on_wx Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Does anyone have any information or weather maps on details about the July 30 1978 Yellowknife NWT tornado? If you have not heard of this one, a mile wide F2 wedge tornado struck just outside of Yellowknife, Northwest Territories in northern Canada Third from the botton: http://www.islandnet...ac/diaryjul.htm Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....outbreaks#1970s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Does anyone have any information or weather maps on details about the July 30 1978 Yellowknife NWT tornado? If you have not heard of this one, a mile wide F2 wedge tornado struck just outside of Yellowknife, Northwest Territories in northern Canada Third from the botton: http://www.islandnet...ac/diaryjul.htm Wiki: http://en.wikipedia....outbreaks#1970s That's about as weird as the F3 that struck the Portland metro area. How do you get a powerful tornado in Portland in April? Or in Yellowknife... ever? What kind of thunderstorms could do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Article below contains photo of funnel cloud in that area last July. http://www.nnsl.com/frames/newspapers/2010-07/jul28_10trn.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 That's about as weird as the F3 that struck the Portland metro area. How do you get a powerful tornado in Portland in April? Or in Yellowknife... ever? What kind of thunderstorms could do this? Cold-core/bdy intersections, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Cold-core/bdy intersections, etc. F3? I mean, that's clearly what it must've been (at least in the Portland example)... but F3 seems pretty strong for a cold-core tornado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 F3? I mean, that's clearly what it must've been (at least in the Portland example)... but F3 seems pretty strong for a cold-core tornado. It'd be near the upper-end of the cold-core spectrum, but it is not unprecedented... an IA outbreak in 1999 spawned several F4's in a (pseudo?) cold-core environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 F3? I mean, that's clearly what it must've been (at least in the Portland example)... but F3 seems pretty strong for a cold-core tornado. Grazulis didn't think it was an F3... he rated it as F2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Grazulis didn't think it was an F3... he rated it as F2. ? Not according to his website... http://www.tornadoproject.com/ Clark County Tornadoes APR 05, 1972 001 1250 6 300 F3 011 OCT 13, 1984 002 1200 0 0 F1 011 JUN 29, 1989 001 1530 0 1 F1 011 MAY 31, 1997 004 1645 0 0 F0 011 SEP 15, 1997 013 1840 0 0 F0 011 MAY 11, 2000 003 1535 0 0 F0 011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 ? Not according to his website... http://www.tornadoproject.com/ Clark County Tornadoes APR 05, 1972 001 1250 6 300 F3 011 OCT 13, 1984 002 1200 0 0 F1 011 JUN 29, 1989 001 1530 0 1 F1 011 MAY 31, 1997 004 1645 0 0 F0 011 SEP 15, 1997 013 1840 0 0 F0 011 MAY 11, 2000 003 1535 0 0 F0 011 Hmm.. there is a discrepency between his website and his book(s). I've checked all the places the tornado appears in Significant Tornadoes 1680-1991 and in every place (Oregon/Washington list, Killer Tornadoes list, and the narrative description), the tornado is listed as F2. Specifically in the narrative, he notes: "Over 100 homes had roof damage, but few lost any walls and no F3 damage was evident." Upon a little more research, I am pretty sure the website uses "official" data, not Grazulis' own ratings. I checked a couple of disputed F5 tornadoes (Vicksburg '53 and Broken Bow '82), and both are rated F5 on the website, while F4 by Grazulis himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Hmm.. there is a discrepency between his website and his book(s). I've checked all the places the tornado appears in Significant Tornadoes 1680-1991 and in every place (Oregon/Washington list, Killer Tornadoes list, and the narrative description), the tornado is listed as F2. Specifically in the narrative, he notes: "Over 100 homes had roof damage, but few lost any walls and no F3 damage was evident." Upon a little more research, I am pretty sure the website uses "official" data, not Grazulis' own ratings. I checked a couple of disputed F5 tornadoes (Vicksburg '53 and Broken Bow '82), and both are rated F5 on the website, while F4 by Grazulis himself. But he's wrong with his description. A bowling alley and school were destroyed... not simply "roof damage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Is a cold core tornado the same thing as a cold air funnel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Is a cold core tornado the same thing as a cold air funnel? I don't believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on_wx Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 That's about as weird as the F3 that struck the Portland metro area. How do you get a powerful tornado in Portland in April? Or in Yellowknife... ever? What kind of thunderstorms could do this? Without knowing any official conditions of that day, just looking up some Yellowknife stats and: July record high is 90.5F July avg high is 70F August record high is 87.6F August avg high is 64.8F I can't tell if everyone is under the idea that Yellowknife is cold year round or is this is actually a "cold air tornado". Severe thunderstorms strike the NWT at least once or twice per summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Without knowing any official conditions of that day, just looking up some Yellowknife stats and: July record high is 90.5F July avg high is 70F August record high is 87.6F August avg high is 64.8F I can't tell if everyone is under the idea that Yellowknife is cold year round or is this is actually a "cold air tornado". Severe thunderstorms strike the NWT at least once or twice per summer. Haha, Portland's record high in July and August is 107°F, and the avg high is about 80°F... but we rarely get severe thunderstorms. But I don't doubt that it could have been a supercell up there. Still strange to me that it's a decently powerful tornado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 But he's wrong with his description. A bowling alley and school were destroyed... not simply "roof damage". Sorry for taking this off topic-- just trying to get to the bottom of this. Do you have pictures of the bowling alley and school? ... because this independent source suggests only roof damage on the school: http://www.webcitation.org/5gkL6y7xM NBC Evening News for Thursday, Apr 06, 1972 Headline: Washington Tornado Abstract:(Studio) Washington Governor Dan Evans visits Vancouver, to see damage caused by tornado yesterday. Declares it a disaster area. 6 killed, 300 injured. REPORTER: John Chancellor (Vancouver, WA) Bowling alley