I can't say you don't deserve to have a strong opinion. Given the connotation of sweat shops, I'd say equating his (now accuwx's) company to one is borderline slanderous. I suppose you're in a position in your career that burning bridges in public is not a problem.

I guess I don't know what NWS etc pay starters. 18k now sure sounds low tho I'm guessing it's gone up a bit since you were there if it was a while ago. Given how it seems there has been a lack of met jobs over the past decade or so and the amount of people coming out of school with a degree it seems any place offering a job in the field is better than not having such a place.

I've only spoken to Mike a few times. He seemed like a really nice guy to me. I could never fully fault someone who is interested in saving lives.

[am19psu]

Your average college professor has a PhD, but doesn't make the what LeBron or Kobe gets.

It is what the market will pay. There is a surplus of mets, best I can tell, with some working outside the career field, so private companies, in competition with each other, have reason to hold costs down so they can try to charge competitive rates, can offer lower salaries for a position that requires hard work in college.

There are no engineering forums with engineer red taggers and enthusiastic amateurs who post their opinions on material solids or the use of dimensionless constants like the Reynolds Number in designing pumping and piping systems. There aren't many 14 year olds in Mom's basement who want to chat with an engineer about mass balances or the radial diffusivity equation.

A lot of 18 year olds want to be mets, hence weather forums, also hence colleges willing to accept and churn out more mets than the market can absorb.

Ed, this was a really good post. I agree with it in total. The unfortunate thing about a meteorology degree is that you need to be able to set yourself apart from your peers and potentially sacrifice a lot of things to get somewhere because the field is so saturated. On the other hand, I'm making less than I would with a engineering degree but guarantee I derive more personal satisfaction from my job than the average well paid engineer. It's a trade off.

[Sarwx]

Well, sounds like you know him a whole lot better than I do so I guess I can't say you don't deserve to have a strong opinion. Given the connotation of sweat shops, I'd say equating his (now accuwx's) company to one is borderline slanderous. I suppose you're in a position in your career that burning bridges in public is not a problem.

I guess I don't know what NWS etc pay starters. 18k now sure sounds low tho I'm guessing it's gone up a bit since you were there if it was a while ago. Given how it seems there has been a lack of met jobs over the past decade or so and the amount of people coming out of school with a degree it seems any place offering a job in the field is better than not having such a place.

I've only spoken to Mike a few times. He seemed like a really nice guy to me. I could never fully fault someone who is interested in saving lives.

I hope I didn't sound like I was making it personal towards Mike... I don't truly know him enough to go there, and it's been 15+ years. I've seen him be quite ugly to folks before... but again, that was years ago. I'm sure he has many good points worth mentioning.

Guess my passion here is more that I want to see more Mets employed and more Mets paid well. I don't feel I"m anymore special than any other Met, and have been very blessed. Just would like to see that with all good Mets out there.

[Ian]

I hope I didn't sound like I was making it personal towards Mike... I don't truly know him enough to go there, and it's been 15+ years. I've seen him be quite ugly to folks before... but again, that was years ago. I'm sure he has many good points worth mentioning.

Guess my passion here is more that I want to see more Mets employed and more Mets paid well. I don't feel I"m anymore special than any other Met, and have been very blessed. Just would like to see that with all good Mets out there.

Well like I said I can't fully discount your thoughts. I have very little info comparitively. I am no fan of Accu and do notice his digs at NWS from time to time. I work in a similar field of low pay overall with highly skilled if less scientific folks. I guess I assumed a lot of people out there get crap pay and I am a fan of competition when healthy. I do agree that people should be treated well in a work environment and if they aren't they should head to better waters.

[nrgjeff]

Meteorology is s strange profession. Starting pay can be well below our engineering friends. In TV alone the range from weekend met to chief met is staggering, but I'm not an expert on TV. I know at the NWS salaries move up with time which is good for the met. The funny thing is an experienced met doing catastrophic modeling for a reinsurance company or demand forecasting for an energy company can do better than the engineering friend across the street. Depends on what type of engineer at which company, but meteorology can pay over time. Other high paying mid-career met jobs are found in defense, numerical modeling and wind energy. People just need to be willing to grind through those early years. Nobody is entitled to anything, like a perfect job, without hard work. Don't give up and follow your dream: to do what you love Monday-Friday and get paid well doing it.

[baroclinic_instability]

Coming from the private industry where 25k salaries per year are the norm, I have experience knowing what it is like working in such an environment. While I can't speak at all for Mike Smith or his company, I can say many private weather companies solely profit off lowest bid contracts. These private met companies are not raking in huge revenues, and as a result, some significant level of automation (and also degradation of the forecast product) will occur. Just like most everything else, money drives everything. I don't blame some of the private companies for paying so low simply because the cash isn't there. The more profit potential involved (which almost always results in a need for higher quality products/customer service), the higher the salaries go as more talented/experienced/multi-skilled forecasters/meteorologists are needed. Throw in the over-excessive 4-1 or 5-1 supply to demand, the simple fact is many companies are willing to start mets/forecasters out of college at very low salaries, and many of those mets are more than willing to exploit that experience they garner for something better.

