Winter 2011-2012

[nzucker]

One of our posters right on the coast down there had 43" in '08-'09 so anyone right off the water got in the high 40s probably. March '09 hammered them pretty hard. To the west of GON...there was a small hole down there that may have failed to hit 40" but it wasn't the usual widespread SE CT screwzone that we normally see.

They did pretty well in the 12/19/08 event too. I'm not sure if where skier was got into a little local screw zone, but a lot of SE CT had 40-50" of snow.

OK, sounds about even for 08-09. I'm not the snowiest spot in Westchester by a long shot (though it may sound it from my posts) and I came up with a fairly conservative measurement of 45" seasonal total. Thus, the areas of Northern Westchester at 600-800' ASL must have had close to 50" especially since one of the main events of the winter, 12/19/08, definitely had a latitude gradient (<3" at JFK, 4" at Central Park, 8" here in the northern suburbs). There was such an amazing variance across the NYC metro region that winter IIRC...I had 45" which is decently above normal, Central Park was right at normal with 27", and then plenty of posters from LI South Shore and NJ came in below normal with only 20-25" on the season. Earthlight remembers that as a bad season as he changed over in 12/19/08 and then got dryslotted in the March Miller A. I remember it as quite a good winter especially considering the brutally cold January, and that it came on the heels of clunkers like 06-07 and 07-08.

It's interesting how SE CT echoes the totals of Suffolk County, yet Suffolk usually does somewhat better. December 2009 is a case in point as parts of Long Island got close to 30" Off the top of my head, there were 16" totals in Suffolk County in March 2009 and even going all the way back to April 1996, I believe both received in excess of a foot. How did they each do in April 1997, Will? I don't think anywhere on Long Island got more than 4-5" in that, but SE CT may have done better, being closer to the bombing low. How did they do in Jan and Feb 1978? From all reports, the snow got heavier as one went east with both of those storms, though in Feb 1978 it changed to rain at the Cape.

I don't think April 97 was a big event for SE CT, but April 96 sure was...over a foot fell in interior parts of New London County, and it stayed cold enough for snow all the way to the generally mild coast!

[weathafella]

lol... yeah but Denver is at over 5,000ft and only averages 57" of snow a year. He gets that in Moosup at 600ft. The Green Mountains at 4,000ft destroy anything out west at an equal 4,000ft. Foot for foot, the East averages a lot more snow. If Colorado had similar elevations as the east, they'd get less snow than the mid-Atlantic.

I don't think that's true. 4k in the Cascades which is probably about the same latitude probably has huge averages. You can't go by CO since VT is way north of them.

And before we diss Denver too much, who amongst us has climo SOME snow 10 of 12 months?

http://www.crh.noaa....denver_snowfall

[CoastalWx]

I don't think that's true. 4k in the Cascades which is probably about the same latitude probably has huge averages. You can't go by CO since VT is way north of them.

I think you're right. 4K east of Seattle gets crushed.

[tamarack]

I think you're right. 4K east of Seattle gets crushed.

My only experience with that was Thanksgiving week of 1997, when we drove into Rainier NF. Longmire, at 2,700+, had mixed precip that day with maybe 6" on the ground. We headed toward Paradise, but got stopped (no chains nor 4WD) at the 4,000' level, and there was about 4' on the gound there. Who knows how much there was at 5,500' where we had wanted to go.

It's always good for weenies to be at/near the best snow spot in the local area. Growing up in NNJ, I didn't care that the Catskills, or even the Poconos, were getting buried. My jealousy was reserved for Sussex Cty and the 1,000'+ hills a dozen miles to my west, where normal snow was 45" to my 35". The same was true even in a snowy place like Ft. Kent. For example, at Christmastime in 1979 we had 4-5" of very sloppy snow at our 550' elev home - streets needed no plowing, water dripping from branches. At a friend's home 6 miles west and at 1,100' or so, there was 12-14" snow with blowing and drifting. I was very happy when we moved to the back settlement at 1,000' and got the wet snow while downtown had slop, and 125" in winters that the Water Co. coop observer reported 95. If one is at the top end for snowfall in one's particular CWA, all seems well, whether or not it's big big snow in absolute terms. (With limits, of course. Getting 3" at Paris Mt while Greenville, SC got only 1" ten miles away wouldn't do much for me.)

