Historic Tornado Outbreak April 27, 2011

[mempho]

Actually... Good point. As per your point earlier, God knows how many people might be unaccounted for in some of these very rural areas-- and it looks like even in the population centers, they're finding bodies everywhere.

There's definitely a Katrina parallel here, in the sense that we're seeing a contemporary death toll that seems strangely anachronistic-- like it's from another era.

WAFF in Huntsville is reporting 147 in their corner of NW Alabama which doesn't include Birmingham or Tuscaloosa. These are apparently not all official numbers. Considering all factors, I would not rule out some of the larger numbers. I don't think it will happen, but I wouldn't be just utterly shocked if the adding machines got into Katrina-like figures. We're talking about some densely-populated areas that got hit with what amounts to a death sentence.

[AtticaFanatica]

WAFF in Huntsville is reporting 147 in their corner of NW Alabama which doesn't include Birmingham or Tuscaloosa. These are apparently not all official numbers. Considering all factors, I would not rule out some of the larger numbers. I don't think it will happen, but I wouldn't be just utterly shocked if the adding machines got into Katrina-like figures. We're talking about some densely-populated areas that got hit with what amounts to a death sentence.

I know you're swimming in a conjecture pool today, but let's wait for the numbers before we describe it that way.

[tacoman25]

This is basically what I was trying to say. I wasn't actually saying the on-air personalities did a bad job, they did a tremendous job. I'm saying the impression that they gave was that if people 'hunkered down' they would survive. Spann and whoever that CBS guy was both knew it was a violent tornado long before it hit the Birmingham area.

Maybe there needs to be more education to the public about what kind of damage a violent tornado can do and that simply getting in a hall closet will probably not protect you during a violent tornado so you should look for underground shelter or get out of its way.

[SpartyOn]

no thanks...if i don't want to build a safe room or shelter in my house then i shouldn't have too....

I could debate building code practices all day until Im blue in the face. But on a day like yesterday safe rooms could have saved many more lives.

[Hoosier]

I could debate building code practices all day until Im blue in the face. But on a day like yesterday safe rooms could have saved many more lives.

Obviously, but the question is whether one should be forced to have one. That starts to bring a political element into the discussion though.

[Ed Lizard]

Obviously, but the question is whether one should be forced to have one. That starts to bring a political element into the discussion though.

Does anyone have a real problem with Los Angeles or Miami having minimum requirements for new building construction in earthquake or hurricane prone areas?

[Ed Lizard]

I know you're swimming in a conjecture pool today, but let's wait for the numbers before we describe it that way.

Going in the other direction, I can remember right after Katrina and the floods reports suggesting the death toll would pass Galveston. I would not be surprised to hear death tolls in excess of the actual death toll, even befor ethe actual victims are found and recovered.

[AtticaFanatica]

Does anyone have a real problem with Los Angeles or Miami having minimum requirements for new building construction in earthquake or hurricane prone areas?

Probably, but there's lots of stupid people so, you know...

[SpartyOn]

Obviously, but the question is whether one should be forced to have one. That starts to bring a political element into the discussion though.

I understand completely. Its not like typical building codes like : Current overload protection (breaker box) that prevents your house from catching fire then could cause your neighbors home to ignite. Safe rooms have no effect on the neighborhood as a whole unlike other safety codes. So yea it would be tuff to sell such a building code.

Ill tell you what though. If i lived in the plains I would for sure have a Safe Room or Shelter regardless of local codes.

[Ian]

Does anyone have a real problem with Los Angeles or Miami having minimum requirements for new building construction in earthquake or hurricane prone areas?

exactly.. it's kind of a silly idea that you'd be up in arms that you were "forced" to have a ~3,000 additional expense on a new home that you'd barely even notice in the course of financing options etc. though arguably your odds of taking a direct hit from a tornado even in tornado zones is less than taking damage from a hurricane or earthquake in places that have them.