[BillB]

I guess I don't know what NWS etc pay starters. 18k now sure sounds low tho I'm guessing it's gone up a bit since you were there if it was a while ago. Given how it seems there has been a lack of met jobs over the past decade or so and the amount of people coming out of school with a degree it seems any place offering a job in the field is better than not having such a place.

I've only spoken to Mike a few times. He seemed like a really nice guy to me. I could never fully fault someone who is interested in saving lives.

2010/2011 GS5-1 is $27,431 or $13.14 per hour

For historical comparison:

1994 GS5-1 was $18,340 or $8.79 per hour.

1987 GS5-1 was $14,822

I have never met Mr Smith. All I know of him is a second-hand report from 1993 that came from a contact at Oakland County MI Emergency Management; according to this report, Mr Smith or a representative, while speaking at a major factory/employer in that area, belittled the Skywarn spotter program. Don't know if this is accurate or if it got distorted while "travelling the grapevine".

[SnowGoose69]

Coming from the private industry where 25k salaries per year are the norm, I have experience knowing what it is like working in such an environment. While I can't speak at all for Mike Smith or his company, I can say many private weather companies solely profit off lowest bid contracts. These private met companies are not raking in huge revenues, and as a result, some significant level of automation (and also degradation of the forecast product) will occur. Just like most everything else, money drives everything. I don't blame some of the private companies for paying so low simply because the cash isn't there. The more profit potential involved (which almost always results in a need for higher quality products/customer service), the higher the salaries go as more talented/experienced/multi-skilled forecasters/meteorologists are needed. Throw in the over-excessive 4-1 or 5-1 supply to demand, the simple fact is many companies are willing to start mets/forecasters out of college at very low salaries, and many of those mets are more than willing to exploit that experience they garner for something better.

Thats the main reason the pay is not that good. The problem is that most clients are not willing to pay huge cash for something they could get from the NWS anyway, just with a less personal approach. The other is that if one guy wants to charge a high amount the client will just jump over to another private sector company and get the same service for less. Thats the big advantage Accuwx, Telvent, and WSI have in that they can really undercut some of the smaller firms prices and steal the client away forcing the little guys to have to really give the service for cheap and hence have to pay their employees cheap as well.

[baroclinic_instability]

Thats the main reason the pay is not that good. The problem is that most clients are not willing to pay huge cash for something they could get from the NWS anyway, just with a less personal approach. The other is that if one guy wants to charge a high amount the client will just jump over to another private sector company and get the same service for less. Thats the big advantage Accuwx, Telvent, and WSI have in that they can really undercut some of the smaller firms prices and steal the client away forcing the little guys to have to really give the service for cheap and hence have to pay their employees cheap as well.

Well yes, that is partially true, but I was referencing more of the road wx industry where state DOT's more or less have to take the lowest bids from the private corporations.

[OSUmetstud]

2010/2011 GS5-1 is $27,431 or $13.14 per hour

For historical comparison:

1994 GS5-1 was $18,340 or $8.79 per hour.

1987 GS5-1 was $14,822

I have never met Mr Smith. All I know of him is a second-hand report from 1993 that came from a contact at Oakland County MI Emergency Management; according to this report, Mr Smith or a representative, while speaking at a major factory/employer in that area, belittled the Skywarn spotter program. Don't know if this is accurate or if it got distorted while "travelling the grapevine".

almost no one who starts in the NWS makes that much to start though. You get both locality pay, night and Sunday differential. Plus, I'd have to imagine the majority of interns starting are not getting hired at GS-05.

[BillB]

almost no one who starts in the NWS makes that much to start though. You get both locality pay, night and Sunday differential. Plus, I'd have to imagine the majority of interns starting are not getting hired at GS-05.

These numbers are RUS (Rest of the US) values. Not everyone has the advantage of working in a locality pay area. Two quick examples that are in RUS: Binghamton NY and State College PA.

GS5-1 is where the bidding starts, and historically is where we all began. This is the minimum you can expect as a newly hired met intern. If you can get in as a 7 or a 9, with higher step-1 pay, then good for you. The rest of us, in our day, did not. So this is a valid number to use, even more so because I was using comparisons with earlier years when entry-level 7s and 9s were the exceptions to the rule.

[OSUmetstud]

These numbers are RUS (Rest of the US) values. Not everyone has the advantage of working in a locality pay area. Two quick examples that are in RUS: Binghamton NY and State College PA.

GS5-1 is where the bidding starts, and historically is where we all began. This is the minimum you can expect as a newly hired met intern. If you can get in as a 7 or a 9, with higher step-1 pay, then good for you. The rest of us, in our day, did not. So this is a valid number to use, even more so because I was using comparisons with earlier years when entry-level 7s and 9s were the exceptions to the rule.

2010/2011 GS tables show over 31K for GS-05-1 for the RUS. The number you quoted was the base salary. Yeah. I can understand the comparison there. I'm guessing nowadays there are more GS-07 or GS-09 people hired as interns since it is so crazy competitive and masters candidates and people with significant experience etc. are more the rule than the exception.