[CoastalWx]

My only experience with that was Thanksgiving week of 1997, when we drove into Rainier NF. Longmire, at 2,700+, had mixed precip that day with maybe 6" on the ground. We headed toward Paradise, but got stopped (no chains nor 4WD) at the 4,000' level, and there was about 4' on the gound there. Who knows how much there was at 5,500' where we had wanted to go.

It's always good for weenies to be at/near the best snow spot in the local area. Growing up in NNJ, I didn't care that the Catskills, or even the Poconos, were getting buried. My jealousy was reserved for Sussex Cty and the 1,000'+ hills a dozen miles to my west, where normal snow was 45" to my 35". The same was true even in a snowy place like Ft. Kent. For example, at Christmastime in 1979 we had 4-5" of very sloppy snow at our 550' elev home - streets needed no plowing, water dripping from branches. At a friend's home 6 miles west and at 1,100' or so, there was 12-14" snow with blowing and drifting. I was very happy when we moved to the back settlement at 1,000' and got the wet snow while downtown had slop, and 125" in winters that the Water Co. coop observer reported 95. If one is at the top end for snowfall in one's particular CWA, all seems well, whether or not it's big big snow in absolute terms. (With limits, of course. Getting 3" at Paris Mt while Greenville, SC got only 1" ten miles away wouldn't do much for me.)

I felt that way when I lived in Marshfield on the s-shore. The snowfall average there is probably only a few off from BOS, but there were a few storms where BOS would get dumped on, and I flirted with rain. It was even worse when towns just 8 miles away got nearly 2' in the Dec 5-7 2003 storm, and I had about a foot which was 6" from the first part, and then 6" from the second part with a big mix of slop in the middle. But, such is life..lol.

[Typhoon Tip]

eh, i just inadvertently posted my thoughts on much of this in Kevin's incorrectly subtitled firecracker hot thread... oops.

[snowman21]

I think Westchester might have done better in 08-09. I measured a rough 45" here, do you have records for GON/New London/Old Lyme? I was in a decent local maximum that winter since I did well in both the original 12/19 storm (8", whereas much of the metro area mixed) and Dobbs Ferry got 10" with the 3/1 system although I was far away in South America watching the radar returns with jealousy...they might have gotten a bit more with the gravity wave, although I seem to remember it was Upton and Central LI that had more than SE CT in that weird Miller A system, maximum amounts around 16" there. I also know we did well in a couple SW flow events here, had around 6" on 1/28 as well as one other that hit Westchester with a moderate snowfall. We also got in a bit on the 2/3 Norlun that smoked PHL, not sure what that did in GON territory. Hopefully you can confirm Will, I'd certainly defer to you but I just seem to remember that winter being more favorably talked about by me than Andrew.

I can't believe there is anyone else on here besides me that keeps track of the weather in a small town like Old Lyme. What are the odds of that? Anyway, here is a breakout of the last few seasons (using proper measurement methods at 28 ft elevation and nearly 2 miles inland):

SEASON    NOV   DEC   JAN   FEB   MAR   APR   TOTAL
---------------------------------------------------
2010-11   0.4   6.2  39.5   2.9   1.8    T     50.8
2009-10   0.0  21.9   6.4  15.3   0.3   0.0    43.9
2008-09    T   13.8  14.8   3.4  11.2    T     43.2
2007-08   0.0   3.7   1.8   8.1   0.1   0.0    13.7
2006-07   0.0    T    0.1   5.7   3.9    T      9.7
2005-06   0.3   7.1   1.2   9.9   5.3   1.1    24.9
2004-05   2.1   6.4  22.6  18.4   9.9   0.0    59.4

[skierinvermont]

I can't believe there is anyone else on here besides me that keeps track of the weather in a small town like Old Lyme. What are the odds of that? Anyway, here is a breakout of the last few seasons (using proper measurement methods at 28 ft elevation and nearly 2 miles inland):

SEASON    NOV   DEC   JAN   FEB   MAR   APR   TOTAL
---------------------------------------------------
2010-11   0.4   6.2  39.5   2.9   1.8    T 	50.8
2009-10   0.0  21.9   6.4  15.3   0.3   0.0    43.9
2008-09    T   13.8  14.8   3.4  11.2    T 	43.2
2007-08   0.0   3.7   1.8   8.1   0.1   0.0    13.7
2006-07   0.0    T    0.1   5.7   3.9    T      9.7
2005-06   0.3   7.1   1.2   9.9   5.3   1.1    24.9
2004-05   2.1   6.4  22.6  18.4   9.9   0.0    59.4

That's old lyme? Awesome!

