Pet Peeve: "North and West of 287"

[rgwp96]

The only co-op in northeastern NJ with a long-term record that has a latitude similar to the southern third of Westchester is Midland Park, NJ.  Its latitude is about halfway between Dobbs Ferry and Yonkers, and it's about 10 miles west of Yonkers.  Midland Park's elevation is 200 ft.  The southernmost corner of Westchester (south of Dobbs Ferry to the Bronx border) ranges in elevation from sea level near the coast to about 300 ft in some hills.

Since there are several missing months of data in a few years for Midland Park, we can only use years for which there is a complete snowfall record for the purposes of comparison.  Those years are 1947-49, 1952-55, 1958, 1961, 1965-67, 1969, 1972-1974, 1977-1991, and 1995-2002.  (Note, when I mention 1947, it means the 1947-48 snow season).  The average snowfall for those 39 winters in Midland Park is 27.6".  The average snowfall for those winters at Upton, Long Island is... drumroll... 29.0".

lol. you are going to use a station that is missing tons of data? Im sure even in those years with records they are missing data. also is it a second tier station meaning they take reading once a day?  They can totally have under reported snowfall because of compaction and melting.  Unlesss its a main station i dont trust any of those coops.   I highly doubt upton avgs more than midland park. highly doubt nyc avgs more than midland park.  

[nzucker]

lol. you are going to use a station that is missing tons of data? Im sure even in those years with records they are missing data. also is it a second tier station meaning they take reading once a day? They can totally have under reported snowfall because of compaction and melting. Unlesss its a main station i dont trust any of those coops. I highly doubt upton avgs more than midland park. highly doubt nyc avgs more than midland park.

No way Upton averages as much as Westchester/NE NJ except if you're talking about the last 10 years.

The Dobbs Ferry co-op has also gone downhill in recent years, had great data from 1947 through the 1980s, but I've noticed some mistakes in recent years.

[Snowbo]

287 is a good boundary imo. It separates the elevated interior from the less snowy NJ coastal plain and lower Hudson Valley very well.

287 cuts Passaic County right where elevation increases have a great effect. They often get double the snow in the upper half of the county.

[Guest Pamela]

No way Upton averages as much as Westchester/NE NJ except if you're talking about the last 10 years.

I'd consider Newark in NE NJ and they average more than them....

[ParsippanyWX]

I agree. I live practically exactly where 287 intersects I-80. It's easy to find me on a map................X marks the spot! Approx. 31 miles WNW of NYC. While my elevation here in Parsippany is only about 291' we are far enough away from the coast and the City that we always seem to do well especially with marginal events with sharp cut-offs. Before when I worked in NYC, I would take NJ Transit every morning from the Denville Station into the city. Many times when it snowed here in Morris County, I could literally start out with about 3-4 inches on the ground in a virtual winter wonderland landscape and as the train would continue traveling east I could see the snow pack start to disappear right before my eyes literally mile by mile. By the time I hit Penn Station Newark it was just wet ground and rain. Also, of course Sussex County gets more snow on average due to higher elevation and being further west from the coastal plain, but many times with coastal storms that are a little too far off the coast, we do better than Sussex County. This winter was a classic example of that. Like Goldilocks and the three bears, We seem to be just far enough in from the coast to most times avoid severe mixing issues and not too far west when storms pull away East to always be in the thick of things.

[ADKweather27]

bump.  I am moving to westchester, a mile or so north of 287. 

[Animal]

After all considerations and my past winter in Highland Lakes, I am confident that my street typically gets the most snow in New Jersey.

My reasons

1) first decent ridge line in New Jersey

2) north eastern Sussex county is a snow magnet on any coastals compared to the higher elevations out in the western sections of the county

3) Elevations 1400 +. My roof puts me near 1500 Ft 

[Isotherm]

After all considerations and my past winter in Highland Lakes, I am confident that my street typically gets the most snow in New Jersey.

