Guvna Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Did you drive through Southbridge Today Guv? Charlton street was open for traffic, lots of people walking through looking at the damage. I looked east driving up Charlton Street and you can see what appears to be the end of the damage. Crews, tree service and national guard are working around the clock clearing the debris and trees. Ill try and get the pics up later. Looks like the damage was much less severe but still lots of people homeless. I actually went down 169 on Thursday and was able to get to the Charlton/Southbridge line and that new road that heads up the hill to the West. I was impressed with the damage, until I saw things further West. Not to take things away from other communities, but Brimfield looked like a war zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamrivers Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I actually went down 169 on Thursday and was able to get to the Charlton/Southbridge line and that new road that heads up the hill to the West. I was impressed with the damage, until I saw things further West. Not to take things away from other communities, but Brimfield looked like a war zone. I think something that hasn't been played up much - anywhere - is the damage in Brimfield. Because the tornado went through the state forest for a decent chunk of time...but some of the damage in Brimfield is just amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavisStraight Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I think something that hasn't been played up much - anywhere - is the damage in Brimfield. Because the tornado went through the state forest for a decent chunk of time...but some of the damage in Brimfield is just amazing. I agree, it looks like it was strongest in Brimfield, thankfully it didnt hit the center of town, Brimfields more sparsely settled with homes more spread out than Monson. The local paper had some stories of some people in Brimfield whose homes were totally destroyed and they escaped injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold214 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Lucky, Brimfield wasn't holding one of their antique shows they hold a few times a year. That draws thousands of people. The last one was in the middle of May and the next one is in July I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamrivers Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I agree, it looks like it was strongest in Brimfield, thankfully it didnt hit the center of town, Brimfields more sparsely settled with homes more spread out than Monson. The local paper had some stories of some people in Brimfield whose homes were totally destroyed and they escaped injury. Yup...it was in the Springfield Republican today - a woman apparently got thrown 200 feet out of her house and ended up without a scratch. And yeah - if it hit the Route 20 corridor towards the center of town it would've been bad....fortunately it was south of that and there wasn't much in the path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamrivers Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Lucky, Brimfield wasn't holding one of their antique shows they hold a few times a year. That draws thousands of people. The last one was in the middle of May and the next one is in July I think. Agreed....when the antique shows are going on traffic is comparable to a major city in Brimfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjack123 Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Agreed....when the antique shows are going on traffic is comparable to a major city in Brimfield. I know the probability of something like this happening is virtually 0 but ask yourself this. Lets say 3 tornadoes on the same day each a mile-wide and a path length of 30 to 40 miles but each of different intensity. An EF3 with winds estimated(150-160mph) goes right through the middle of New York during rush hour traffic, then an EF4 with winds estimated (170-180mph)goes right through Chicago in the same fashion, and then EF5with winds estimated(200-220mph)through either Dallas or Houston. Wouldnt you think despite the different intenstities of these tornadoes wouldnt they all be equally devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I know the probability of something like this happening is virtually 0 but ask yourself this. Lets say 3 tornadoes on the same day each a mile-wide and a path length of 30 to 40 miles but each of different intensity. An EF3 with winds estimated(150-160mph) goes right through the middle of New York during rush hour traffic, then an EF4 with winds estimated (170-180mph)goes right through Chicago in the same fashion, and then EF5with winds estimated(200-220mph)through either Dallas or Houston. Wouldnt you think despite the different intenstities of these tornadoes wouldnt they all be equally devastating. No, the EF5 would kill a lot of people in the basements or in interior closets and such...an EF3 usually won't do that. Its much more survivable than an EF5...if you are just talking very generally..yes they are all totally devastating, but the EF3 wouldn't take nearly as many lives as the EF5 in a population center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k*** Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I know the probability of something like this happening is virtually 0 but ask yourself this. Lets say 3 tornadoes on the same day each a mile-wide and a path length of 30 to 40 miles but each of different intensity. An EF3 with winds estimated(150-160mph) goes right through the middle of New York during rush hour traffic, then an EF4 with winds estimated (170-180mph)goes right through Chicago in the same fashion, and then EF5with winds estimated(200-220mph)through either Dallas or Houston. Wouldnt you think despite the different intenstities of these tornadoes wouldnt they all be equally devastating. Don't stop...I'm almost there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Don't stop...I'm almost there You are sick man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 No, the EF5 would kill a lot of people in the basements or in interior closets and such...an EF3 usually won't do that. Its much more survivable than an EF5...if you are just talking very generally..yes they are all totally devastating, but the EF3 wouldn't take nearly as many lives as the EF5 in a population center. I see you have met blackjack123.