[skierinvermont]

Was 04-05 the winter the cape got a storm with 40" in spots? SE CT got screwed that storm.. 20"+ in New Haven and 20"+ in RI and the cape.. I had like 11" or something.

[ORH_wxman]

Was 04-05 the winter the cape got a storm with 40" in spots? SE CT got screwed that storm.. 20"+ in New Haven and 20"+ in RI and the cape.. I had like 11" or something.

Yes. A lot of CT actually got screwed in that. The dry slot made it nearly up to MA border but then got crushed ESE....so it never got RI or the Cape.

[nzucker]

Was 04-05 the winter the cape got a storm with 40" in spots? SE CT got screwed that storm.. 20"+ in New Haven and 20"+ in RI and the cape.. I had like 11" or something.

We didn't have that much more, probably 14" or so here in Westchester.

[ORH_wxman]

We didn't have that much more, probably 14" or so here in Westchester.

The storm had a pretty large dryslot that punched in from the SW and it only got swallowed up once far enough N&E. Basically E MA/RI/Cape avoided it which is why all the 20"+ totals (with 30-40" jackpots) were there. The rest of the region that had to deal with it got a general 10-18" of snow...still a fantastic storm for them, but not a HECS.

[weathafella]

I had a dream last night. It was early October and the warm pattern that had lasted from early July into September had broken. Temperatures were now well below normal and the pattern appeared sustainable for the foreseeable future. The sun was quiet and I was about to issue my winter forecast and it was very different from my earlier thoughts.

[CoastalWx]

I had a dream last night. It was early October and the warm pattern that had lasted from early July into September had broken. Temperatures were now well below normal and the pattern appeared sustainable for the foreseeable future. The sun was quiet and I was about to issue my winter forecast and it was very different from my earlier thoughts.

Dreams can come true......

[CoastalWx]

I remember watching that dryslot punch into se CT and sweating bullets a little. Once that storm exploded, it got pinched off but yeah it got me nervous for a second.

[weathafella]

Dreams can come true......

One can hope. The sun is sleeping and we should not try to wake him up....lol...

[snowman21]

That's old lyme? Awesome!

Yup. I noted your total this year was pretty close to mine. Within a couple of inches - which makes sense if you're in Lyme and my records are for the southern part of town.

[powderfreak]

I actually think Middlebury frustrated me more than the coastal plain here in NYC metro. It just sucks watching the mountains on the horizon get jammed while the Champlain Valley always has some downsloping problem. Your snowfall always seems so relative to those around you; in Westchester, I'm accustomed to doing better than most of the forecast area which is all urban/sea level...in Midd, it was the opposite. We had underperformed in so many storms until 1/3/2010 when BTV got the 35" and Middlebury 20". I remember how cautious we were on our meteorology radio show calling for big amounts on campus, knowing the history of the CPV...when I went 20" for the 2/24/10 event, Andrew thought I was being very aggressive, though we both were higher than the NWS. It ended up working out that time but I would hate making too many aggressive forecasts there as you're bound to bust sometime easily. I did have a good forecasting stretch, one of my few, saying that Central Park would see 20" in 2/25 Snowicane right after I called for 16-20" on air for the 2/24 event in Vermont. That was a fun winter though a nightmare for some.

This is very true and actually something I also experienced when I lived on King Street in Burlington... that's where the Lake Champlain water temp and lake level is measured at on the Burlington side (King St Ferry Dock) and I hated it because I was at like 175 feet above sea level. My buddy and I (also big into weather/skiing) were pretty sure that it was one of the lowest snowfall locations in the state of Vermont, lol. Even University of Vermont two miles away would get a lot more being inland and up at 300-400ft in elevation. The thing that kept me sane living in the CPV was that at least 5-days per week I was skiing/working at Stowe where it snows...well, a lot.

Got fed up with living there at the lake front, so we moved into the upslope region in the Winooski Valley. That was much nicer and our snowfall came up quite a bit. But that was still a very low elevation location (300ft) even though it snowed at least a dusting almost daily in Dec and Jan. It still dawned on me that I could get slightly more snow living in Stowe (just due to higher average elevation overall) and have significantly better snow retention on the east side of the Spine than on the west side. That's the big difference on the east side of the spine... when it snows, it sticks around. On the west side it seems to disappear quickly at the first sign of SSW winds or a torch.