smashed, roof blown from elementary school, 100 homes hit, discount store crushed in 1 1/2 mile tornado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Sorry for taking this off topic-- just trying to get to the bottom of this. Do you have pictures of the bowling alley and school? ... because this independent source suggests only roof damage on the school: http://www.webcitation.org/5gkL6y7xM NBC Evening News for Thursday, Apr 06, 1972 Headline: Washington Tornado Abstract:(Studio) Washington Governor Dan Evans visits Vancouver, to see damage caused by tornado yesterday. Declares it a disaster area. 6 killed, 300 injured. REPORTER: John Chancellor (Vancouver, WA) Bowling alley smashed, roof blown from elementary school, 100 homes hit, discount store crushed in 1 1/2 mile tornado. The second set of pictures: http://retro.columbian.com/history/Disasters/tornado.cfm Look at the right-hand side of the "after" school picture. Looks like more than just "roof damage" to me. And the descriptions seem to imply more than just roof damage, as well: Damage was estimated at over $3 million, leaving six dead, and about 300 hundred injured, which included about 70 school children from the demolished Peter S. Ogden Elementary School.Students from Fort Vancouver High School watched the elementary school collapse and without hesitation, they ran to help the kids. They lifted debris off the kids and did minor first aid. Granted, that could just be clever word-play. I'm certainly no expert in classifying tornadoes, but I would imagine there are isolated areas of F3 damage in there... like that "Waremart" grocery store in the picture, or the bowling alley (not pictured, as far as I can tell). EDIT: And though this is just anecdotal... As we watched the storm from inside, looking in the direction of Peter S. Ogden, we saw a storm hit the school. The roof literally lifted off the walls, the walls collapsed, and the roof slammed down on the demolished school. It was as if it happened in slow motion. We realized in an instant we had to do SOMETHING, not just stand there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 It's also interesting to note that there was golfball sized hail reported right before the tornado. And this story (among others) on that website I linked above seems to suggest more than just "roof damage"... My house was one of the homes completely destroyed by the tornado.My family had just moved to Vancouver from West Texas in March of 1972. My mother was thrilled to hear that the Northwest did not have tornados. We were native Texans, we had seen funnel clouds and had some near misses, but had only experienced light wind damage up to that point. It was a miracle that no one was injured. My mother had just started work that very day at a near by nursing home and my sister was across the street. Jamie watched from the neighbors window as our home was completely destroyed. There was nothing left of the house and our few surviving possessions were strewn about the neighborhood. Our house was the only empty one on the street and our house was the only one damaged! What a blessing. The only sad part, other than the loss of all our things, was that we had no insurance. Mom and dad had an appointment with the insurance man for later in the week. We were new to the neighborhood, but within minutes of the storm, neighbors came out of their homes with boxes and started to pack up what was left of our things. I would like to thank the people who came to our aid and to the land lord who found us a new home to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gymengineer Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 The second set of pictures: http://retro.columbi...ers/tornado.cfm Look at the right-hand side of the "after" school picture. Looks like more than just "roof damage" to me. And the descriptions seem to imply more than just roof damage, as well: Granted, that could just be clever word-play. I'm certainly no expert in classifying tornadoes, but I would imagine there are isolated areas of F3 damage in there... like that "Waremart" grocery store in the picture, or the bowling alley (not pictured, as far as I can tell). EDIT: And though this is just anecdotal... Thanks for the photos link. It's kind of hard to tell from the school photo what part of the school that is (e.g. gym could be much weaker structurally than other parts), but with the evidence you've collected elsewhere, you've made a good case. It is usually pretty hard to go against Grazulis, so I was interested in seeing the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Without knowing any official conditions of that day, just looking up some Yellowknife stats and: July record high is 90.5F July avg high is 70F August record high is 87.6F August avg high is 64.8F I can't tell if everyone is under the idea that Yellowknife is cold year round or is this is actually a "cold air tornado". Severe thunderstorms strike the NWT at least once or twice per summer. The tornado of July 30, 1978 was certainly not a "cold air" one. Though rare because of its latitude, the potential for severe weather is still there, given the favorable topography surrounding it (extensive plains which are actually at the northernmost extremity of North America's Great Plains), the potential for contrasting air mass interchange and instability and upper level shear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e pluribus unum Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hmm.. there is a discrepency between his website and his book(s). I've checked all the places the tornado appears in Significant Tornadoes 1680-1991 and in every place (Oregon/Washington list, Killer Tornadoes list, and the narrative description), the tornado is listed as F2. Specifically in the narrative, he notes: "Over 100 homes had roof damage, but few lost any walls and no F3 damage was evident." Upon a little more research, I am pretty sure the website uses "official" data, not Grazulis' own ratings. I checked a couple of disputed F5 tornadoes (Vicksburg '53 and Broken Bow '82), and both are rated F5 on the website, while F4 by Grazulis himself. There was definitely at least minimal F3 damage in the 1972 Vancouver tornado. A well built bowling alley and brick school were both completely flattened. Fujita himself inspected the damage and looked at the school to determine the rating. There was another F3 in eastern WA on April 5, 1972 that Grazulis also lists as an F2, and Grazulis fails to even mention in his book the December 1969 tornado in Kent, WA that was rated as an F3 or the June 1968 tornado in eastern OR that was likely an F3. I love Grazulis but his PNW tornado analysis seems a bit vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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