Philadelphia's Transit Troubles

[Animal]

An end to an era, that's for sure. I remember seeing a stealth fighter fly over once and thought, "no wonder people report UFO sitings".

It would be nice if the land was turned into a park or some sort of nature preserve, but that won't happen ... no tax revenue from that. Ten years from now that site will be filled with townhouses, McMansions, CVS's, Starbucks, a Best Buy, a Walmart, and a Lowe's or Home Depot.

It is considered currently one of the most valuable parcels of land in the state.

If they turn it into homes, shops etc, rt 611 will ned a mcmansion make over which is a long time coming.

[LMolineuxLM1]

It is considered currently one of the most valuable parcels of land in the state.

If they turn it into homes, shops etc, rt 611 will ned a mcmansion make over which is a long time coming.

Can that area handle the traffic that might become of that base becoming homes and a shopping center?

[RedSky]

Can that area handle the traffic that might become of that base becoming homes and a shopping center?

No it can't. I use to live couple miles north of the base, the entire are has become a cesspool of mcmansions and shopping centers, offices. from the nice semi rural town it use to be. Gridlock everywhere a perfect example of overdevelopment run amok. RIP Horsham

might i suggest a horsham disney world of sorts of the base ground

[LMolineuxLM1]

No it can't. I use to live couple miles north of the base, the entire are has become a cesspool of mcmansions and shopping centers, offices. from the nice semi rural town it use to be. Gridlock everywhere a perfect example of overdevelopment run amok. RIP Horsham

might i suggest a horsham disney world of sorts of the base ground

Now don't give ABC/Disney any ideas now. That would be even worse.

[Parsley]

611 is a disaster. Trying to get from Willow Grove to Doylestown is a nightmare, like much of the traffic in suburban Philly (see....RT 422, RT 202, etc).

When I moved to SE PA in 2005 I was utterly shocked by the lack of mass transit in the northern suburbs of Philly. Lack of train service from Philly, 30 miles or so north and northwest is pathetic. I know the train is obtainable from Lansdale and Norristown, but those areas are not convenient for many to get to.

[famartin]

611 is a disaster. Trying to get from Willow Grove to Doylestown is a nightmare, like much of the traffic in suburban Philly (see....RT 422, RT 202, etc).

These items are telling about PennDOT vs. NJDOT:

I-95 goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Mercer.

I-78 goes from 4 lanes in Northampton to 6 lanes in Warren.

Hell, even the PA Turnpike goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Burlington.

Need I go on?

[jwilson]

611 South between County Line and say Blair Mill is actually a pretty smooth ride most of the time. I'd say the NAS bordering the western side of that route helps reduce traffic. Going the other direction is worse, and once you hit the area near the turnpike, it is a mess.

On an unrelated note, one of the roads that seriously needs work is Byberry merging onto Woodhaven road, and vice versa, in the Northeast. If you've ever attempted to reach 95 taking that route, it is horrendous, and it gets exponentially bad at or near rush hour times.

But the large influx of people in the PA burbs have essentially trounced the ability for the roads to handle the traffic it requires now. There's just too many people and too many cars.

[jwilson]

These items are telling about PennDOT vs. NJDOT:

I-95 goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Mercer.

I-78 goes from 4 lanes in Northampton to 6 lanes in Warren.

Hell, even the PA Turnpike goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Burlington.

Need I go on?

As a supplement to my post above, I would agree. PA's roads are out of date and just can't handle the traffic anymore. To play devil's advocate, however, PA has a lot more roads than NJ to maintain. PennDOT is finally working to expand the Turnpike to three lanes for all 360 miles or so. There are other areas that definitely need addressed, but either PennDOT can't get the rights or the funding to work on those projects, or simply ignores the problems altogether. I can't answer that, but certainly PA's roads are not the best.

[famartin]

As a supplement to my post above, I would agree. PA's roads are out of date and just can't handle the traffic anymore. To play devil's advocate, however, PA has a lot more roads than NJ to maintain. PennDOT is finally working to expand the Turnpike to three lanes for all 360 miles or so. There are other areas that definitely need addressed, but either PennDOT can't get the rights or the funding to work on those projects, or simply ignores the problems altogether. I can't answer that, but certainly PA's roads are not the best.

I hear ya on the mileage difference between the states... but its almost more of a "thinking ahead" sort of thing. As far as I am aware, I-78, I-95 and the PA Turnpike Extension in NJ were all built with more lanes than the adjoining section in PA.

To PA's credit, they did generally get their Interstate highways built faster than almost any other state.

[Billabong]

611 South between County Line and say Blair Mill is actually a pretty smooth ride most of the time. I'd say the NAS bordering the western side of that route helps reduce traffic. Going the other direction is worse, and once you hit the area near the turnpike, it is a mess.

