2010-2011 SNE snowfall map

[FPizz]

your 09-10 map has me in it, so 10-11 I got 60.5 inches. I'm right by Rutgers.

[A-L-E-X]

I don't think Brooklyn etc had that much snow. I don't see how you can just "throw out" locations (especially when they're the most legitimate and official stations, whatever your opinion on their measurements may be) when indeed, they do seem to accurately reflect areas around them most of the time. Did JFK do poorly in many storms? Probably. But that's because it's practically in the ocean, and LGA has the same situation.

I feel that for the most part, NYC, JFK, and LGA are 95% accurate; only in one event did I have a discrepancy with the Central Park station, in early December '08, and it was still relatively small.

You can easily throw out locations-- JFK measures from the top of a roof and we have it on good authority that they removed the FAA observer for at least one storm -- for which there was no measurement recorded.

[A-L-E-X]

I don't know, JFK is pretty atrocious at measuring snow it seems from several events. It's beyond their location being on the water because there is no way they should consistently measure so much less than I do here on the southern side of the Raritan Bay

I agree, I think JConsor went through some measurement tallies and it was quite clear their measurement was flawed, and they even used the 10:1 ratio for liquid equivalent, so there wasn't an exact precip total obtained.

[ORH_wxman]

I agree, I think JConsor went through some measurement tallies and it was quite clear their measurement was flawed, and they even used the 10:1 ratio for liquid equivalent, so there wasn't an exact precip total obtained.

I'm pretty sure JFK measures on the roof ever since 9/11.

[A-L-E-X]

The person that measures the snow at JFK needs to go back to measuring school.

They need to stop measuring snow from the top of a roof

I'll always remember that storm where they recorded like 0.5" and we had 4" or so and the snowplows were out LOL. Snowplows dont go out unless there is over 2" of snow on the roads.

[A-L-E-X]

I'm pretty sure JFK measures on the roof ever since 9/11.

Will, is there a connection? I never knew that was because of 9/11!

The big problem with measuring from a roof top-- besides the obvious one of blow off, is the fact that it's much harder to accumulate snow on the roof of a heated building. It's probably why they also didn't have a long duration snow cover there, while I measured 52 straight days of 1" snowcover here. JM, who is on Long Beach, measured a similar streak and also recorded around 60" of snow.

The two biggest discrepancies this year were with the late Jan storm where they recorded like 10" when it was more like 16" (we had 4 hours of 3-4 inches of snow per hour) and JFK even recorded near 0 visibility in heavy snow for that time period. The other one was where they removed the FAA contractor and no measurement was recorded.

Meanwhile there was a story in the paper the other day that these "professional" weather observers sometimes don't even go outside to measure the snow because it's "too cold" and they just estimate by what they see from the window LOL.

Do we really want to be calling the FAA "professional" anything-- especially in light of the recent FAA scandal with air traffic controllers sleeping on the job and the FAA chief resigning? If they can't get the important stuff right......

[MJO812]

I don't think Brooklyn etc had that much snow. I don't see how you can just "throw out" locations (especially when they're the most legitimate and official stations, whatever your opinion on their measurements may be) when indeed, they do seem to accurately reflect areas around them most of the time. Did JFK do poorly in many storms? Probably. But that's because it's practically in the ocean, and LGA has the same situation.

I feel that for the most part, NYC, JFK, and LGA are 95% accurate; only in one event did I have a discrepancy with the Central Park station, in early December '08, and it was still relatively small.

Brooklyn did get over 60 inches of snow. Ben,Yehuda and I had close to the same amounts. We all ended up with over 60 inches. Brooklyn received more snow than anyone else in the metro area from the Boxing Day storm. Brooklyn received 25 inches from that storm. We got about 9 inches from the Jan 11 storm and 18 inches from the Jan 26 storm. There were several small events in between.

[A-L-E-X]

Brooklyn did get over 60 inches of snow. Ben,Yehuda and I had close to the same amounts. We all ended up with over 60 inches. Brooklyn received more snow than anyone else in the metro area from the Boxing Day storm. Brooklyn received 25 inches from that storm. We got about 9 inches from the Jan 11 storm and 18 inches from the Jan 26 storm. There were several small events in between.

Yeah, and JM, Ace, Noreaster and I also measured 60" or just over. Even Noreaster (who is extremely conservative with his measurements) was shocked with their Jan 26-27 total. The point is, if you look at the radar you know they messed it up. And they don't have a good track record at all. JConsor put out some interesting numbers showing the discrepancies involved.... it doesn't take a genius to see that the numbers were off.

