Pet Peeve: "North and West of 287"

[Isotherm]

One other factor as to why a place like the North Shore of Long Island has snowfall averages pretty close to southern Westchester and the lower elevations of NE Jersey...winters are wetter out on Long Island and even though there will be times when it is raining in the former and snowing in the two latters areas , the greater winter precipitation totals on L.I. help to balance this out.  This is brought about by two reasons...one obvious...closer proximity to offshore cyclones...and two...some assistance from Long Island Sound when the fetch is between N & E.

 

The almost 65 year snowfall record at WSO Upton now reflects an annual snowfall average of 31.67"....and Upton is certainly not the snowiest location on L.I....since it has an elevation of just 101 feet...(the high spot on the Island is a nosebleed inducing 401 feet)...and Upton is located about halfway between the N. & S. Shores.

 

The WSO Upton Snowfall record:

 

 

http://www.bnl.gov/weather/4cast/MonthlySnowfall.htm

 

 

31.7" is impressive for 100ft and only several miles from the water. Using your 75ft/1" rule, theoretically the 400ft point on LI could average 35" or so.

 

This is more IMBY related, but I think the high point of Monmouth near 400ft probably averages at least 32"/yr. since the "lowland" 100ft average is now 29.0" for me (long term 29.3").

[nzucker]

Before NZ starts accuses me of heresy, I will state that Dobbs Ferry likely averages 5 or 6 inches more snow per year than the N. Shore of L.I.....since D.F. is far enough west & north to limit the taint brought about by maritime influence....and most certainly, although being closer to the water sometimes helps, more often than not, it is better to be further inland.

Yeah, I think my house's average at 350' in Dobbs Ferry is around 38" per year...the downtown co-op has averaged a little over 36" since the 40s.

 

I moved, though. I now have my own place in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which is definitely a snow hole.

[famartin]

For awhile, I used to hear some pros in the media say X (e.g., the heavier snow) will occur "north and west of the intersection of 287 and 80." This is perfectly fine, as that's N/W of a particular point. However, recently I've heard numerous pros talking about X occurring "north and west of 287" (or even just "north of 287"). 287 is a very convoluted interstate beltway that runs from about Edison, NJ (a mile from my house) westward to Somerville, then NNE-ward to about Parsippany (where it hits 80) and then Mahwah, and then it goes ESE across the Hudson and ends past White Plains. Saying north and west of 287 is meaningless if you don't pick a specific point. Technically, I'm north and west of the intersection of 287 and the NJ TPK, by about a mile. I know they mean north and west of 287/80 (or sometimes simply north of 287, which means north of the northernmost part of 287 in the Hudson Valley), but I'm sure there are casual listeners living in Central Jersey who think they're talking about near them. This is almost as bad as using the unqualified "inland from NYC" which could mean Newark, Dover or Chicago. Educated listeners know that that usually means Dover, roughly, but I'm sure there are people in Fort Lee thinking they're "inland of NYC." I know it takes a few extra seconds to clarify the information being transmitted, but c'mon, at least stop with the nonsensical geography. Rant over.

Don't think I saw this post before or responded to it, but disagree.  The majority of 287 travels northeast and then east around NYC metro.  Only the southern 15 miles cuts southeast, so the vast majority of the road works well as a boundary/demarcation/etc.

[snywx]

Yeah, I think my house's average at 350' in Dobbs Ferry is around 38" per year...the downtown co-op has averaged a little over 36" since the 40s.

 

I moved, though. I now have my own place in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, which is definitely a snow hole.

 

Ouch... Now you can hang with Metfan and enjoy snain..

[forkyfork]

this thread is so arbitrary

[Isotherm]

Ouch... Now you can hang with Metfan and enjoy snain..

 

 

Like moving from Everest to Mariana's trench...rough stuff.

[Guest Pamela]

this thread is so arbitrary

& capricious!

[Guest Pamela]

Like moving from Everest to Mariana's trench...rough stuff.

 

Tom...your metaphorical hyperbole is a veritable wonder to behold...

[jm1220]

Like moving from Everest to Mariana's trench...rough stuff.