[HurricaneJosh]

WAFF in Huntsville is reporting 147 in their corner of NW Alabama which doesn't include Birmingham or Tuscaloosa. These are apparently not all official numbers. Considering all factors, I would not rule out some of the larger numbers. I don't think it will happen, but I wouldn't be just utterly shocked if the adding machines got into Katrina-like figures. We're talking about some densely-populated areas that got hit with what amounts to a death sentence.

I think the numbers will certainly grow. But just to clarify my own position, I'm not saying I personally think the death toll will rival Katrina's-- simply that, like Katrina, this event seems to have caused a much higher death toll than we've seen in a long while.

[Ian]

I think the numbers will certainly grow. But just to clarify my own position, I'm not saying I personally think the death toll will rival Katrina's-- simply that, like Katrina, this event seems to have caused a much higher death toll than we've seen in a long while.

one thing that's pretty common in these high casualty events is there are some who think the toll will end up 10x higher than it does.

[Witness Protection Program]

first air shots from Tucscaloosa

look at thr 1 min mark..I count 12 muilti unit apartment complexes completely destroyed...perhaps student housing or the housing project

http://www.abc3340.c...&autoStart=true

3:28 interesting too.... large slabs only perhaps a commerical area

Go to Bing Maps' 'Bird's Eye View' to see excellent 'before' views of what was damaged/destroyed. Some reference points:

Video starts facing east at 35th and Exchange Ave (road next to RR tracks)

:37 - Road crossing the freeway is 31st st

1:00 - Roseland Courts public housing, looks to be about 40% destroyed.

2:30 - 15th St and 5th Ave

2:50 - McFarland Blvd just south of 13th St, the Hobby Lobby strip center where a lot of the evening video was shot of people walking up and down McFarland past the rubble.

Offscreen to the right of this video but easily seen in Bird's Eye View is the mall parking lot where that kid got the dramatic tornado vid:

SE corner of McFarland and 15th, he starts facing west across McFarland, ends facing north across 15th, then heading east.

3:30 - Slabs were industrial buildings between the RR tracks south of University and Kicker.

3:50 - Church at University and 22nd.

4:33 - 4th St between 30th and 31st Ave.

5:05 - Trailer park west of Crescent Ln at 1st.

5:55 - Elm Dr at 44th Ct.

[F-5]

I'll put in my two cents here.....I live in the southern part of Birmingham and I am weather literate. I knew far in advance that any tornado that formed yesterday had the potential to do incredible damage. Even though I live in a well-built brick home with a basement, my policy on days like yesterday is to get the hell out of dodge if a strong circulation is coming my way and maintains a good radar sig for several scans. Right after 7pm, after the monster had roared through town, a tornado was spotted on the ground about 30 miles from me and heading my way. My house was in the center of the warning cone. A tornado emergency had been issued by BMX. I got the kids in the car and went 3-4 miles north on Hwy 280 towards Birmingham to achieve what I knew was a safe distance. Hwy 280 is the busiest road in the state and it was virtually deserted. We drove at a safe speed, obeyed traffic laws and had no problem getting to safe ground.

I would do it again every time.

However, if James Spann had told people to do exactly what I knew to do, the roads would have clogged immediately and thousands of people would have been exposed to grave danger. We need to separate what is common sense to weather savvy folks from what would cause the general public to panic.

[tacoman25]

one thing that's pretty common in these high casualty events is there are some who think the toll will end up 10x higher than it does.

True...but this type of event is anything but common.

[eyes2theskies]

I'll put in my two cents here.....I live in the southern part of Birmingham and I am weather literate. I knew far in advance that any tornado that formed yesterday had the potential to do incredible damage. Even though I live in a well-built brick home with a basement, my policy on days like yesterday is to get the hell out of dodge if a strong circulation is coming my way and maintains a good radar sig for several scans. Right after 7pm, after the monster had roared through town, a tornado was spotted on the ground about 30 miles from me and heading my way. My house was in the center of the warning cone. A tornado emergency had been issued by BMX. I got the kids in the car and went 3-4 miles north on Hwy 280 towards Birmingham to achieve what I knew was a safe distance. Hwy 280 is the busiest road in the state and it was virtually deserted. We drove at a safe speed, obeyed traffic laws and had no problem getting to safe ground.