My reasons

1) first decent ridge line in New Jersey

2) north eastern Sussex county is a snow magnet on any coastals compared to the higher elevations out in the western sections of the county

3) Elevations 1400 +. My roof puts me near 1500 Ft 

 

 

You're close, but if there's anyone living closer to 1800ft near High Point, I think they average at least a few inches more. Also keep in mind you might do slightly better on the coastals, but the NW corner of Sussex tends to pick up a bit more from NW-SE snow streamers via dying lake effect (and while minor per event, those do add up).

 

http://www.lightinthestorm.com/nj-snowfall

[JBG]

For awhile, I used to hear some pros in the media say X (e.g., the heavier snow) will occur "north and west of the intersection of 287 and 80." This is perfectly fine, as that's N/W of a particular point. However, recently I've heard numerous pros talking about X occurring "north and west of 287" (or even just "north of 287"). 287 is a very convoluted interstate beltway that runs from about Edison, NJ (a mile from my house) westward to Somerville, then NNE-ward to about Parsippany (where it hits 80) and then Mahwah, and then it goes ESE across the Hudson and ends past White Plains. Saying north and west of 287 is meaningless if you don't pick a specific point. Technically, I'm north and west of the intersection of 287 and the NJ TPK, by about a mile. I know they mean north and west of 287/80 (or sometimes simply north of 287, which means north of the northernmost part of 287 in the Hudson Valley), but I'm sure there are casual listeners living in Central Jersey who think they're talking about near them. This is almost as bad as using the unqualified "inland from NYC" which could mean Newark, Dover or Chicago. Educated listeners know that that usually means Dover, roughly, but I'm sure there are people in Fort Lee thinking they're "inland of NYC." I know it takes a few extra seconds to clarify the information being transmitted, but c'mon, at least stop with the nonsensical geography. Rant over.

To me it means Northern Westchester through central New Jersey, inland.

I literally live 1/2 mile south of 287 in Rockland..... I think the 287 piece in Jersey works pretty well, because you start getting pretty hilly west of there, especially if you head west on route 23... In Rockland county, there isn't really much change in topography headed north of 287... really not until you get into the Suffern area, where you start getting into the Ramapo moutains and harriman state park. Most of Rockland county doesn't have too many high elevations until you head to it's northern and western fringes, especially up by Bear Mountain and Route 6.

Even in Westchester, I've frequently experienced the rain/show line, or the line for accumulating snow, to occur right at 287 and the Hutchinson Parkway. And that's about 4 miles from Long Island Sound.

[snywx]

You're close, but if there's anyone living closer to 1800ft near High Point, I think they average at least a few inches more. Also keep in mind you might do slightly better on the coastals, but the NW corner of Sussex tends to pick up a bit more from NW-SE snow streamers via dying lake effect (and while minor per event, those do add up).

 

http://www.lightinthestorm.com/nj-snowfall

 

Awesome map! Jives well with my thinking in regards to averages up here just north of Sussex/N Passaic counties.

[JBG]

but then again, I see the problematic issue with 287 hooking around to the east down to the NJ Turnpike... If you say it lazily, it could be confusing, especially for the southern portion of 287 in NJ.. It really should only apply to a portion of that interstate. You might need to say west of 287 and north of 80 in NJ.

Frankly, that should be obvious.

[rgwp96]

for nj depends on the storm but for most times in marginal events its the north of 80 west of 287 rule. some other storms u can swing that down to rt 78. been living in the area for  my whole life so i have plenty of years to go by

[Isotherm]

Awesome map! Jives well with my thinking in regards to averages up here just north of Sussex/N Passaic counties.

 

Thanks man! Yeah you guys generally do very well up there especially w/ coastal huggers.

[snywx]

Thanks man! Yeah you guys generally do very well up there especially w/ coastal huggers.