I live off of Dresher Road in Horsham and use that part of 611 pretty much everyday... you're right, it's not that bad around the base but once you hit Blair Mill forget it. You run into the traffic getting on the turnpike and then Willow Grove up until you approach Abington is a disaster. I normally just use Moreland/Welsh and bypass that entire area.

[phlwx]

As a supplement to my post above, I would agree. PA's roads are out of date and just can't handle the traffic anymore. To play devil's advocate, however, PA has a lot more roads than NJ to maintain. PennDOT is finally working to expand the Turnpike to three lanes for all 360 miles or so. There are other areas that definitely need addressed, but either PennDOT can't get the rights or the funding to work on those projects, or simply ignores the problems altogether. I can't answer that, but certainly PA's roads are not the best.

Lots of mom and pop roads that are under the state's jurisdiction. A lot of the mom-and-pop roads should be turned over to counties and townships/cities/boroughs to maintain and improve, IMHO. It might mean more costs on the local level but it would probably cut down on the red tape to actually get an improvement made considering the decision would rest at a lower level of government.

Freeing those roads up might make it easier to improve the signed state highways since there would (in theory) be a bit more $ to play with.

SE PA is not easy to get around in general unless you have lots of time to spare sitting in traffic.

[JTA66]

611 is a disaster. Trying to get from Willow Grove to Doylestown is a nightmare, like much of the traffic in suburban Philly (see....RT 422, RT 202, etc).

When I moved to SE PA in 2005 I was utterly shocked by the lack of mass transit in the northern suburbs of Philly. Lack of train service from Philly, 30 miles or so north and northwest is pathetic. I know the train is obtainable from Lansdale and Norristown, but those areas are not convenient for many to get to.

Agreed. The whole regional rail system is set up from the burbs into and out of the city.

Maybe that made sense 60 years ago. Back then, most jobs were in Philly with little business/industry in the surrounding counties. But today, how many people live in Chester and commute to Montco? Or live in Bucks and commute to Chester? There's little public transportation between the burbs and no rail service ... which make me chuckle when the "greenies" suggest we use more public transit. Hey, I'd love to. But it just doesn't exist out here.

[jwilson]

Lots of mom and pop roads that are under the state's jurisdiction. A lot of the mom-and-pop roads should be turned over to counties and townships/cities/boroughs to maintain and improve, IMHO. It might mean more costs on the local level but it would probably cut down on the red tape to actually get an improvement made considering the decision would rest at a lower level of government.

Freeing those roads up might make it easier to improve the signed state highways since there would (in theory) be a bit more $ to play with.

SE PA is not easy to get around in general unless you have lots of time to spare sitting in traffic.

I agree with you on this. I worked for Warminster Twp. one summer and we were able to dedicate our resources to repaving local spurs and other roads, but we couldn't touch 611 because it is state owned, and arguably that road needed more help than the ones we were paving. Even if portions of the roads were turned over to local authorities and split up in that way, it certainly may help to get projects done quicker and more efficiently instead of waiting for state intervention. At this point I'd say the state is just overextended with the amount of roads it has to maintain.

[Parsley]

Smaller distasters that exist locally are one-lane route intersection that have no turning lane. I've seen this so many places within a few miles of my house (ex: Rt.29/Rt113, Rt113/Ridge Pike). The politics that stand in the way of creating an extra lane for turning left baffles me. Populations continue to grow in the Philly burbs.......its only going to get worse.

[Parsley]

Agreed. The whole regional rail system is set up from the burbs into and out of the city.

Maybe that made sense 60 years ago. Back then, most jobs were in Philly with little business/industry in the surrounding counties. But today, how many people live in Chester and commute to Montco? Or live in Bucks and commute to Chester? There's little public transportation between the burbs and no rail service ... which make me chuckle when the "greenies" suggest we use more public transit. Hey, I'd love to. But it just doesn't exist out here.

Its a damn shame too, I'd love to visit Center City more often, but won't due to the drive. I never realized how good I had it when I lived 3 miles north and south of rail service that got me to my parents house on Long Island into Manhattan in just over an hour.

[Thunder Road]

Agreed. The whole regional rail system is set up from the burbs into and out of the city.

Maybe that made sense 60 years ago. Back then, most jobs were in Philly with little business/industry in the surrounding counties. But today, how many people live in Chester and commute to Montco? Or live in Bucks and commute to Chester? There's little public transportation between the burbs and no rail service ... which make me chuckle when the "greenies" suggest we use more public transit. Hey, I'd love to. But it just doesn't exist out here.

