Ian Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Wow-- there are some really awesome moments late in the clip as they almost get to the periphery of the tornado circulation. I met Jeff in Mexico when I was chasing Hurricane Jimena. (He chases hurricanes now and then.) He's known as a pretty daring, aggressive sort of chaser, if I remember correctly. Like, he really goes for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtRosen Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Chopper footage is just.. horrible. If the houses were wiped clean off of their foundations, it would be an EF-5. I don't see that, but I do a lot of devastation and destruction. Most likely EF-4 imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJO812 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 This is awful. Hopefully Jomo is ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Here is the link where SGF will be posting survey information. http://www.crh.noaa.gov/sgf/?n=event_2011may22_summary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Rent Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 This is awful. Hopefully Jomo is ok. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Joplin-Mo-Tornado-Survivors/212837822082340?ref=mf Facebook page started by the newspaper to relay victim information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike2010 Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Is it just me or did this one look off the charts.....EF6 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojitodd Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Chopper footage is just.. horrible. If the houses were wiped clean off of their foundations, it would be an EF-5. I don't see that, but I do a lot of devastation and destruction. Most likely EF-4 imho. Well we shall see. It only takes one location-one house or structure-that qualifies as EF-5 damage to designate it as such, We just do not know yet, given how wide and long the path was. There are pictures out there of houses completely destroyed, but then again you don't know if the wreckage where the home used to be is from that home, or from another home entirely. They will just have to figure it out and do the surveys on site with the appropriate professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Is it just me or did this one look off the charts.....EF6 ? It's just you. No such thing as an EF6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterymix Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 iphone panarama of destruction http://photoblog.msn...ado-devastation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catoctin wx Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It's just you. No such thing as an EF6. just from watching the video's, it looked (to my untrained eye) comparable to the Tuscaloosa tornado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It's just you. No such thing as an EF6. No, there isn't. IIRC, the original Fujita scale was based on percentage of the speed of sound, or Mach number, so theoretically a F9, winds almost to the speed of sound, were possible. (Not saying physically possible, but the rating would exist.) F numbers were assessed based on damage, but the original idea would be an F-5 having winds approaching half the speed of sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Re: the EF5 thing... People sometimes seem quick to call an EF5 when they see a neighborhood flattened, but of course so much depends on the quality of the construction, etc. As most people here know, a house can get "swept away"-- leaving a bare foundation-- by something much less than an EF5 if it's not properly attached to the foundation. One other thing: when you see a wide, aerial shot of Moore, OK, or Greensburg, KS, you're not really looking at EF5 damage-- you're looking at EF3-EF4 damage, within which are a couple of isolated instances of EF5 damage. So, seeing these flattened neighborhoods in Joplin doesn't immediately say EF5 to me-- it says an obviously violent tornado went through, and it could have been an EF5. Let's see if they can find some specific evidence of it. It seems pretty clear that this was at least an EF4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 We can speculate, but I imagine one of the more specialized NWS survey teams will be in the area in the next few days, and then we'll have expert opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 We can speculate, but I imagine one of the more specialized NWS survey teams will be in the area in the next few days, and then we'll have expert opinion. Well of course. I would assume they're in there today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on_wx Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I was not following this right as it happened, and can someone verify if Joplin had just a tornado warning, or if a tornado emergency was issued? I went through the Central Forum thread and do not remember seeing any tornado emergency? It was warned some 15 minutes before it hit BULLETIN - EAS ACTIVATION REQUESTED TORNADO WARNING NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SPRINGFIELD MO 517 PM CDT SUN MAY 22 2011 THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN SPRINGFIELD HAS ISSUED A * TORNADO WARNING FOR... NORTHWESTERN NEWTON COUNTY IN SOUTHWEST MISSOURI... SOUTHEASTERN CHEROKEE COUNTY IN SOUTHEAST KANSAS... SOUTHWESTERN JASPER COUNTY IN SOUTHWEST MISSOURI... * UNTIL 600 PM CDT. * AT 514 PM CDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR INDICATED A TORNADO NEAR RIVERTON...OR 4 MILES NORTH OF BAXTER SPRINGS...MOVING NORTHEAST AT 40 MPH. * LOCATIONS IMPACTED INCLUDE BAXTER SPRINGS...CLIFF VILLAGE...DENNIS ACRES...DIAMOND...DUENWEG...DUQUESNE...FIDELITY...GALENA...IRON GATES...JOPLIN...LEAWOOD...LOWELL...REDINGS MILL...RIVERTON... SAGINAW...SHOAL CREEK DRIVE...SHOAL CREEK ESTATES...SHOAL CREEK ESTATE AND SILVER CREEK. INTERSTATE 44 BETWEEN MILE MARKERS 0 AND 13 WILL ALSO BE IMPACTED BY THIS TORNADO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catoctin wx Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Pretty amazing double rainbow that formed after the storm in Joplin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It was warned some 15 minutes before it hit JoMo, in one of his last posts, mentioned the sirens had gone off. Also, in the now-famous video from the convenience store, you can overhear people talking about a warning before the tornado hits the building. My impression was that they didn't actually see the funnel coming-- it was large and rather foggy-looking-- but were taking cover due to the warning. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. They had some warning for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Semi-related to the warnings, on the TDC show about the April outbreak in MS/AL/GA, a pastor at a small church in Mississippi said he paid no mind to the sirens because they had gone off several times the previous couple of days. If the science can improve to not only lengthen the lead time, but also reduce false positives, lives will be saved. What may appear the path of least regret, sounding the alarm on a weak signal, may ultimately do more harm than good. I have no idea if this was an issue in Joplin. And 15 minutes probably wouldn't be enough time to move all the sick and injured at the regional medical center from their rooms, which all presumably had windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 And 15 minutes probably wouldn't be enough time to move all the sick and injured at the regional medical center from their rooms, which all presumably had windows. No, but it's plenty of time for the average, able-bodied citizen to take cover, or for a teacher to bring children into the stairwells (or wherever they bring them). Maybe because I'm from earthquake country, where we get zero warning-- catastrophes happen in the blink of an eye, like a bomb going off-- fifteen minutes just seems like a generous amount of time for making decisions and taking action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Re: the EF5 thing... People sometimes seem quick to call an EF5 when they see a neighborhood flattened, but of course so much depends on the quality of the construction, etc. As most people here know, a house can get "swept away"-- leaving a bare foundation-- by something much less than an EF5 if it's not properly attached to the foundation. One other thing: when you see a wide, aerial shot of Moore, OK, or Greensburg, KS, you're not really looking at EF5 damage-- you're looking at EF3-EF4 damage, within which are a couple of isolated instances of EF5 damage. So, seeing these flattened neighborhoods in Joplin doesn't immediately say EF5 to me-- it says an obviously violent tornado went through, and it could have been an EF5. Let's see if they can find some specific evidence of it. It seems pretty clear that this was at least an EF4. too much need for instant gratification these days.. honestly it doesnt really matter if it was an ef4 or an ef5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 too much need for instant gratification these days.. honestly it doesnt really matter if it was an ef4 or an ef5. Well... I'm sure it matters a little to wx nerds. I know it matters to me. Like, I'm curious to know what they find and how they rate it. It was obviously a big event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Well... I'm sure it matters a little to wx nerds. I know it matters to me. Like, I'm curious to know what they find and how they rate it. It was obviously a big event. well, it's different when you're keeping a spreadsheet vs looking for a small splinter of your home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 well, it's different when you're keeping a spreadsheet vs looking for a small splinter of your home. For sure. But that's what we do here, I guess: we analyze the mechanics and the metrics behind events which are sometimes catastrophic to humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 For sure. But that's what we do here, I guess: we analyze the mechanics and the metrics behind events which are sometimes catastrophic to humans. True. I guess I'm saying I'm fine waiting rather than guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 True. I guess I'm saying I'm fine waiting rather than guessing. Yeah, I gotcha. I do hope JoMo posts soon. It's a bit nerve-wracking! I'm sure he's fine-- and probably posting here is his last priority right now-- if they even have Internet connectivity in the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Semi-related to the warnings, on the TDC show about the April outbreak in MS/AL/GA, a pastor at a small church in Mississippi said he paid no mind to the sirens because they had gone off several times the previous couple of days. If the science can improve to not only lengthen the lead time, but also reduce false positives, lives will be saved. What may appear the path of least regret, sounding the alarm on a weak signal, may ultimately do more harm than good. I have no idea if this was an issue in Joplin. And 15 minutes probably wouldn't be enough time to move all the sick and injured at the regional medical center from their rooms, which all presumably had windows. Often, "false alarms" aren't false at all. Just because your house (or church) didn't get hit by a tornado when you heard the tornado siren doesn't mean there wasn't a tornado or good reason for the warning. There is a concerted effort to avoid "sounding the alarm on a weak signal". "Weak signal" is a pretty ill-defined term, though. I would venture to guess (out of my a**) that the number of "false positives" is less than 50%, which means if you hear a tornado siren, there's probably an associated tornado. The issue may be that the public doesn't necessarily realize that a confirmed warning doesn't mean that everyone who heard the siren got hit by a tornado. Indeed, only a small part of the warning area usually does withstand a direct hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isohume Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Often, "false alarms" aren't false at all. Just because your house (or church) didn't get hit by a tornado when you heard the tornado siren doesn't mean there wasn't a tornado or good reason for the warning. There is a concerted effort to avoid "sounding the alarm on a weak signal". "Weak signal" is a pretty ill-defined term, though. I would venture to guess (out of my a**) that the number of "false positives" is less than 50%, which means if you hear a tornado siren, there's probably an associated tornado. The issue may be that the public doesn't necessarily realize that a confirmed warning doesn't mean that everyone who heard the siren got hit by a tornado. Indeed, only a small part of the warning area usually does withstand a direct hit. This is true. Often a TOR will be issued for a remote area or sometimes the tornado only briefly touches down in a more populace zone. These tornadoes are hard, if not impossible, to quantify. They still tally up the FAR tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUmetstud Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Often, "false alarms" aren't false at all. Just because your house (or church) didn't get hit by a tornado when you heard the tornado siren doesn't mean there wasn't a tornado or good reason for the warning. There is a concerted effort to avoid "sounding the alarm on a weak signal". "Weak signal" is a pretty ill-defined term, though. I would venture to guess (out of my a**) that the number of "false positives" is less than 50%, which means if you hear a tornado siren, there's probably an associated tornado. The issue may be that the public doesn't necessarily realize that a confirmed warning doesn't mean that everyone who heard the siren got hit by a tornado. Indeed, only a small part of the warning area usually does withstand a direct hit. I think the FAR for tornado warnings is higher than 50%. I thought I remember something like 80 or 90%, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallow Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think the FAR for tornado warnings is higher than 50%. I thought I remember something like 80 or 90%, but I could be wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a little higher than 50%, but I'd be surprised if it was that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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