Yup, no denying it's rough living here during most winters. Even the 2010-11 winter was hard for us to keep a high snowpack because of the few times a sneaky coastal front moves inland only a few miles and would melt huge amounts of the fallen snow because of the high humidity, even though about as much snow fell in my area as elsewhere. At one point that January, there was more than double the snowpack a few towns north of us as at my house. Even this year, there was much more snowpack after the Feb 8th blizzard north of Old Country Road. Then of course we seem to be on the wrong side of 90%+ of the marginal events while it snows away only 30 miles north or west. The fact that we get most of our snow here in bigger events is also good, because I'd rather get less snow overall through big events than more snow through nickel and dime events.

[Guest Pamela]

Its always colder

North & West

Of the city

Ain't that a pity?

[IsentropicLift]

Its always colder

North & West

Of the city

Ain't that a pity?

Other than in the case of a noreaster that's really wrapped up, like Boxing Day, it's usually better to be north and west of the city in the higher elevations. Not only is it usually colder up that way, but the elevation assists in lift.

[JBG]

Before NZ starts accuses me of heresy, I will state that Dobbs Ferry likely averages 5 or 6 inches more snow per year than the N. Shore of L.I.....since D.F. is far enough west & north to limit the taint brought about by maritime influence....and most certainly, although being closer to the water sometimes helps, more often than not, it is better to be further inland.

Dobbs is close to the Hudson River so a 360 wind can hurt there.

[RU848789]

Don't think I saw this post before or responded to it, but disagree.  The majority of 287 travels northeast and then east around NYC metro.  Only the southern 15 miles cuts southeast, so the vast majority of the road works well as a boundary/demarcation/etc.

 

287 goes for about 25 miles from where it starts in Woodbridge, NJ to where it intersects 78.  There's no doubt that "N and W of 287" does not normally include that section.  287 then goes about 50 miles from 78 to Mahwah, NJ, where it goes in a northeasterly direction and that's the section of the road I think most pros are talking about when they say "N and W of 287" (although even then, there can be quite a difference between the intersection of 287 and 78 vs. 287 and 80).  287 then goes ESE for about 30 miles from Mahwah to Port Chester NY and I don't think mets are referring to most of that section when saying "N and W of 287."

 

So, "N and W of 287" probably applies for maybe 50 of the 105 miles of the road - hence my objection to the term, functionally, as well as because it's simply an inaccurate and lazy statement, since N and W should refer to a point, not 105 miles of highway.  Are you still going to disagree? 

[famartin]

Its actually 21 road miles, a bit less as the crow flies, from the Turnpike to 78.

 

I bet they are referring to that northern loop too.  The lower Hudson Valley is essentially what is north of there, and the weather is often different (and more in line with NW NJ) there compared to south of there.

[Stormlover74]

287 goes for about 25 miles from where it starts in Woodbridge, NJ to where it intersects 78.  There's no doubt that "N and W of 287" does not normally include that section.  287 then goes about 50 miles from 78 to Mahwah, NJ, where it goes in a northeasterly direction and that's the section of the road I think most pros are talking about when they say "N and W of 287" (although even then, there can be quite a difference between the intersection of 287 and 78 vs. 287 and 80).  287 then goes ESE for about 30 miles from Mahwah to Port Chester NY and I don't think mets are referring to most of that section when saying "N and W of 287."

 

So, "N and W of 287" probably applies for maybe 50 of the 105 miles of the road - hence my objection to the term, functionally, as well as because it's simply an inaccurate and lazy statement, since N and W should refer to a point, not 105 miles of highway.  Are you still going to disagree? 

But when its used often times its on tv and there's a map included. Generally I know what they mean as they're usually referring to a rain/snow line and people who live in those areas know they are usually going to be in the jackpot in terms of snow. If the coast changes to rain, then most of central NJ will as well as NE NJ. Once you get up into Morris/Passaic/NW Bergen is when you start to notice the difference and 287 is a rough dividing line.

[LnbWx]

As a new comer to NYC/NJ, have a question. Might be even stupid. Are there any lakes/water bodies near NYC (like within 50-75 miles of NYC) that freezes over most winters? Please move it to a different thread if not appropriate here.