 

Drove through Highland Lakes on my way home this evening and I must say that there is some good elevation there. I can't think of one area in NJ that has that elevation to work with. Sure you have High Point and places like that but no one lives there. These are actual communities with elevation north of 1400' in many spots there. Darkstar most def averages the most out of any poster in this forum from NJ. I wouldn't be surprised if his average is in the range of 55-60"

[NepaJames8602]

Drove through Highland Lakes on my way home this evening and I must say that there is some good elevation there. I can't think of one area in NJ that has that elevation to work with. Sure you have High Point and places like that but no one lives there. These are actual communities with elevation north of 1400' in many spots there. Darkstar most def averages the most out of any poster in this forum from NJ. I wouldn't be surprised if his average is in the range of 55-60"

  Pike County Pennsylvania reporting .

[Guest Patrick]

Its like this whole thread is just trolling for me.

[Isotherm]

Drove through Highland Lakes on my way home this evening and I must say that there is some good elevation there. I can't think of one area in NJ that has that elevation to work with. Sure you have High Point and places like that but no one lives there. These are actual communities with elevation north of 1400' in many spots there. Darkstar most def averages the most out of any poster in this forum from NJ. I wouldn't be surprised if his average is in the range of 55-60"

 

 

Looking around on google earth, you're probably right. It's pretty desolate in the high point area up past 1500 feet. Definitely more houses in that range in NE Sussex and also western Passaic County. I'll have to retract my previous comment as darkstar may very well be near the max in terms of communities w/ the highest average.

[Guest Patrick]

there are two sussex county maxes... i'm sort of on the edge of Matt's range... my backyard view is high point tower...and a vast valley in between. I caught every lake streamer that crossed the delaware...and did pretty close to Matt in totals for the bigger events last year...although the .3 or .5 more he might get in each event really does add up.  

Looking around on google earth, you're probably right. It's pretty desolate in the high point area up past 1500 feet. Definitely more houses in that range in NE Sussex and also western Passaic County. I'll have to retract my previous comment as darkstar may very well be near the max ina terms of communities w/ the highest average.

[NepaJames8602]

Looking around on google earth, you're probably right. It's pretty desolate in the high point area up past 1500 feet. Definitely more houses in that range in NE Sussex and also western Passaic County. I'll have to retract my previous comment as darkstar may very well be near the max in terms of communities w/ the highest average.

 

If you take a ride up 23, there is very few houses along route 23 near the entrance to the High Point State Park. That stone house at the entrance of the gate, is most likely the highest elevation that residents reside along 23. At least I do believe someone lives in that house? Google Earth says it sits at roughly 1,520 feet. Anything below the crest of that hill right there, is below 1,500 feet it looks. There does seem to be quite a few other residents sitting at 1,300 to 1,400 on either side of 23 going north and south back down the hill. 

[Guest Patrick]

plenty of people live along deckertown turnpike in montague.... many of the hills are very close to the elevation of high point

[NepaJames8602]

I'm one county to the west of you guys, Pike County Pennsylvania. My house sites at 1,230 feet. With various 1,300 to 1,600 foot lake communities encompassing my area just miles from me.  Unfortunately, you don't get into those 1,800 to 2,000 foot locations, until you head southwest toward the promised land area of Pike county, where the Pocono Plateau truly begins. How I would love to purchase some land out that way, unfortunately it's not realistic and it would destroy my commute. They average roughly 70 inches on the plateau, but for 10 additional inches a season, a move is not justified in my eyes.  There is quite a few 1,400 to 1,500 foot locations, just 5-8 miles up the road I have been looking at for quite some time. We will see if I can realistically make that move soon. It's truly a love hate thing living here. I average close to 60 inches of snow a season regardless. I'm typically too far west for big Nor'easters though. But the latitude and longitude saves my rear in many situations where just east into Sussex county it may not. The past few winters, I have been within 5-10 inches either side of my average, mainly from nickel and dime events. And yes, occasionally we will get some long drawn out and decaying les streamers, to luckily drop an inch or two here or there. The biggest thing with my county as a whole, is higher elevation early and late season elevation snowfalls.  