Now that I'm here and only 5 minutes by car from the mountain, although this location proved to be "quite snowy", I have been considering moving 2-3 minutes up the road to Notchbrook at Stowe, which is at 1,000ft and literally at the base of the mountain. I could ski 3,000 vertical feet off the top of the chairlift all the way back to my apartment and the average snowfall would be like 150". Then, relatively speaking, I really couldn't move anywhere else to be in a better spot. It would be tough to leave a location like that, though... haha.

It is all relatively to your surroundings... if you average 80" of snow per year (like BTV) but places all around you are getting 100-150" (towns outside of BTV along the west slopes and interior vt) then its hard. I think this is the same reason why ORH in SNE is such a great snow spot. It may not get the most snow in SNE, but it really stands out relative to the other populated areas around it.

[Chrisrotary12]

Since we have no fun severe wx to talk about, is it winter yet?

[nzucker]

This is very true and actually something I also experienced when I lived on King Street in Burlington... that's where the Lake Champlain water temp and lake level is measured at on the Burlington side (King St Ferry Dock) and I hated it because I was at like 175 feet above sea level. My buddy and I (also big into weather/skiing) were pretty sure that it was one of the lowest snowfall locations in the state of Vermont, lol. Even University of Vermont two miles away would get a lot more being inland and up at 300-400ft in elevation. The thing that kept me sane living in the CPV was that at least 5-days per week I was skiing/working at Stowe where it snows...well, a lot.

Got fed up with living there at the lake front, so we moved into the upslope region in the Winooski Valley. That was much nicer and our snowfall came up quite a bit. But that was still a very low elevation location (300ft) even though it snowed at least a dusting almost daily in Dec and Jan. It still dawned on me that I could get slightly more snow living in Stowe (just due to higher average elevation overall) and have significantly better snow retention on the east side of the Spine than on the west side. That's the big difference on the east side of the spine... when it snows, it sticks around. On the west side it seems to disappear quickly at the first sign of SSW winds or a torch.

Now that I'm here and only 5 minutes by car from the mountain, although this location proved to be "quite snowy", I have been considering moving 2-3 minutes up the road to Notchbrook at Stowe, which is at 1,000ft and literally at the base of the mountain. I could ski 3,000 vertical feet off the top of the chairlift all the way back to my apartment and the average snowfall would be like 150". Then, relatively speaking, I really couldn't move anywhere else to be in a better spot. It would be tough to leave a location like that, though... haha.

It is all relatively to your surroundings... if you average 80" of snow per year (like BTV) but places all around you are getting 100-150" (towns outside of BTV along the west slopes and interior vt) then its hard. I think this is the same reason why ORH in SNE is such a great snow spot. It may not get the most snow in SNE, but it really stands out relative to the other populated areas around it.

All great points...amazing the gradient near the lake shore. It's actually somewhat similar here in Dobbs Ferry, with a noticeable difference in snowfall between downtown (50' ASL and right on the Hudson River) and where I live (350-400' hills away from the river, and away from any urbanization with a nature preserve behind the house). There's some pretty rapid changes in snowfall around here...I'm about 20 miles north of Central Park; they average 27"/year, whereas I am probably 38"/year. We've seen some impressive gradients in winters like 08-09 where people in the southern part of the Metro area like JFK and Central NJ thought it was a crappy winter, whereas I thought it was a solid, snowy winter.

And yes, there's no better place for CAD than the east spine of the Greens. You are both protected from maritime air which can be a problem in NH/ME, and protected from SSW winds funneling warm air up the Hudson Valley into the Champlain Valley, which is a major factor in the CPV climate. Middlebury is really in quite a crappy location...terrible downsloping from the Greens to the east, some downsloping on west winds from the Adirondack High Peaks, exposure to warm air from the south....The only favorable wind direction for big snow events in the Champlain Valley is due north or NNW which can cause convergence or lake enhancement. That was the case on 1/3/2010 when we had strong north winds and BTV got the 35". Despite all my complaining, Middlebury's actually had 5 consecutive winters with above average snowfall, I believe. 06-07 had the 25" on V-Day and another 12" on St. Patty's Day, 07-08 was a parade of SW flow events with over 80" on campus, 08-09 was similar but more front-ended with again over 80" and a 13" snowstorm on 1/28 as well as twin 10"+ events on 12/19 and 12/21, and 09-10 had the 20" storms on 1/3 and 2/24, while this past year had 24" at Middlebury in the early March system. Great streak of winters for VT, especially the valley which ironically, despite all my moaning, has done better relative to average than the Northern Greens.

