blackjack123 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Just curious what does 80dBz mean, and what is the difference between fixed cape and mucape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Just curious what does 80dBz mean, and what is the difference between fixed cape and mucape. The 80 I mentioned was a VIL. For a while, it seemed popular when the 88D was new for estimating hail stone size. Vertically integrated liquid, but ice is more reflective than water, so the name is a little inaccurate. Hail to VIL, from my understanding, is somewhat complex, for a while I used to see mention of VIL of the day, but now, not so much. I still see NWS give hail estimates based on radar, not sure if that is VIL based or something else. MUCAPE is Most Unstable Cape. SB is surface based. I often prefer mixed layer myself. Quick Google find... http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/mmb/tips/tip.jul02.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpeters3 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Just curious what does 80dBz mean, and what is the difference between fixed cape and mucape. in short, dBz is the power returned to the radar when the beam reflects off raindrops, hail, bees, snow, debris, etc. 80 dBz is a very high and very rare value of this quantity - usually means there are very large objects airborne (large hail or debris) i'm assuming "fixed cape" is usually computed for a parcel lifted from the surface most unstable cape is the highest cape value of cape for an air parcel lifted from any height in the atmospheric column. In the case of elevated convection, air parcels lifted above an inversion may have cape, while cooler parcels lifted from below the inversion don't have cape. In this case, there may be little or no surface based cape, but significant most unstable cape. In situations where there is a lot of surface heating, the most unstable air parcels usually originate from the surface, so SBCAPE=MUCAPE in these situations. make sense? edit: ahh, you said "mixed layer", not "fixed layer". I think mixed layer is the average cape through the well-mixed boundary layer - usually it is pretty close to surface based cape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokeEater Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 NEC145-200200- /O.CON.KGLD.TO.W.0027.000000T0000Z-110620T0200Z/ RED WILLOW NE- 829 PM CDT SUN JUN 19 2011 ...A TORNADO WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR NORTHERN RED WILLOW COUNTY UNTIL 900 PM CDT... AT 825 PM CDT...TRAINED WEATHER SPOTTERS REPORTED A TORNADO. THIS TORNADO WAS LOCATED 7 MILES NORTH OF MCCOOK...AND WAS MOVING EAST AT 30 MPH. MULTIPLE BRIEF TORNADOES HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED BY STORM CHASERS. LOCATIONS IMPACTED INCLUDE... MAINLY RURAL AREAS OF NORTHERN RED WILLOW COUNTY. THIS INCLUDES HIGHWAY 83 BETWEEN MILE MARKERS 20 AND 25. PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS... TO REPEAT...A TORNADO HAS BEEN CONFIRMED BY TRAINED WEATHER SPOTTERS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 looks like lb and brett are both near the nice hook in s neb near indianola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The 80 I mentioned was a VIL. For a while, it seemed popular when the 88D was new for estimating hail stone size. Vertically integrated liquid, but ice is more reflective than water, so the name is a little inaccurate. Hail to VIL, from my understanding, is somewhat complex, for a while I used to see mention of VIL of the day, but now, not so much. I still see NWS give hail estimates based on radar, not sure if that is VIL based or something else. MUCAPE is Most Unstable Cape. SB is surface based. I often prefer mixed layer myself. Quick Google find... http://www.emc.ncep..../tip.jul02.html One major reason why "VIL of the day" is not as popular (and you can count me as one of these people) is because is it vertically integrated you must wait for an entire volume scan to complete before getting the next image. Therefore you can lose lead time on an event. I try as often as I can to look at the real data when making warning decisions (i.e. reflectivity, velocity (base/SRM), and spectrum width), while the rest is more of safety net in case I miss something. For instance, at GYX we still have VIL threshold alarms that trigger at certain levels to clue us in that a warning might be necessary. But it often false alarms for large amounts of small hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpeters3 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The 80 I mentioned was a VIL. For a while, it seemed popular when the 88D was new for estimating hail stone size. Vertically integrated liquid, but ice is more reflective than water, so the name is a little inaccurate. Hail to VIL, from my understanding, is somewhat complex, for a while I used to see mention of VIL of the day, but now, not so much. I still see NWS give hail estimates based on radar, not sure if that is VIL based or something else. MUCAPE is Most Unstable Cape. SB is surface based. I often prefer mixed layer myself. Quick Google find... http://www.emc.ncep..../tip.jul02.html the relationship for dbz goes something like dBz proportional to D^6, so larger objects reflect back enormously more power than smaller objects. When VIL is calculated, (if memory serves me correctly from cloud physics), you basically solve the relationship between dBz and D in terms of D^3 on the LHS (which is proportional to mass) and other terms on the RHS. The integral of the resulting quantity is then taken through the vertical layer - hail must represent a more concentrated "storage" of liquid within air parcels than rain, so that high VIL correlates to large hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjack123 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ok thank you for the information. So can dBz be like a reflectivity of like a debris ball as seen on radar as well as other things(hail, wind etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ok thank you for the information. So can dBz be like a reflectivity of like a debris ball