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I see you have met blackjack123.... ??? Did I miss a joke from the midwest forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 ??? Did I miss a joke from the midwest forum? Yeah he questions every single tornado rating stating it should be something else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I agree, it looks like it was strongest in Brimfield, thankfully it didnt hit the center of town, Brimfields more sparsely settled with homes more spread out than Monson. The local paper had some stories of some people in Brimfield whose homes were totally destroyed and they escaped injury. Yeah Brimfield was where it was strongest strong Ef3/or more.. Did you see the pics I posted from around Holland Rd. I couldn't get to that trailer area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrials Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yeah Brimfield was where it was strongest strong Ef3/or more.. Did you see the pics I posted from around Holland Rd. I couldn't get to that trailer area LOL, or not. Turtle already explained the type of construction had more to do with the damage in Brimfield than anything else. Its an EF3 and every met to post here who was involved with the process or spoke to someone who was confirmed it with really little doubt its going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It does seem like the EF3 rating has been fairly thoroughly vetted, qualified, and explained by the several experts directly involved with the process, and that it's more or less settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It does seem like the EF3 rating has been fairly thoroughly vetted, qualified, and explained by the several experts directly involved with the process, and that it's more or less settled. It won't be an EF3 until Blizz says it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It does seem like the EF3 rating has been fairly thoroughly vetted, qualified, and explained by the several experts directly involved with the process, and that it's more or less settled. I dunno... I still think it was straight-line wind damage. And for those discussing Brimfield... it did get some national media coverage. I saw a couple shots of Brimfield, MA in USA TODAY and even our local Burlington paper up here had several shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It won't be an EF3 until Blizz says it is... Yep, I'm learning the SNE-forum rules-- how things work around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 LOL, or not. Turtle already explained the type of construction had more to do with the damage in Brimfield than anything else. Its an EF3 and every met to post here who was involved with the process or spoke to someone who was confirmed it with really little doubt its going to change. Why do you feel the need to butt in here?It's like you've made it your own personal agenda to make this your # 1 priority.. The funniest part is you're some 15 yr old kid who doesn't even live in SNE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 It does seem like the EF3 rating has been fairly thoroughly vetted, qualified, and explained by the several experts directly involved with the process, and that it's more or less settled. If it stays an Ef3 then an Ef3 it is ..in the books anyway. No denying that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Why do you feel the need to butt in here?It's like you've made it your own personal agenda to make this your # 1 priority.. The funniest part is you're some 15 yr old kid who doesn't even live in SNE. I often wonder how I would've been if I'd had Internet at fifteen. I'm sure I would've been banned from multiple forums-- or at the very least driven several adults over the edge. I was fifteen when Hurricane Gloria hit-- that in itself would have been enough to cause a teen-wx-weenie meltdown. Back on topic... I'm glad we've all accepted the solemn verdict of BOX. Y'all can go back to arguing about the Worcester tornado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavisStraight Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yeah Brimfield was where it was strongest strong Ef3/or more.. Did you see the pics I posted from around Holland Rd. I couldn't get to that trailer area Yeah I saw that, I travel that road every week, my sister in law lives about a mile from where that pic was, they had no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamrivers Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Why do you feel the need to butt in here?It's like you've made it your own personal agenda to make this your # 1 priority.. The funniest part is you're some 15 yr old kid who doesn't even live in SNE. Agreed. It is amazing seeing some of this posts in this forum after an event like this. I went