I would do it again every time.

However, if James Spann had told people to do exactly what I knew to do, the roads would have clogged immediately and thousands of people would have been exposed to grave danger. We need to separate what is common sense to weather savvy folks from what would cause the general public to panic.

Well put. I would have done the same as you, and I have in the past.

[Macintosh]

I'll put in my two cents here.....I live in the southern part of Birmingham and I am weather literate. I knew far in advance that any tornado that formed yesterday had the potential to do incredible damage. Even though I live in a well-built brick home with a basement, my policy on days like yesterday is to get the hell out of dodge if a strong circulation is coming my way and maintains a good radar sig for several scans. Right after 7pm, after the monster had roared through town, a tornado was spotted on the ground about 30 miles from me and heading my way. My house was in the center of the warning cone. A tornado emergency had been issued by BMX. I got the kids in the car and went 3-4 miles north on Hwy 280 towards Birmingham to achieve what I knew was a safe distance. Hwy 280 is the busiest road in the state and it was virtually deserted. We drove at a safe speed, obeyed traffic laws and had no problem getting to safe ground.

I would do it again every time.

However, if James Spann had told people to do exactly what I knew to do, the roads would have clogged immediately and thousands of people would have been exposed to grave danger. We need to separate what is common sense to weather savvy folks from what would cause the general public to panic.

Question. What made you drive north? Given that the cell you mentioned was moving northeast (if memory serves), shouldn't one be driving south or southeast?

[tacoman25]

I'll put in my two cents here.....I live in the southern part of Birmingham and I am weather literate. I knew far in advance that any tornado that formed yesterday had the potential to do incredible damage. Even though I live in a well-built brick home with a basement, my policy on days like yesterday is to get the hell out of dodge if a strong circulation is coming my way and maintains a good radar sig for several scans. Right after 7pm, after the monster had roared through town, a tornado was spotted on the ground about 30 miles from me and heading my way. My house was in the center of the warning cone. A tornado emergency had been issued by BMX. I got the kids in the car and went 3-4 miles north on Hwy 280 towards Birmingham to achieve what I knew was a safe distance. Hwy 280 is the busiest road in the state and it was virtually deserted. We drove at a safe speed, obeyed traffic laws and had no problem getting to safe ground.

I would do it again every time.

However, if James Spann had told people to do exactly what I knew to do, the roads would have clogged immediately and thousands of people would have been exposed to grave danger. We need to separate what is common sense to weather savvy folks from what would cause the general public to panic.

Right, and this goes along with what I was telling JoMo earlier: people are free to make their own choices. If they are knowledgable enough about the weather to safely flee, they can do just that like you did. Or even if they don't know what the hell they are doing, they can try to get out of the way. But if you tell the general public to do that, it's a recipe for much greater disaster.

[David Reimer]

Perhaps instead of cluttering a thread that will undoubtedly go in the archive with an off-topic discussion on sheltering practices, it would be better to just create a separate thread for that?

[AtticaFanatica]

Do we need a new thread for everything?

[Ian]

True...but this type of event is anything but common.

not relevant. people thought there were 20-30k dead after Katrina. I remember stories of bodies filling beaches etc.. none of it ended up true. the japan quake people were saying "oh, it could be 100k dead". it's possible there are still more big caches of bodies to find but even as widespread as the damage is, it's not as widespread as a giant earthquake or something. it won't take as long to come to a tally other than people who are really badly injured dying from their injuries etc.

[F-5]

Question. What made you drive north? Given that the cell you mentioned was moving northeast (if memory serves), shouldn't one be driving south or southeast?

If the circulation got stronger there was a chance of a southward jog (right turn). Northwest is technically the direction I headed if you look at a google map of highway 280. Not a single cell all day had taken a due north jog, but even if it had, chances are very high it would have been cycling at that point and the tornado threat greatly diminished.