[40/70 Benchmark]

I had a dream last night. It was early October and the warm pattern that had lasted from early July into September had broken. Temperatures were now well below normal and the pattern appeared sustainable for the foreseeable future. The sun was quiet and I was about to issue my winter forecast and it was very different from my earlier thoughts.

[40/70 Benchmark]

I felt that way when I lived in Marshfield on the s-shore. The snowfall average there is probably only a few off from BOS, but there were a few storms where BOS would get dumped on, and I flirted with rain. It was even worse when towns just 8 miles away got nearly 2' in the Dec 5-7 2003 storm, and I had about a foot which was 6" from the first part, and then 6" from the second part with a big mix of slop in the middle. But, such is life..lol.

Same, exact thing happened to me in that storm, but for opposite reasons. lol

[weathafella]

I'm haunted by the dream. My wife thinks maybe I was given a gift of insight at that moment. More likely though it's just a few buns added to long years of weenieism.

Lots ot tstorms this morning here in NJ....Big time boomers woke everyone up around 5AM and then again right before Noon. Is this a 2009 summer? I may have to move south in the winter...lol...

[A-L-E-X]

All great points...amazing the gradient near the lake shore. It's actually somewhat similar here in Dobbs Ferry, with a noticeable difference in snowfall between downtown (50' ASL and right on the Hudson River) and where I live (350-400' hills away from the river, and away from any urbanization with a nature preserve behind the house). There's some pretty rapid changes in snowfall around here...I'm about 20 miles north of Central Park; they average 27"/year, whereas I am probably 38"/year. We've seen some impressive gradients in winters like 08-09 where people in the southern part of the Metro area like JFK and Central NJ thought it was a crappy winter, whereas I thought it was a solid, snowy winter.

And yes, there's no better place for CAD than the east spine of the Greens. You are both protected from maritime air which can be a problem in NH/ME, and protected from SSW winds funneling warm air up the Hudson Valley into the Champlain Valley, which is a major factor in the CPV climate. Middlebury is really in quite a crappy location...terrible downsloping from the Greens to the east, some downsloping on west winds from the Adirondack High Peaks, exposure to warm air from the south....The only favorable wind direction for big snow events in the Champlain Valley is due north or NNW which can cause convergence or lake enhancement. That was the case on 1/3/2010 when we had strong north winds and BTV got the 35". Despite all my complaining, Middlebury's actually had 5 consecutive winters with above average snowfall, I believe. 06-07 had the 25" on V-Day and another 12" on St. Patty's Day, 07-08 was a parade of SW flow events with over 80" on campus, 08-09 was similar but more front-ended with again over 80" and a 13" snowstorm on 1/28 as well as twin 10"+ events on 12/19 and 12/21, and 09-10 had the 20" storms on 1/3 and 2/24, while this past year had 24" at Middlebury in the early March system. Great streak of winters for VT, especially the valley which ironically, despite all my moaning, has done better relative to average than the Northern Greens.

Ahem, 08-09 was a pretty good winter down here and we had more snow cover days than we did in 09-10, dont let the crappy JFK numbers fool you (including one event where we had snow plows out with 4.5 inches and they supposedly measured just half an inch lol)..... even so they measured an average winter there, around 23 inches, which in fact was closer to 27-28 inches here.

The reason I didnt think it was a great winter is because I live for the big centerpiece storm, the one you remember for ages, not just a bunch of middling events.

The last true gradient winter that separated our metro area was 05-06, and all of that because of December 2005 and February 2006.

[A-L-E-X]

Same, exact thing happened to me in that storm, but for opposite reasons. lol

Ugh me too, but for reasons different from either of you-- I got the big dry slot lol. Farmingdale had 20 inches, and while I was in the lead after part 1 with 8 inches, I only picked up 6 inches in the second part of the storm-- which was the part which was supposed to be worse lol-- and the part which had the Blizzard Warning issued for.

I guess the moral of the story is it snows better when the rain/snow line is close by.