Ant, you can see the issue when you look at JFK's snowcover data, they were reporting 0 inches for several days when we still had 6+ inches on the ground. So it might not be bad measuring as much as a really poor measuring location.

[nzucker]

Brooklyn did get over 60 inches of snow. Ben,Yehuda and I had close to the same amounts. We all ended up with over 60 inches. Brooklyn received more snow than anyone else in the metro area from the Boxing Day storm. Brooklyn received 25 inches from that storm. We got about 9 inches from the Jan 11 storm and 18 inches from the Jan 26 storm. There were several small events in between.

Yeah, you guys had a great radar for the Boxing Day storm...not surprised you ended up over 60". I didn't beat Brooklyn by very much which is unusual.

[jm1220]

Yeah, and JM, Ace, Noreaster and I also measured 60" or just over. Even Noreaster (who is extremely conservative with his measurements) was shocked with their Jan 26-27 total. The point is, if you look at the radar you know they messed it up. And they don't have a good track record at all. JConsor put out some interesting numbers showing the discrepancies involved.... it doesn't take a genius to see that the numbers were off.

Ant, you can see the issue when you look at JFK's snowcover data, they were reporting 0 inches for several days when we still had 6+ inches on the ground. So it might not be bad measuring as much as a really poor measuring location.

There's no way, absolutely no way, that JFK had only 10.3" that storm (1/26). The 16" I had here really looked like it and when combined with the few or so inches on the ground from prior, made for an awesome snowcover that lasted for weeks. I'm only a few miles from the SE runway where they measure there and there's no way there can be that kind of discrepancy when they had the same banding and intensity I had. The snow intensity that early morning was just incredible as well, some of the heaviest snow I've ever seen for so long a period. Very much like 12/30/00 which dumped a similar amount here and once more JFK was totally off with 9", and surrounding areas reporting upwards of 15"+.

12/26 was a lot harder to gauge accurately due to the up to 60mph wind, but ~18-20" seems like a good bet due to there being 14 or 15" before the last heavier 2-3 hour batch of snow came through. Not like the up to 30" in E NJ but the howling wind turned it into a true, complete whiteout here for many hours. Not an experience I'll ever forget, that's for sure. Probably the most intense true blizzard experience here since 1996, maybe even 1978. It's amazing that a blizzard can cripple a city like New York for days in 2011, but this one did. 1/12 was another good to very good storm here but it was shorter lived than places east, and we got "jipped" with 10-12" here.

I'm standing by my 59" total. Although winter essentially ended snow-wise after the 2/1 icestorm (completely unexpected and very high impact), it was still a great season, top 5 for sure. Makes up for my time served in the State College, PA snow penitentiary, that's for sure.

[A-L-E-X]

Yeah, you guys had a great radar for the Boxing Day storm...not surprised you ended up over 60". I didn't beat Brooklyn by very much which is unusual.

If you go through the various decades of snowfall measurement, it's only in the past decade that the variance in snowfall between NYC and JFK is very significant. As a matter of fact, the deviation of 20 inches between NYC and JFK is twice as much as any other year in the last 50 years (the full period of snowfall measurement history at JFK.) So Will's idea that this may have started when they started measuring on roof tops after 9/11 has merit-- this is when the discrepancies started. 02-03 was an exception, because, for one thing PD2 wasn't a windy storm.

If you go by decades..... you'd think the greatest departures between NYC and JFK would be in higher snowfall years, but in none of those years was the difference even 10 inches, not even 93-94, when we had MANY more mix and changeover events (NYC 53" JFK 46" I measured 47") than this past winter -- which was mostly snow. So being near the ocean wouldn't have a significant effect this season.

Im going to give a quick rundown from memory of big snowfall seasons (NYC ~50"+) and the differences between NYC and JFK:

1960-61...... NYC 55" JFK 59" JFK +4

1966-67...... NYC 52" JFK 45" JFK -7

1977-78...... NYC 51" JFK 49" JFK -2

1993-94..... NYC 53" JFK 46" JFK -7

1995-96..... NYC 75" JFK 69" JFK -6

2002-03..... NYC 49" JFK 58" JFK +9

2009-10..... NYC 53" JFK 47" JFK -6

2010-11..... NYC 62" JFK 42" JFK -20*

As you can see, 2010-11 sticks out as a sore thumb..... as a matter of fact, 2009-10 was somewhat undermeasured also..... we had around 56" last season. If you go through averages by decade, the greatest deviations between NYC and JFK have occurred in the past decade by far-- and this is no coincidence, considering how the measurement location has changed. The snowfall differences between NYC and JFK have for the most part been less than 10" except for the past decade.