[AtticaFanatica]

I'll put in my two cents here.....I live in the southern part of Birmingham and I am weather literate. I knew far in advance that any tornado that formed yesterday had the potential to do incredible damage. Even though I live in a well-built brick home with a basement, my policy on days like yesterday is to get the hell out of dodge if a strong circulation is coming my way and maintains a good radar sig for several scans. Right after 7pm, after the monster had roared through town, a tornado was spotted on the ground about 30 miles from me and heading my way. My house was in the center of the warning cone. A tornado emergency had been issued by BMX. I got the kids in the car and went 3-4 miles north on Hwy 280 towards Birmingham to achieve what I knew was a safe distance. Hwy 280 is the busiest road in the state and it was virtually deserted. We drove at a safe speed, obeyed traffic laws and had no problem getting to safe ground.

I would do it again every time.

However, if James Spann had told people to do exactly what I knew to do, the roads would have clogged immediately and thousands of people would have been exposed to grave danger. We need to separate what is common sense to weather savvy folks from what would cause the general public to panic.

I tried to say this and it took me like 10 posts, well stated.

[tacoman25]

not relevant. people thought there were 20-30k dead after Katrina. I remember stories of bodies filling beaches etc.. none of it ended up true. the japan quake people were saying "oh, it could be 100k dead". it's possible there are still more big caches of bodies to find but even as widespread as the damage is, it's not as widespread as a giant earthquake or something. it won't take as long to come to a tally other than people who are really badly injured dying from their injuries etc.

I said "True", meaning I agree with your basic premise. I was just pointing out that this type of scenario is so rare, it's hard to make relevant comparisons.

[Macintosh]

As F-5 said, there's a difference in response depending on how much information you have and your existing knowledge. One of my biggest complaints about weather coverage on TV and society in general is the herd mentality. We are programmed to think that all instructions must come from a central authority and that authority is not to be questioned. For our own safety we must do as we are told. While this arrangement might work pretty well on average, it's not a good idea to follow the voice of the telescreen blindly.

Here's the deal. We all have sovereignty as individuals. We should all make our own decisions. If I had a debris ball headed straight for me with 15 minutes warning, I'd probably consider leaving town. But even for experienced storm watchers with access to high res radar data, there is uncertainty in the track and position of tornadoes. That, coupled with the fact that you are leaving all shelter behind when you get in a car, makes the decision more difficult. I lean heavily towards hunker-in-the-bunker rather than warp-nine-just-in-time.

[tacoman25]

Do we need a new thread for everything?

Yes. That way people only have to read exactly what they want to read, all the time.

[Ian]

I said "True", meaning I agree with your basic premise. I was just pointing out that this type of scenario is so rare, it's hard to make relevant comparisons.

It is rare but seemingly less rare these days and likely less rare going forward as population density increases. It doesn't really matter--it's terrible whether it's 200 or 1000. Was mostly just pointing out these abnormally high casualty incidents often follow a similar pattern of speculation.

[janetjanet998]

I clearly stated it was for new builds, obviously retrofits impose an undue burden.

I don't think it is an undue infringement on civil liberties to have safe rooms or shelters as part of the new build code.

because its my freaking house that's why. I own it and the ground..I don't need you or the government telling me if a need a freaking safe room in my own house becuase of some freak event. In you are talking about an apartment that you own and rent to other people..then perhaps

..earthqaukes are common in CA and affect a large area...

getting hit by an EF4+ tornado is very very low

This kind of stuff really irritates me...

this is all I am going to say in this thread about this matter....unless we have a spin off thread for it

[Witness Protection Program]

A saferoom clearly did its job, the home is destroyed, but the family is safe. Every new build in Tornado Alley and Dixie Alley should be mandated as part of the permit with a safe room or underground shelter.

Adding $5-13,000 to the cost of every new home (probably more once it becomes gov't mandated), pricing a whole lot more people and families out of these houses and stuck in mobile homes and flimsy apartments. Brilliant way to increase deaths in the 99% of tornadoes that aren't EF5.

How about we let each person make their own decisions.

[Macintosh]

A saferoom clearly did its job, the home is destroyed, but the family is safe. Every new build in Tornado Alley and Dixie Alley should be mandated as part of the permit with a safe room or underground shelter.

My liberty to make my own decisions is worth more than my life, thank you.