[rogue]

If you take a ride up 23, there is very few houses along route 23 near the entrance to the High Point State Park. That stone house at the entrance of the gate, is most likely the highest elevation that residents reside along 23. At least I do believe someone lives in that house? Google Earth says it sits at roughly 1,520 feet. Anything below the crest of that hill right there, is below 1,500 feet it looks. There does seem to be quite a few other residents sitting at 1,300 to 1,400 on either side of 23 going north and south back down the hill. 

 

In reality, very few homes and residents live in truly high elevations anywhere in the northeast US. Case in point is that the highest coop station / spotter (whatever they're called these days) in all of New York State is the station at Slide Mountain NY -- elevation approx. 2600'. This is obviously not the mountain summit itself which tops out over 4000', but a nearby road which has a few houses at about 2600'.  Perhaps the best spots to view high elevation weather regularly (apart from those who live and work on Mount Washington) is reserved for those souls who work at the shops and cafes at the summits of some of the ski areas -- ie. Killington Peak at 4300'. Now those folks work in a whole different world, weather-wise, and their daily commute to/from the base and nearby to the summit has a remarkable range in conditions.

[NepaJames8602]

In reality, very few homes and residents live in truly high elevations anywhere in the northeast US. Case in point is that the highest coop station / spotter (whatever they're called these days) in all of New York State is the station at Slide Mountain NY -- elevation approx. 2600'. This is obviously not the mountain summit itself which tops out over 4000', but a nearby road which has a few houses at about 2600'.  Perhaps the best spots to view high elevation weather regularly (apart from those who live and work on Mount Washington) is reserved for those souls who work at the shops and cafes at the summits of some of the ski areas -- ie. Killington Peak at 4300'. Now those folks work in a whole different world, weather-wise, and their daily commute to/from the base and nearby to the summit has a remarkable range in conditions.

I guess it would all depend on ones opinion of "true high elevation" in the Northeast. Putting it into perspective, even some of our highest peaks, are foothills to folks out west. Our NJ and Pa 1,000 to 2,000 foot elevations, are hills in comparison. You're right though, very few people live at such elevations in the Northeast. There is a few residential locations over here in the Poconos I've seen, around the 2,200 to 2,300 foot mark tops, which is reserved to the Plateau. I believe I have seen a few of what I assume are summer houses/small cabins up near Delaware county, in the Catskills. Roughly 2,500 to 3,000 foot mark, but I've never seen greater. Even Binghamton NWS states, anything below 1,000 feet in my area is considered a valley, and they label 1,500 feet and above as "higher elevations". So even at my 1,230 foot elevation here, which in reality is not even that high, is not considered higher elevations.

[snywx]

 Bottomline is anywhere that is >1000' within a 75 mile radius of NYC is considered "high" elevation. In reality its nothing more than a foothill in comparison to our neighbors up north or out west but to our neighbors along the immediate coast its def different. If I had to pick a spot within the tristate for snowfall average & snowpack retention I would have to say eastern orange county... The snow triangle ( Monroe-Harriman-Highland Mills). Many areas above 1000', Latitude/Longitude, beautiful communities, and a complete snow magnet! The highest community I can think of that is within 100 miles of NYC has to be Cragsmoor which is just north of Pine Bush, NY on Rt 52. Its known as the highest community on the Shawangunk Ridge. The town sits anywhere from 1800' to 2300'. 

[Guest Pamela]

 Bottomline is anywhere that is >1000' within a 75 mile radius of NYC is considered "high" elevation. In reality its nothing more than a foothill in comparison to our neighbors up north or out west but to our neighbors along the immediate coast its def different. If I had to pick a spot within the tristate for snowfall average & snowpack retention I would have to say eastern orange county... The snow triangle ( Monroe-Harriman-Highland Mills). Many areas above 1000', Latitude/Longitude, beautiful communities, and a complete snow magnet! The highest community I can think of that is within 100 miles of NYC has to be Cragsmoor which is just north of Pine Bush, NY on Rt 52. Its known as the highest community on the Shawangunk Ridge. The town sits anywhere from 1800' to 2300'. 

