OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The Fujita scale was a wind scale. Fujita linked up the Beaufort scale with the Mach scale. The F-scale actually went to F12 (Mach 1) but F6 was considered inconeivable (nor would resulting damage be recognizable from F5). Since wind could not be directly measured it was inferred based on damage. Even Fujita, before his death, realized his scale was not relevent to cheaply built suburban housing, hence the EF scale. Thank you for clearing up my error, I knew that didn't sound right as I was typing it. The fact remains that the wind speeds are determined from damage, and the damage that occurred in 1974 is what is being compared to this event. In fact one could argue that poorly built structures 36 years ago might have been rated lower with the current EF scale not higher. I also apologize if this discussion no longer belongs in this thread, it seems to have taken quite the tailspin since I left work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaoPos Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 How the heck would having something be recquire in your house that would keep you safe infringe upon your liberty? I'm all for liberty, but I'm not all for allowing people to be stupid. Do you have kids? Would you put your liberty to not have a safe room or underground shelter above their safety? Because its your home, and your right to do what you want to to, within reasonable law. there's a chance for eletrocution, should we make everyone wear grounding rods? there's a chance for fire, should we make everyone wear fire fighting equipment, own a fire eninge or pre req it to building code/ laws? There's a chance for a flood, do we make everyone in a flood prone area have a boat? People, get real. Danger is out there. in all shapes ,types and forms...there's always monday morning QB's that could do it better. Always that woulda coulda shoulda peoples out there. Building codes have to be within reason of new construction, not old. It's tough in RESIDENTIAL occupancies to require such specific codes. ALmost unconstitutional. HEy, propose it, and find the 5-10k for everyone within a tornado prone area. (almost the whole lower 4).. hell, even trailer parks should have safe rooms as well while we're giving suggestions safe rooms, tornado shelters, bomb shelters, 2012 shelter etc all are great... But you can t reuqire someone to have them by law. As far as evacuations. You HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?! maybe a 24 hr evac timeframe(like hurricanes ), which would completely be idiotic. How big is a warning area? how disruptive can it be? wanna talk about 1hr timeframes? go take a ride during rush hour through your local city and see how far you get outside that potential danger area. If you wanna play it safe, leave the day of. Expecting people to run to a community center is, well, darwinish. THE BEST PLAY OF SAFETY HERE IS EDUCATION AND PUBLIC AWARENESS!! THEY NEED TO KNOW IN ADVANCE WHAT EXACTLY THEY ARE DEALING WITH. It's mother nature, catastrophes of this nature have happened, are happening and will continue to happen. It's inevitable. We, as a populous, have done wonders in strides for early warnings, preparedness and saving lives. Look at the numbers. this is just one of them perfect storms. Sure, things could have been different. But that's in the pass. learn from the incident, plan ahead, and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAwxman Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Thank you for clearing up my error, I knew that didn't sound right as I was typing it. The fact remains that the wind speeds are determined from damage, and the damage that occurred in 1974 is what is being compared to this event. In fact one could argue that poorly built structures 36 years ago might have been rated lower with the current EF scale not higher. I also apologize if this discussion no longer belongs in this thread, it seems to have taken quite the tailspin since I left work. Ha! Still Relevant... We can quibble about the exact wind speed, but the poster criticizing me misses the main point. We know by all accounts that both Xenia and Guin were hit by a large and very powerful tornado. My point was that getting a setup conducive for tornadoes of that kind at the same time so far away from each other is hard to fathom. I think that point still stands regardless of what we knew about rating tornadoes back then and what we think we know now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SluggerWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Ha! Still Relevant... We can quibble about the exact wind speed, but the poster criticizing me misses the main point. We know by all accounts that both Xenia and Guin were hit by a large and very powerful tornado. My point was that getting a setup conducive for tornadoes of that kind at the same time so far away from each other is hard to fathom. I think that point still stands regardless of what we knew about rating tornadoes back then and what we think we know now. I didn't clearly state my point... so allow me to do so here. The weather behind this event cannot be compared to the weather from 1974. It's not a discussion that's relevant or adds value to the trauma and carnage that happened yesterday. If you want to say the weather system in 74' was more widespread - that's accurate. And, the energy behind my original response to you was meant to say 'bring this elsewhere.' Any post that tries to compare a historic event to the events that unfolded in the last three days isn't really giving the respect to what happened and what's still happening. Why bring that in here when your knowledge could clearly analyze, compare and dissect the events that happened THIS year - not 1974. Let's give this