[A-L-E-X]

The storm had a pretty large dryslot that punched in from the SW and it only got swallowed up once far enough N&E. Basically E MA/RI/Cape avoided it which is why all the 20"+ totals (with 30-40" jackpots) were there. The rest of the region that had to deal with it got a general 10-18" of snow...still a fantastic storm for them, but not a HECS.

It was ok here-- like 16-18 inches-- but nothing like what you guys had.

[ORH_wxman]

Ahem, 08-09 was a pretty good winter down here and we had more snow cover days than we did in 09-10, dont let the crappy JFK numbers fool you (including one event where we had snow plows out with 4.5 inches and they supposedly measured just half an inch lol)..... even so they measured an average winter there, around 23 inches, which in fact was closer to 27-28 inches here.

The reason I didnt think it was a great winter is because I live for the big centerpiece storm, the one you remember for ages, not just a bunch of middling events.

The last true gradient winter that separated our metro area was 05-06, and all of that because of December 2005 and February 2006.

You have to forgive NZucker...he often believes "Mt. Zucker" at a monster 380 foot elevation can accumulate snow at 1000% rate that Long Island can...he loves his climate compared to NYC (I would too if I were him, but probably not be so brazen about it). 380 feet here is something most ORH residents laugh at...and even Ray laughs at that because he is at 120 feet and averages 61-62" per year which is like 170% of Mt. Zucker annual snowfall...most SNEers would hang themselves if they got a Mt. Zucker average winter. Even the atrocious Logan Airport out in the harbor (surrounded by water) averages 44" per year which is 115% of Mt. Zucker avg snowfall.

[A-L-E-X]

You have to forgive NZucker...he often believes "Mt. Zucker" at a monster 380 foot elevation can accumulate snow at 1000% rate that Long Island can...he loves his climate compared to NYC (I would too if I were him, but probably not be so brazen about it). 380 feet here is something most ORH residents laugh at...and even Ray laughs at that because he is at 120 feet and averages 61-62" per year which is like 170% of Mt. Zucker annual snowfall...most SNEers would hang themselves if they got a Mt. Zucker average winter. Even the atrocious Logan Airport out in the harbor (surrounded by water) averages 44" per year which is 115% of Mt. Zucker avg snowfall.

lol I think Nate must have smoked something to feel like he was at a higher elevation tonight-- he also made a comment in another thread about "Big heat not happening as much as it used to." I don't know how anyone could possibly think that, even at 380 feet of elevation

[J.Spin]

The Green Mountains at 4,000ft destroy anything out west at an equal 4,000ft. Foot for foot, the East averages a lot more snow.

I don't think that's true. 4k in the Cascades which is probably about the same latitude probably has huge averages.

 

I was going to comment on this as well, because better wording would probably be “The Green Mountains at 4,000ft destroy anything out in the Rockies at an equal 4,000ft.” My comments below diverge a bit from specific discussion about winter ’11-’12, but since the elevation/snowfall topic came up in the thread, and it’s certainly snow-related, hopefully it will be useful information while we wait for actual snow to fall. In all our travels throughout the U.S. Rockies, or even the Canadian Rockies, I never saw any location in that 4,000’ elevation range that matched what the Greens receive in terms of snowfall. Heck, as I detailed in my recent post in the NNE thread, there are only a handful of ski resorts in the U.S. Rockies at any elevation that move into a league of snowfall that is well beyond what the Northern Greens receive. We lived at ~3,600’ in the Bitterroot of Montana, and I don’t know our exact annual snowfall there, but it was similar to or perhaps slightly less than our local NWS office about an hour north in Missoula, and they report an average of 41.4” for the 1893 through 2003 period. We didn’t think it would be that dramatic a change in annual snowfall moving to Montana, since we were used to just 70 to 80 inches annually in the Champlain Valley, but aside from just the decreased snowfall, the Montana climate amplified the difference. Even when we got snow in the Bitterroot, it would often disappear in a couple days with sun and warm temperatures. If we had a cold enough spell, the snow might stick around for a month, although it would likely not be very deep. For someone coming from Vermont it was a bit frustrating because there only seemed to be rare windows when there was enough snow to snowshoe, Nordic ski, sled, etc. in the valley, and even then the mountains wouldn’t accumulate substantial enough snowpack below ~6,000’ for local backcountry skiing. Fortunately, the Bitterroots go up to ~10,000’, and once you get up to the skiing in the higher elevations it’s great, but the lack of snow down in the lower elevations (like the 4,000’ elevation range) means big slogs to get to the skiing in the local peaks. In contrast, out here in the Northern Greens we’re only at ~500’ elevation, but in a typical winter we can literally strap our skins to our skis at the house and head up thousands of feet into the mountains for backcountry turns. Even when I lived in the Champlain Valley and visited the local mountains frequently to ski, I didn’t have a sense for just how much snowfall/snowpack there was in the valleys 20 miles to the east, but it was quite a dramatic change to go from the Bitterroot Valley of Montana to here along the spine of the Northern Green Mountains. There are certainly snowier valley locations than the Missoula/Bitterroot area at similar elevations in Montana (Butte gets 55.1” of snow at 5,550’, Great Falls gets 63.5“ at 3,600’, and Kalispell gets 64.7“ of snow at 2,950’), but compared to what falls here in the Greens at those elevations, none of the annual snowfall averages I’ve seen in Montana or indeed the rest of the Rockies at 4,000’ are very substantial.