to Monson and Brimfield with my own eyes, saw what I saw, and took pictures that didn't do the damage half the justice as you see in person. Others here have as well. It's a shame we can't have an intelligent debate about this tornado and its wrath without arguing like 15 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yeah, you'd probably pretty much need like a dual-pol CASA network of sorts, and even that probably wouldn't be quite enough. I attached the Correlation Coefficient data at the top... along with Reflectivity and Velocity for reference. In this case we are seeing a noticible drop due to debris. Normal precip is generally >.95 Weak signal can also cause a drop, but in this case the Reflectivity is nearly on par with its surroundings, but the correlation is much lower. Almost certainly the result of the oddly shaped scatterers. We use RhoHV to increase confidence in our tornado detection algorithms, and it's really good to get cases like this to prove that the theory matches up with the obs. We're not close to being able to differentiate between debris types yet, like you mention. Need a heck of a lot of cases with ground truth info to start doing that... (ie. at 9AM tornado forms over farm land and sucks up dirt, 9:10 moves over forest, 9:20 moves over city, etc.) What I'm not seeing unfortunately is very high reflectivity in the debris ball. At least partially (probably mostly) due to attenuation. It would have been great to have another radar in Springfield... The valley is poorly covered by Nexrad, and a single X-band doesn't quite cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I attached the Correlation Coefficient data at the top... along with Reflectivity and Velocity for reference. In this case we are seeing a noticible drop due to debris. Normal precip is generally >.95 Weak signal can also cause a drop, but in this case the Reflectivity is nearly on par with its surroundings, but the correlation is much lower. Almost certainly the result of the oddly shaped scatterers. We use RhoHV to increase confidence in our tornado detection algorithms, and it's really good to get cases like this to prove that the theory matches up with the obs. Yeah, that's also consistent with previous polarimetric obs of tornadoes at X-band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yeah, that's also consistent with previous polarimetric obs of tornadoes at X-band. I've done a CASA/KOUN comparison study on a supercell null case before and the ZDR and RhoHV matched up pretty well. I think maybe Feb. 10th of '09 I saw some polarimetric data from a tornado, with a clear debris sig, and I'm sure you've probably got some good stuff from Vortex, although I haven't seen it... Do you know if any of that data is accessible to the general public yet? Although it should probably go in the May 24th thread, I've attached 2 debris shots from the Chickasha tornado for comparison. At first the debris is dead center of the fairly strong tornado, and pretty weak. By that time the tornado had been on the ground for 10 minutes. The second picture it had been on the ground 20 minutes, and debris has started to materialize in the outer circulation, although we are also starting to attenuate. From my perspective these were less slam dunk results than I was hoping for, but perhaps this could start to get into the different types of debris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I think maybe Feb. 10th of '09 I saw some polarimetric data from a tornado, with a clear debris sig, and I'm sure you've probably got some good stuff from Vortex, although I haven't seen it... Do you know if any of that data is accessible to the general public yet? Yeah, I was referring to Bluestein et al. (2007). There's probably a bunch in the works with the four dual-polarization X-band radars that were out for V2, but none of those data are accessible to the public, they're all protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhoon Tip Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I've done a CASA/KOUN comparison study on a supercell null case before and the ZDR and RhoHV matched up pretty well. I think maybe Feb. 10th of '09 I saw some polarimetric data from a tornado, with a clear debris sig, and I'm sure you've probably got some good stuff from Vortex, although I haven't seen it... Do you know if any of that data is accessible to the general public yet? Although it should probably go in the May 24th thread, I've attached 2 debris shots from the Chickasha tornado for comparison. At first the debris is dead center of the fairly strong tornado, and pretty weak. By that time the tornado had been on the ground for 10 minutes. The second picture it had been on the ground 20 minutes, and debris has started to materialize in the outer circulation, although we are also starting to attenuate. From my perspective these were less slam dunk results than I was hoping for, but perhaps this could start to get into the different types of debris. I bet you took a satellite shot of Cape Cod and sent it through photoshop - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 Yeah, I was referring to Bluestein et al. (2007). There's probably a bunch in the works with the four dual-polarization X-band radars that were out for V2, but none of those data are accessible to the public, they're all protected. Cool thanks for the link. I'm embarrassed I didn't know it offhand, given that I talk to a couple of those guys practically daily. Was this May 12th '04 tornado how you got your name by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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