 

I'd go with Norfolk, CT in Litchfield County...98 miles from NYC...elevation 1337 feet...annual snowfall average between 90 and 95 inches...ground generally snow covered from late November through early April.

[rogue]

I'd go with Norfolk, CT in Litchfield County...98 miles from NYC...elevation 1337 feet...annual snowfall average between 90 and 95 inches...ground generally snow covered from late November through early April.

 

Would tend to agree with Norfolk CT for a snowiest place to live within 100 miles of NYC, especially if one is looking for a residential area and real town. It has both elevation and latitude, and averages close to 100" / season, as you noted. There may be a couple of spots in the Catskills with higher snowfall averages, but these tend to be in remote areas with little in the way of nearby services. An exception may be the immediate Hunter Mountain area, but this vicinity is more resort than real town.

The Pocono plateau is the closest area to NYC with residential areas having elevations of 2000' and slightly higher so they get their share of snow, although a good 20%+ lower than the favored areas of northwest CT and Catskills. For even closer proximity to NYC and high snowfalls relative to the coast, Highland Lakes NJ and vicinity may take the prize as the residential areas at / above 1200'  probably average 60" to 65" / season.

Incidentally, higher elevation areas get enhanced snowfalls, but there are also some not so welcome elements -- ice storms are more frequent and occasionally severe, rainfall is heavier, and dense fog occurs very frequently when it rains.

[TwcMan]

Aren't there a few communities in the adirondack park that sits above an elevation of 2500 feet? Lake George, Speculator, Stratford, etc..?

[rygar]

Loved growing up in Highland Lakes.  Sneaking out onto the Hidden Valley ski slopes to sleigh ride at night was a great time.

[Guest Pamela]

One other factor as to why a place like the North Shore of Long Island has snowfall averages pretty close to southern Westchester and the lower elevations of NE Jersey...winters are wetter out on Long Island and even though there will be times when it is raining in the former and snowing in the two latters areas , the greater winter precipitation totals on L.I. help to balance this out.  This is brought about by two reasons...one obvious...closer proximity to offshore cyclones...and two...some assistance from Long Island Sound when the fetch is between N & E.

 

The almost 65 year snowfall record at WSO Upton now reflects an annual snowfall average of 31.67"....and Upton is certainly not the snowiest location on L.I....since it has an elevation of just 101 feet...(the high spot on the Island is a nosebleed inducing 401 feet)...and Upton is located about halfway between the N. & S. Shores.

 

The WSO Upton Snowfall record:

 

 

http://www.bnl.gov/weather/4cast/MonthlySnowfall.htm

[Guest Pamela]

One other factor as to why a place like the North Shore of Long Island has snowfall averages pretty close to southern Westchester and the lower elevations of NE Jersey...winters are wetter out on Long Island and even though there will be times when it is raining in the former and snowing in the two latters areas , the greater winter precipitation totals on L.I. help to balance this out.  This is brought about by two reasons...one obvious...closer proximity to offshore cyclones...and two...some assistance from Long Island Sound when the fetch is between N & E.

 

The almost 65 year snowfall record at WSO Upton now reflects an annual snowfall average of 31.67"....and Upton is certainly not the snowiest location on L.I....since it has an elevation of just 101 feet...(the high spot on the Island is a nosebleed inducing 401 feet)...and Upton is located about halfway between the N. & S. Shores.

 

The WSO Upton Snowfall record:

 

 

http://www.bnl.gov/weather/4cast/MonthlySnowfall.htm

 

Before NZ starts accuses me of heresy, I will state that Dobbs Ferry likely averages 5 or 6 inches more snow per year than the N. Shore of L.I.....since D.F. is far enough west & north to limit the taint brought about by maritime influence....and most certainly, although being closer to the water sometimes helps, more often than not, it is better to be further inland.