There were proposals to bring regional rail service to the old Pennsylvania RR's Trenton cut-off (the one that parallels the Turnpike near Norristown and runs west-to-east across Montco from KOP to near Langhorne) but it doesn't look like anyone is serious about it anymore.

We could start an entire OT thread on the mass transit problems in the Philadelphia metro (in fact I'm actually considering doing so since it seems like a disproportionately high number of weather enthusiasts are also masss transit enthusiasts)

I wonder why SEPTA doesn't build asphalt ROW's for eco-friendly buses. That way they could travel at high speeds (60 mph) between stations, then branch off onto local roads for a brief stop at an office park before getting back on the ROW

[LMolineuxLM1]

There were proposals to bring regional rail service to the old Pennsylvania RR's Trenton cut-off (the one that parallels the Turnpike near Norristown and runs west-to-east across Montco from KOP to near Langhorne) but it doesn't look like anyone is serious about it anymore.

We could start an entire OT thread on the mass transit problems in the Philadelphia metro (in fact I'm actually considering doing so since it seems like a disproportionately high number of weather enthusiasts are also masss transit enthusiasts)

I wonder why SEPTA doesn't build asphalt ROW's for eco-friendly buses. That way they could travel at high speeds (60 mph) between stations, then branch off onto local roads for a brief stop at an office park before getting back on the ROW

I find that interesting that weather enthusiasts are also mass transit enthusiasts also.

[Thunder Road]

Move mass transit discussion here.

[NortheastPAWx]

If you think the SEPA roads are bad...some of the roads here in NEPA are just wrecks...one of the streets that's used frequently off of/towards I-81 is a wreck. They're trying to expand it but so far the plan has been half-***ed.

[Parsley]

LMAO. I had a feeling this issue would become its own thread. Sadly, I see little being done in the future to try and keep pace with the population rise in the burbs.

[famartin]

Lots of mom and pop roads that are under the state's jurisdiction. A lot of the mom-and-pop roads should be turned over to counties and townships/cities/boroughs to maintain and improve, IMHO. It might mean more costs on the local level but it would probably cut down on the red tape to actually get an improvement made considering the decision would rest at a lower level of government.

This is, of course, a description of how it works in NJ. Do the counties in PA even have their own road departments?

Freeing those roads up might make it easier to improve the signed state highways since there would (in theory) be a bit more $ to play with.

SE PA is not easy to get around in general unless you have lots of time to spare sitting in traffic.

Even NJ isn't easy. One thing about moving out to the Wild West is that its given me a new perspective on driving distance. Back East, driving anywhere that took an hour to reach seemed like a real pain. Out here, its like nothing.

[phlwx]

Smaller distasters that exist locally are one-lane route intersection that have no turning lane. I've seen this so many places within a few miles of my house (ex: Rt.29/Rt113, Rt113/Ridge Pike). The politics that stand in the way of creating an extra lane for turning left baffles me. Populations continue to grow in the Philly burbs.......its only going to get worse.

Thank PennDOT plus the need to preserve some old horse barns and taverns from the 1700's and 1800's for that.

[phlwx]

If you think the SEPA roads are bad...some of the roads here in NEPA are just wrecks...one of the streets that's used frequently off of/towards I-81 is a wreck. They're trying to expand it but so far the plan has been half-***ed.

Biz 309?

(I have family up in the Wy Val -- I hate Biz 309 with a passion and will avoid it if I can).

This is, of course, a description of how it works in NJ. Do the counties in PA even have their own road departments?

I don't believe they do. Most county functions are judicial, property registration, parks, library in some places, some minor public works, but no county DOT's.

Even NJ isn't easy. One thing about moving out to the Wild West is that its given me a new perspective on driving distance. Back East, driving anywhere that took an hour to reach seemed like a real pain. Out here, its like nothing.

A lot less people in the Wild West...the open road does wonders to reduce the pain in one's a-- while driving. Having been out as far as MT and WY I know an hour can fly by...and you also fly while spending that hour on the road.

[BucksCO_PA]

These items are telling about PennDOT vs. NJDOT:

I-95 goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Mercer.

I-78 goes from 4 lanes in Northampton to 6 lanes in Warren.

Hell, even the PA Turnpike goes from 4 lanes in Bucks to 6 lanes in Burlington.

Need I go on?

I-95 goes to 4 lanes in Mercer 2 miles before Bucks, the 4 lanes from that point to 413 in PA have very little impact on traffic flow. The moronic portion of that stretch of road is hardly any merge from RT29 onto 95 in NJ at the bottom of a hill & around a curve, deathtrap for merging traffic.

The 4 lanes of the PA turnpike between Bensalem & RT 13 absolutely has no adverse impact on traffic flow.