as seen on radar as well as other things(hail, wind etc). dBZ is just a measure of power returned, so it can be anything. Rain, hail, debris, insects, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k*** Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ok thank you for the information. So can dBz be like a reflectivity of like a debris ball as seen on radar as well as other things(hail, wind etc). I don't get how you can always offer your opinions re: tornado ratings and follow severe wx constantly yet be asking these questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm8 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Ok thank you for the information. So can dBz be like a reflectivity of like a debris ball as seen on radar as well as other things(hail, wind etc). Not wind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokeEater Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Circulation increasing now, finally stopped sucking storms into itself. SEVERE WEATHER STATEMENT NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE TOPEKA KS 902 PM CDT SUN JUN 19 2011 KSC061-127-197-200230- /O.CON.KTOP.TO.W.0026.000000T0000Z-110620T0230Z/ MORRIS-GEARY-WABAUNSEE- 902 PM CDT SUN JUN 19 2011 ...A TORNADO WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 930 PM CDT FOR WEST CENTRAL WABAUNSEE...SOUTHEASTERN GEARY AND NORTH CENTRAL MORRIS COUNTIES... AT 857 PM CDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR CONTINUED TO INDICATE A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM WITH STRONG ROTATION AND A WALL CLOUD CAPABLE OF PRODUCING A TORNADO. THIS STORM WAS LOCATED 10 MILES WEST OF DWIGHT...OR 12 MILES SOUTH OF JUNCTION CITY...MOVING EAST AT 15 MPH. LOCATIONS IMPACTED INCLUDE... DWIGHT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Nasty warned cell headed for Imperial. Also the cap is breaking in SW Iowa and E Nebraska. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpeters3 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't get how you can always offer your opinions re: tornado ratings and follow severe wx constantly yet be asking these questions. Asking questions is a good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Asking questions is a good thing! Not when they are the same ones over and over... Just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The KS cell Is underutilizing it's parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k*** Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Asking questions is a good thing! Thats not what I was implying. I'm sure that there are others that get my point. Anyways, it's whatever. Back to the storms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The KS cell Is underutilizing it's parameters. LCLs and a decoupling boundary layer ftl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indystorm Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I assume the LLJ must be kicking in. Our KS supercell seems to be taking a more northward component having ingested a cell on its western edge, and there is an e-w line of storms starting to form south of Omaha now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpeters3 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Thats not what I was implying. I'm sure that there are others that get my point. Anyways, it's whatever. Back to the storms. I think i understand your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 00z NAM is a bit slower and stronger (also farther south?) with the low kicking out tomorrow compared to the 18z run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmagan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Imperial, KS with a wind gust to hurricane force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 NAM is significantly cooler with H7 temps across nrn IL/IN tomorrow evening and breaks out convection along the warm front with a very unstable and highly-sheared atmosphere. ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k*** Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 What a weird evolution for the KS supercell...never seen one get stretched and destroyed that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Storm Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I assume the LLJ must be kicking in. Our KS supercell seems to be taking a more northward component having ingested a cell on its western edge, and there is an e-w line of storms starting to form south of Omaha now. A few of which are tor warned, and others severe warned that have rotation/meso's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersnow12 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 NAM is significantly cooler with H7 temps across nrn IL/IN tomorrow evening and breaks out convection along the warm front with a very unstable and highly-sheared atmosphere. ****. you could say that again....huge difference from the 12z run. With good mid-level westerly flow on the north side of the ridge coupled with backed sfc winds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Five elevated supercells lined up really neatly right now in srn NE - northeast CO. All TOR-warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 you could say that again....huge difference from the 12z run. With good mid-level westerly flow on the north side of the ridge coupled with backed sfc winds. Lift mechanism is going to be the right-entrance region of the jet streak over WI/MI. If those H7 temps verify then we are up a creek w/o a paddle here tomorrow evening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundersnow12 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Lift mechanism is going to be the right-entrance region of the jet streak over WI/MI. If those H7 temps verify then we are up a creek w/o a paddle here tomorrow evening... Sh*ts Creek to be exact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 What a weird evolution for the KS supercell...never seen one get stretched and destroyed that way kinda struggled all along even if it was a giant too. warm sector ftl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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