Farther west of the Rockies though for some spots in the northern Coastal Ranges, it’s a different story. I don’t quite know how they can do it so well at such a relatively low elevation for the Western U.S., but Snoqualmie Pass at only about 3,000’ east of Seattle does indeed get a ton of snow. I was always amazed that when we’d drive a few hundred miles west of Montana on I-90, and get much closer to the warming influence of the Pacific, that they could have so much snow at even lower elevations. According to the data table for the last 60 seasons available at the WSDOT Snoqualmie site, the average annual snowfall at Snoqualmie Pass is 434.6”. I wouldn’t say that number absolutely blows away the snowfall numbers in the Northern Greens which are in the 300-400” range, but I suspect the amount of liquid in that snow is huge compared to what we get out here. Having skied in the snow there above Snoqualmie Pass, it can indeed be quite dense at times, especially the lower you go in elevation and the more marginal the temperatures become. It wasn’t too bad on our day at Alpental, but there’s a reason the snow is frequently referred to as “Cascade Concrete”. With the sometimes marginal temperatures down around 3,000’ though, it’s not surprising that the snowfall numbers go up quite a bit with elevation. I’m not sure what it is at 4,000’ in the Snoqualmie area, but at 4,000’ at Stevens Pass and at 4,300’ on Mt. Baker (very comparable elevations to the summit areas of the Greens), the annual snowfall totals are 477” and 647” respectively according to Tony Crocker’s website. The Stevens Pass number isn’t totally outrageous, but there’s no question that Mt. Baker even down at 4,300’ is in a totally different league of snowfall. I can’t think of any areas south of Washington State that have such snowfall down at those low elevations, but from there northward all along the coastal ranges to Alaska it seems to be the case. Shames Mountain in BC at 54ºN operates in the 2,300’ to 3,900’ elevation range and gets 480” of snowfall per season, Tony Crocker’s data indicates that at 61ºN, Alyeska Resort, AK reports 515” at 1,400’, and similarly in that 61ºN range, Valdez, AK averages ~326” at sea level, so there is most certainly more snowfall as one goes up in elevation.

And before we diss Denver too much, who amongst us has climo SOME snow 10 of 12 months?

http://www.crh.noaa....denver_snowfall

That’s an interesting question. Looking at the Mt. Mansfield climatology page, the data indicate that up there it’s 11 out of 12 months. Technically though, even Powderfreak doesn’t live up there, despite the fact that he’s probably up near the summit elevations for a lot of the year. They don’t seem to have too many of the populated, higher-elevation spots available on the Vermont Station Climatographies page, but looking through the data, I bet some of those spots are in there with 10 out of 12 months getting at least a trace of snow. They’d probably have it if they had full-time observations. It’s hard to imagine that the station at the base of Jay Peak (1,875’) has September with 0.1 inches, but nothing for June. I actually think that September is the harder month to get of those two, with the very toughest months not surprisingly being July and August.