Note that, in 1977-78, JFK finished only 2 inches behind NYC, despite the fact that it's universally considered that the Feb 1978 blizzard was vastly undermeasured at 14"

[A-L-E-X]

There's no way, absolutely no way, that JFK had only 10.3" that storm (1/26). The 16" I had here really looked like it and when combined with the few or so inches on the ground from prior, made for an awesome snowcover that lasted for weeks. I'm only a few miles from the SE runway where they measure there and there's no way there can be that kind of discrepancy when they had the same banding and intensity I had. The snow intensity that early morning was just incredible as well, some of the heaviest snow I've ever seen for so long a period. Very much like 12/30/00 which dumped a similar amount here and once more JFK was totally off with 9", and surrounding areas reporting upwards of 15"+.

12/26 was a lot harder to gauge accurately due to the up to 60mph wind, but ~18-20" seems like a good bet due to there being 14 or 15" before the last heavier 2-3 hour batch of snow came through. Not like the up to 30" in E NJ but the howling wind turned it into a true, complete whiteout here for many hours. Not an experience I'll ever forget, that's for sure. Probably the most intense true blizzard experience here since 1996, maybe even 1978. It's amazing that a blizzard can cripple a city like New York for days in 2011, but this one did. 1/12 was another good to very good storm here but it was shorter lived than places east, and we got "jipped" with 10-12" here.

I'm standing by my 59" total. Although winter essentially ended snow-wise after the 2/1 icestorm (completely unexpected and very high impact), it was still a great season, top 5 for sure. Makes up for my time served in the State College, PA snow penitentiary, that's for sure.

Im laughing at those people who, without using one iota of intelligence, would consider those airport totals correct. Those are the same people who blindly follow authority without having the power to think on their own. JFK is every much as unrepresentative for its region as DCA.

[nzucker]

Alex, very interesting analysis...JFK really shouldn't average that much less than NYC, though no doubt Central Park is a better place for snow.

Interesting to see that JFK beat Central Park in 60-61 because that wasn't as great a winter for LI/eastern suburbs as it was for the NW suburbs who had record totals. Also interesting to see the 02-03 number, JFK really got pounded in PDII.

[A-L-E-X]

Alex, very interesting analysis...JFK really shouldn't average that much less than NYC, though no doubt Central Park is a better place for snow.

Interesting to see that JFK beat Central Park in 60-61 because that wasn't as great a winter for LI/eastern suburbs as it was for the NW suburbs who had record totals. Also interesting to see the 02-03 number, JFK really got pounded in PDII.

1960-61 seems to have been a weird winter, more of a west-east winter, rather than north-south..... I believe the Mid Atlantic did really well that winter also. JFK recorded 24.1" of snow in the Feb 1961 snowstorm, which, if I remember correctly, NYC only recorded 16" We beat NYC by a similar margin in the Feb 1969 Lindsey storm, although that is not included in this list because that winter wasn't a 50+ inch winter in our area. Feb 1983 was the same story-- but that was just a one snowstorm winter (for the most part) so that doesn't get included either. Usually when you have at least one megasnowstorm, JFK has as good a chance as NYC (or better) to be in the heavier snowfall zone because there is plenty of cold air, and JFK is closer to the Ocean so they can benefit from the added moisture. I wish I had the numbers in front of me, but as I recall, JFK records more snow than NYC on average, one out of three winters, although with the measurement changes that occurred after 9/11 that may have changed.

[NorthShoreWx]

So Will's idea that this may have started when they started measuring on roof tops after 9/11 has merit-- this is when the discrepancies started. 02-03 was an exception, because, for one thing PD2 wasn't a windy storm.

I'm not so sure about that

JFK records show a peak gust of 38mph.

[A-L-E-X]

I'm not so sure about that

JFK records show a peak gust of 38mph.

Ed, you're right, that's pretty windy, but not on the 2/78, 1/96 or 12/10 scale. I should have qualified my statement with that. The latter three storms were probably exceptionally difficult to measure because the wind was frequently gusting >50 mph in those.

[NorthShoreWx]

that's pretty windy, but not on the 2/78, 1/96 or 12/10 scale.

This is true.

By the way, there is a wikipedia page about Metro Weather Service which says they were founded in 1974 and had their office at JFK for the first 15 years. I also have a newspaper article from 2/1978 that says Metro Weather Service measured 22" outside their office, although I believe that the article states that the office was in Rosedale. I thought you'd find that interesting given that the official JFK measurement is only 14".