[Stormlover74]

As a new comer to NYC/NJ, have a question. Might be even stupid. Are there any lakes/water bodies near NYC (like within 50-75 miles of NYC) that freezes over most winters? Please move it to a different thread if not appropriate here.

Certainly but it really depends on how cold the winter is. In 2003 parts of the hudson froze over after having sub freezing temps for 10 days+ in a row. It takes that kind of cold to get lakes to freeze over. This would mostly occur over NW NJ/Orange County/Hudson Valley or CT.

[BxEngine]

As a new comer to NYC/NJ, have a question. Might be even stupid. Are there any lakes/water bodies near NYC (like within 50-75 miles of NYC) that freezes over most winters? Please move it to a different thread if not appropriate here.

How big of a body of water do you mean?

[LnbWx]

How big of a body of water do you mean?

 

A small lake or pond is perfectly acceptable.

[BxEngine]

A small lake or pond is perfectly acceptable.

Yeah plenty of them do on the colder years. Hate sounding like "back in my day" lol, but i played hockey on more than a few ponds in Rockland County when I was a kid.

[BxEngine]

If the radius is 75 miles, im sure you can find a lot of frozen ponds and lakes with no problem.

[LnbWx]

Certainly but it really depends on how cold the winter is. In 2003 parts of the hudson froze over after having sub freezing temps for 10 days+ in a row. It takes that kind of cold to get lakes to freeze over. This would mostly occur over NW NJ/Orange County/Hudson Valley or CT.

 

Thanks. Definitely thought about the lower hudson valley area. Agree that there are exceptional winters. Just looking for a lake/pond which will freeze over almost every winter (my safe guess is that it would be in a higher elevation in this area).

[LnbWx]

Yeah plenty of them do on the colder years. Hate sounding like "back in my day" lol, but i played hockey on more than a few ponds in Rockland County when I was a kid.

 

Awesome. Thanks.

[rgwp96]

As a new comer to NYC/NJ, have a question. Might be even stupid. Are there any lakes/water bodies near NYC (like within 50-75 miles of NYC) that freezes over most winters? Please move it to a different thread if not appropriate here.

every winter.  im 30 miles from the city and every winter our lakes and ponds are frozen

[JBG]

287 then goes ESE for about 30 miles from Mahwah to Port Chester NY and I don't think mets are referring to most of that section when saying "N and W of 287."

 

So, "N and W of 287" probably applies for maybe 50 of the 105 miles of the road - hence my objection to the term, functionally, as well as because it's simply an inaccurate and lazy statement, since N and W should refer to a point, not 105 miles of highway.  Are you still going to disagree?

Actually, even near its intersection with the Hutchinson River Parkway in Harrison I-287 often constitutes the rain-snow line.

[JBG]

As a new comer to NYC/NJ, have a question. Might be even stupid. Are there any lakes/water bodies near NYC (like within 50-75 miles of NYC) that freezes over most winters? Please move it to a different thread if not appropriate here.

Parts of the Hudson, and even parts of Long Island Sound. And certainly the Croton Reservoir and the huge reservoir near HPN.

[psv88]

Ponds and small lakes on long island freeze as well. Many winters the north shore harbors are completely frozen as well. I've even seen the great south bay frozen over. Not uncommon.

[famartin]

I have this feeling he wants ponds that freeze EVERY winter, and STRONG enough to skate on.  Could be wrong though.

[Isotherm]

I have this feeling he wants ponds that freeze EVERY winter, and STRONG enough to skate on.  Could be wrong though.

 

 

I mean I realize ponds/lakes in NW NJ freeze every winter, but for me personally, I'd want to go north to probably southern VT to feel comfortable messing around on them in ANY winter. It's about the thickness of that ice too, and most years I wouldn't want to jump around on the ice south of NNE.

[famartin]

I mean I realize ponds/lakes in NW NJ freeze every winter, but for me personally, I'd want to go north to probably southern VT to feel comfortable messing around on them in ANY winter. It's about the thickness of that ice too, and most years I wouldn't want to jump around on the ice south of NNE.

Exactly my point.