[nzucker]

You have to forgive NZucker...he often believes "Mt. Zucker" at a monster 380 foot elevation can accumulate snow at 1000% rate that Long Island can...he loves his climate compared to NYC (I would too if I were him, but probably not be so brazen about it). 380 feet here is something most ORH residents laugh at...and even Ray laughs at that because he is at 120 feet and averages 61-62" per year which is like 170% of Mt. Zucker annual snowfall...most SNEers would hang themselves if they got a Mt. Zucker average winter. Even the atrocious Logan Airport out in the harbor (surrounded by water) averages 44" per year which is 115% of Mt. Zucker avg snowfall.

I was mostly talking about NJ in that post...areas like where Earthlight lives got really screwed in 08-09, changing to rain after 3-4" in the 12/19 storm and then getting dryslotted and finishing with 4" in the 3/1 storm. It wasn't as bad for Long Island as they saw a nice jackpot in the March Miller A, with up to 16" falling in western Suffolk County, so I wasn't really talking about JFK area. For folks in Central NJ, the 08-09 winter was a completely different one from what happened in Westchester, with the two big events delivering only 8" compared to my 18", and also not getting as much in the 1/28 SW flow event which dropped nearly 6" at my house and was only a minor snowfall down there. I figure Earthlight had 20-25" compared to the 45-50" that fell in Westchester, which is a significant difference.

As Scott has pointed out, it's all relative when talking about elevation. Having a home right near 425' hills is a pretty big deal in NYC metro where 99% of the population lives right at sea level; sure it doesn't make that much of a difference, but those inches add up over time, especially when you get a marginal event like the 2/25/10 Snowicane. There's quite a noticeable contrast in snowfall, and particularly snow cover, when you go from the urbanized downtown at 50' elevation on the Hudson River to the nature preserve behind my house, a thick beech-maple forest that averages near 400' elevation and has no buildings or roads whatsoever. For example, this past winter, the snowpack downtown was mostly around 18-20", whereas the well-protected wooded hollows in the nature preserve had close to 30" in the deepest areas. Elevation is all relative: I love our vacation home at 1500' in the Poconos and have gone there for many a snowstorm, but it doesn't seem so high up anymore after living at 4600' in St. Mary, MT last summer and routinely hiking above 10,000'. Montana doesn't seem that high when I reflect on my trip to Chile, where I had a view of the 20,000' peaks from Santiago and was hiking in the foothills of the Chilean Lakes District admiring perennially snow-capped mountains like El Tronador at 13,000'...

Also, most of the population of SNE doesn't live in places that average that much more than Dobbs Ferry. There's a ton of people along the I-95 corridor, which goes through some decidedly not snowy areas in SE CT and RI, quite a few of which average less than here. I would venture that all the way from the NY/CT border to the RI/MA border averages less than Dobbs Ferry, since you're right on the water at no elevation compared to 15-20 miles inland at 350-400' here at my place. Places like Hartford and Springfield are a bit snowier than here, but not by that much. If I moved to one of the higher spots in Westchester 15 miles north of here and 300' higher, I'd probably get as much as BDL. And, of course, we've been particularly lucky...I've averaged a shade over 60"/winter in the last three years, and just under 50" per season since 02-03 (my measurements also are conservative and some of these numbers come from downtown, so it's probably a bit more). Maybe it is just luck, or maybe the climate is changing; it's not hard to imagine how a colder regime with more blocking could cause coastal areas to see larger increases in average snowfall than the interior. Since 93-94, for example, my house in PA hasn't been doing that great compared to the big jump in Westchester's annual snowfall.

lol I think Nate must have smoked something to feel like he was at a higher elevation tonight-- he also made a comment in another thread about "Big heat not happening as much as it used to." I don't know how anyone could possibly think that, even at 380 feet of elevation

Are you serious? Look at NYC's numbers: the hottest temperature in Central Park was 106F, recorded all the way back in 1936. We haven't seen a reading of 104F since July 1977. The longest heat wave was in Aug/Sept 1953. Of the 20 longest heat waves in Central Park, only 7 have been since 1990, despite the climate being 1.5F warmer globally than it was when records began, and the increase in urban heat island. Furthermore, we've had several near-historic cool summers like 2009, 2004, and 2000...all in the last decade. Nationally, almost all the heat records for the Plains and Upper Midwest come from the 1930s Dust Bowl. Of the record high temperatures for the 50 states, only 8 have occurred since 1980, whereas 20 occurred between 1930-1936. Particularly notable is the 121F reading in Steele, ND from July 1936 and the 112F reading in Martinsburg, WV which also happened in July 1936.

I think my point stands.