[NorthShoreWx]

This is true.

By the way, there is a wikipedia page about Metro Weather Service which says they were founded in 1974 and had their office at JFK for the first 15 years. I also have a newspaper article from 2/1978 that says Metro Weather Service measured 22" outside their office, although I believe that the article states that the office was in Rosedale. I thought you'd find that interesting given that the official JFK measurement is only 14".

For what its worth, it is possible that a location at JFK could have a Rosedale address...looking at it on a map, its right there.

[A-L-E-X]

This is true.

By the way, there is a wikipedia page about Metro Weather Service which says they were founded in 1974 and had their office at JFK for the first 15 years. I also have a newspaper article from 2/1978 that says Metro Weather Service measured 22" outside their office, although I believe that the article states that the office was in Rosedale. I thought you'd find that interesting given that the official JFK measurement is only 14".

Thanks, Ed! Is it up on your site? I remember you mentioned it awhile back when we were all on Eastern and I was going to go to your page to see if you scanned it and put it up there, along with the excellent documentary you have on there from that memorable event (I was 4 years old at the time and all I remember was looking outside and not being able to see anything but a sea of white.)

[A-L-E-X]

For what its worth, it is possible that a location at JFK could have a Rosedale address...looking at it on a map, its right there.

Yup, Rosedale actually borders Nassau County.... I think it's basically on the other side of Rockaway Turnpike. There's a shopping center called 5 Towns Mall but when I looked them up in the Yellow Pages, it had a Rosedale address lol.

[MJO812]

I'm not so sure about that

JFK records show a peak gust of 38mph.

That was a really nice storm.

[NJwinter23]

If you go through the various decades of snowfall measurement, it's only in the past decade that the variance in snowfall between NYC and JFK is very significant. As a matter of fact, the deviation of 20 inches between NYC and JFK is twice as much as any other year in the last 50 years (the full period of snowfall measurement history at JFK.) So Will's idea that this may have started when they started measuring on roof tops after 9/11 has merit-- this is when the discrepancies started. 02-03 was an exception, because, for one thing PD2 wasn't a windy storm.

PDII was one consecutive hour shy of meeting blizzard criteria at JFK, and winds gusted 30 - 40 mph for nearly 10 hours. LGA and where i live had frequent gusts over 40 mph during the height of the storm. Away from the immediate coast though, it wasn't very windy.

[uncle W]

the period from 1/15 to 2/12 1961 across the area...

NYC.......34.1" ...17" 2/3-4

LGA........35.7"....19"

Brooklyn..40.8"...21"

Newark...44.8"...22"

Elizabeth 39.8" 21"

Staten I...39.6" 18"

Dobbs F...54.7" 22"

Mineola,,,,40.0" 20"

hemstead 34.8" 18"

[dbc]

That was a really nice storm.

It most definitely was and it was colder than that 25 degrees outside of the city itself. Definitely one of the best snowstorms ever in this area.

[MJO812]

It most definitely was and it was colder than that 25 degrees outside of the city itself. Definitely one of the best snowstorms ever in this area.

This storm happened 2 days after my uncle's wedding. I remember hearing the forecast on the radio after the wedding. They were calling for 6-12 inches for the area.

[nzucker]

the period from 1/15 to 2/12 1961 across the area...

Dobbs F...54.7" 22"

90" here that winter...

[A-L-E-X]

90" here that winter...

LOL I knew you'd respond quickly when you saw Dobbs Ferry leading the pack If I had a time machine, that would be my first weather choice..... second being 1888, third being 1947 and fourth being 1899. And then, just for the hell of it, 1915 and 1922 because I want to see a HECS in April and a 17" sleet storm lol.

[forkyfork]

It most definitely was and it was colder than that 25 degrees outside of the city itself. Definitely one of the best snowstorms ever in this area.

that was the most boring KU i've experienced

i thought even jan 05 was better

[nzucker]

LOL I knew you'd respond quickly when you saw Dobbs Ferry leading the pack If I had a time machine, that would be my first weather choice..... second being 1888, third being 1947 and fourth being 1899. And then, just for the hell of it, 1915 and 1922 because I want to see a HECS in April and a 17" sleet storm lol.

The period from the mid-January storm to 2/3/61 was just absurd in Dobbs...18" with the JFK Inauguration Blizzard, 6" the next week, 10 days in a row with lows in the single digits, and then 24" in the Feb '61 Blizzard...32" of snow cover downtown at low elevation after the blizzard!

[famartin]

Those of you in NJ, if you could also post your totals here, they'll get on my map for the Philly area...