some time before we look back to comparing any part of this to 74.' More value in looking at what's going on today... It's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Ha! Still Relevant... We can quibble about the exact wind speed, but the poster criticizing me misses the main point. We know by all accounts that both Xenia and Guin were hit by a large and very powerful tornado. My point was that getting a setup conducive for tornadoes of that kind at the same time so far away from each other is hard to fathom. I think that point still stands regardless of what we knew about rating tornadoes back then and what we think we know now. Couldn't agree more, considering how rare an event they are in the first place having those ingredients come together covering that great a distance is awe inspiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Forbes was pretty telling on NBC. He described what he think could be spots of EF5 damage as he flew over Tuscaloosa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Forbes was pretty telling on NBC. He described what he think could be spots of EF5 damage as he flew over Tuscaloosa. Being a student of Fujita, I would say he's got a pretty sound base of knowledge on the subject. I remember his assessment while in Atlanta as he viewed damage in Yazoo City was excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Being a student of Fujita, I would say he's got a pretty sound base of knowledge on the subject. I remember his assessment while in Atlanta as he viewed damage in Yazoo City was excellent. Agree, I think that aerial video of the track through Tuscaloosa is just jaw-dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAwxman Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I didn't clearly state my point... so allow me to do so here. The weather behind this event cannot be compared to the weather from 1974. It's not a discussion that's relevant or adds value to the trauma and carnage that happened yesterday. If you want to say the weather system in 74' was more widespread - that's accurate. And, the energy behind my original response to you was meant to say 'bring this elsewhere.' Any post that tries to compare a historic event to the events that unfolded in the last three days isn't really giving the respect to what happened and what's still happening. Why bring that in here when your knowledge could clearly analyze, compare and dissect the events that happened THIS year - not 1974. Let's give this some time before we look back to comparing any part of this to 74.' More value in looking at what's going on today... It's just my opinion. You are free to your opinion and I would never say otherwise, but... This is a weather board and I and I am criticized for discussing things from a meteorological perspective? I'm not the one who brought up the 1974 stuff. I only commented on it. Sorry you are offended by weather talk on a weather board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Agree, I think that aerial video of the track through Tuscaloosa is just jaw-dropping. You know what struck me (besides the obvious devastation down the middle) were the strips of damage that most likely were associated with vorticies rotating around the main funnel. We know these were occurring from the various videos out there, and the damage seems to confirm that these were also very strong, to no ones surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upsloper Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 You know what struck me (besides the obvious devastation down the middle) were the strips of damage that most likely were associated with vorticies rotating around the main funnel. We know these were occurring from the various videos out there, and the damage seems to confirm that these were also very strong, to no ones surprise. If you watch you can see a barrel of a horizontal vortex form and make contact with the ground while smaller vortices are streaming into it at a perpendicular angle. The larger horizontal vortex acts like the wheel in a vacuum cleaner, shoveling very large debris into the main vortex/tornado. Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 CNN had one of their field reporters bring up a great point that adds to the complexity of the damage assessments. Some of these piles of rubble, did not originate from the nearest foundation. Some of these were just deposited there, and it takes time to figure out whether it came from there or somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebo Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 You know what struck me (besides the obvious devastation down the middle) were the strips of damage that most likely were associated with vorticies rotating around the main funnel. We know these were occurring from the various videos out there, and the damage seems to confirm that these were also very strong, to no ones surprise. Yeah as soon as the Cullman tornado showed that at around 3pm, I knew this wasn't just your normal outbreak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmagan Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I was out for the entire day yesterday. What would be the best radar and time period to look at when downloading archives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I was out for the entire day yesterday. What would be the best radar and time period to look at when downloading archives? For what specifically? The extreme part of the outbreak lasted well over 8 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmagan Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 For what specifically? The extreme part of the outbreak lasted well over 8 hours. The heart of the outbreak, I guess over Alabama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The heart of