You can find plenty of design disasters in NJ, the turnpike going from 12 lanes to 6 at 8A is a trainwreck & the exit ramps to the tollboths at 7A is one of the worst setups I've ever seen.

[Animal]

There seems to be some sort of historic old tiny church building on the corner of 611(10 ft by 15ft plot of land) near the airforce base or up the road toward warminster when coming south on 611.

I assume this can't be moved or we will have some sort of local organization in pickets on 611 at some point.

[famartin]

I-95 goes to 4 lanes in Mercer 2 miles before Bucks,

Untrue. They go to 2 lanes right before the bridge, where the ramps to/from NJ 29 split/join.

the 4 lanes from that point to 413 in PA have very little impact on traffic flow. The moronic portion of that stretch of road is hardly any merge from RT29 onto 95 in NJ at the bottom of a hill & around a curve, deathtrap for merging traffic.

Don't blame NJDOT. The Scudders Falls Bridge, including that particular deathtrap, is under the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission. They haven't made any improvements to that bridge at all in 50 years.

The 4 lanes of the PA turnpike between Bensalem & RT 13 absolutely has no adverse impact on traffic flow.

You can find plenty of design disasters in NJ, the turnpike going from 12 lanes to 6 at 8A is a trainwreck & the exit ramps to the tollboths at 7A is one of the worst setups I've ever seen.

All of which are under construction to remedy. Still waiting for a lot of PA deathtraps to see some work.

[Thunder Road]

I-95 goes to 4 lanes in Mercer 2 miles before Bucks, the 4 lanes from that point to 413 in PA have very little impact on traffic flow. The moronic portion of that stretch of road is hardly any merge from RT29 onto 95 in NJ at the bottom of a hill & around a curve, deathtrap for merging traffic.

The 4 lanes of the PA turnpike between Bensalem & RT 13 absolutely has no adverse impact on traffic flow.

You can find plenty of design disasters in NJ, the turnpike going from 12 lanes to 6 at 8A is a trainwreck & the exit ramps to the tollboths at 7A is one of the worst setups I've ever seen.

The turnpike ramp at Route 1 is pretty bad though - as I'm sure you know. There must be 3 or 4 overturned trucks there every year.

Really I don't think it's so much one state is worse than the other, just that as a whole the US transportation infrastructure has not kept up with Europe and Asia.

[Parsley]

Wow, glad my traffic misery is spread evenly across the Delaware Valley with the rest of you SE PA folks. Like I said, the biggest shame of it all is that really keeps people from exploring other interesting parts of SE PA. For example, I love trips to New Hope, PA........but to get from where I'm at to New Hope is wayyyyyyyyyyy harder than it should be. Hence, I go maybe once a year.

[BucksCO_PA]

The turnpike ramp at Route 1 is pretty bad though - as I'm sure you know. There must be 3 or 4 overturned trucks there every year.

Really I don't think it's so much one state is worse than the other, just that as a whole the US transportation infrastructure has not kept up with Europe and Asia.

The ramp onto the turnpike from Route 1 is fine, it's two lanes for a long distance that merge into the 3rd lane which begins at that exit. The issue is the sharp curve the trucks try to negotiate way too fast, it's cleary marked with flashing warnings, issue is entirely driver error.

Overall in Bucks County we're in much better shape traffic wise than the rest of the metro area, 95, Turnpike & Route 1 all go through Lower Bucks. What ever the # of lanes those roads have in NJ are irrelevant because their current PA configuration is more than adequate to accomodate the volume of traffic in Bucks.

Additionally (4) seperate rail lines serve Bucks, there also used to be a Newtown to Fox Chase line that was served by diesel trains. Septa closed that line in 1983 because it didn't want to pay to renovate diesel trains. Since 2009 there has been an increased push, partcularly from Newtown, to totally electrify the line & reopen service.

Unfortunately the Woodhaven Road damage is already done & it's highly unlikely anything ever changes, that should have been a limited acces road all the way to Doylestown back in the 70's instead of the currrent Byberry Rd abortion. Street Road is a complete trainwreck however that mess falls solely at the feet of local townships. Approving stripmall after stripmall and subsequent traffic light after traffic light is really not condusive to smooth traffic flow.

[BucksCO_PA]

Wow, glad my traffic misery is spread evenly across the Delaware Valley with the rest of you SE PA folks. Like I said, the biggest shame of it all is that really keeps people from exploring other interesting parts of SE PA. For example, I love trips to New Hope, PA........but to get from where I'm at to New Hope is wayyyyyyyyyyy harder than it should be. Hence, I go maybe once a year.

113 to 313 to 202 is really that bad, ride should be around an hour?