the outbreak, I guess over Alabama. The hours covering 21z/27 - 00z/28 will include the tornado that hit both Tuscaloosa and Birmingham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago Storm Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The heart of the outbreak, I guess over Alabama. KBMX from 1-9PM. KHTX, KGWX, KDGX and KFFC would be good sites to load too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 You know what struck me (besides the obvious devastation down the middle) were the strips of damage that most likely were associated with vorticies rotating around the main funnel. We know these were occurring from the various videos out there, and the damage seems to confirm that these were also very strong, to no ones surprise. I had a nightmare a couple of years back that I was in a super cell with a large tornado at the center with multiple smaller tentacle tornadoes orbiting it. The videos of this storm actually reminded me of that dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Yeah as soon as the Cullman tornado showed that at around 3pm, I knew this wasn't just your normal outbreak. Was the Cullman tornado warned after it had already touched down? I saw a news report where they said there was no warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flweathernerd Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Anyone see this yet? http://i.imgur.com/RIdpQ.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Was the Cullman tornado warned after it had already touched down? I saw a news report where they said there was no warning. I have no knowledge of whether it was or not, but I would lean towards warned because these signatures were just so apparent. I certainly hope that wasn't the case. Unfortunately, there will be a lot of "no warning" reports in the next couple of days despite the fact that there was a high risk, long lead PDS watch, and long lead warnings with aggressive wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokeEater Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Was the Cullman tornado warned after it had already touched down? I saw a news report where they said there was no warning. It was warned before it moved into the city, it was even warned before it was on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Was the Cullman tornado warned after it had already touched down? I saw a news report where they said there was no warning. It was warned well before it touched down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I have had some people on my Weather or Knot blog comment that saying in their home town of Taft, Tennessee, debris from the Hackelburg AL tornado actually fell in their town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I have had some people on my Weather or Knot blog comment that saying in their home town of Taft, Tennessee, debris from the Hackelburg AL tornado actually fell in their town. Totally believable, as that supercell tracked all the way over the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartyOn Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Anyone see this yet? http://i.imgur.com/RIdpQ.jpg Impressive. Land scaring is so well defined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettman320 Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Greg Forbes just stated pretty confidently that he would rate the Tuscaloosa tornado EF5 after survey the damage by helicopter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09-10 analogy Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT...CORRECTED NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MORRISTOWN TN 520 PM EDT THU APR 28 2011 .TIME... ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON .DATE... ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION..ST.. ...SOURCE. ..REMARKS.. 1056 PM TORNADO CAMP CREEK 36.09N 82.77W 04/27/2011 GREENE TN EMERGENCY MNGR *** 10 FATAL, 33 INJ *** EF2. NEAR CAMP CREEK WHICH CAUSED SIGNIFICANT STRUCTURAL DAMAGE AND SEVERAL FATALITIES AND NUMEROUS INJURIES. MAX WIND SPEED 115 MPH. It's not surprising that to rack up such a ghastly fatality count as yesterday, there has to be some very bad luck contributing along with violent, long-track, mile-wide tornadoes. How many EF2s cause double-digit deaths? Sure it's happened before but for every EF2 that causes multiple deaths, there must be hundreds (?) that don't even injure anyone. But wrong place at the right time, and all that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMo Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I have no knowledge of whether it was or not, but I would lean towards warned because these signatures were just so apparent. I certainly hope that wasn't the case. Unfortunately, there will be a lot of "no warning" reports in the next couple of days despite the fact that there was a high risk, long lead PDS watch, and long lead warnings with aggressive wording. Yeah, I just found the warning. I think it was on the CBS morning show (that's on at like 3-4 AM) that I saw the report and the reporter said "and they had no warning" BULLETIN – EAS ACTIVATION REQUESTED TORNADO WARNING NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE HUNTSVILLE AL 243 PM CDT WED APR 27 2011 THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN HUNTSVILLE HAS ISSUED A * TORNADO WARNING FOR… NORTHERN CULLMAN COUNTY IN NORTH CENTRAL ALABAMA… SOUTHEASTERN MORGAN COUNTY IN NORTH CENTRAL ALABAMA… * UNTIL 315 PM CDT * AT 238 PM CDT…NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR WAS TRACKING A TORNADO 7 MILES SOUTHWEST OF LOGAN…OR ABOUT 15 MILES SOUTHWEST OF CULLMAN…MOVING NORTHEAST AT 50 MPH. REPORTS OF DAMAGE HAVE BEEN REPORTED NEAR CRANE HILL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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